Next Step In Continued Improvement

[Asator]

Hello,

I'm a relatively new brewer, six 5-gallon extract brews under my belt. I feel like I'm steadily improving with each batch. I've come a long way from my first batch, a pale ale that ended up getting dumped, that was brewed on an electric stove in a 3 gallon stockpot.

I now have an 8-gallon kettle and a propane burner, to which I credit more of my improvements than to my increased knowledge and skill. My last two batches have been full boil, and I've used liquid yeast on both of them. They are pretty good, but still not where I want to be.

From talking to an acquaintance with much more experience and skill, he suggested I move into all-grain if I want to continue to see improvements. With my current setup, the best I could do is about a 3-gallon BIAB, which I'm very open to. He also suggested some new equipment I should purchase. In your opinion, which of these options would (hopefully) give me the ability to continue improving my beers?

1) Go to all-grain BIAB. I can only do 3-gallon batches BIAB batches unless I drop a bunch of money on new equipment, which I can't really do at the moment.
2) Get a wort chiller. I've been doing ice baths for my worts up until now. Even the full boil batches cooled down relatively quickly. They say a chiller will bring it down much faster, but is it really necessary?
3) Get a yeast-starter kit (stir plate and all). I've had very good results with my two Wyeast Smack Pack batches, but from what I've been reading, I haven't been pitching enough yeast just using a single pack.

I appreciate any ideas on this. If you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears!

 

[myndflyte]

If you wanted to move to all grain, I think BIAB is a great way to go. I started with the traditional mash tun but have since moved to BIAB and love it. I think you should start with number 1 and get yourself a BIAB bag and just start with 3 gallon batches. A wort chiller is a nice to have but if you're only doing 3 gallon batches, an ice bath will suffice for now.

As for a yeast starter kit, I think that's the last thing you buy at this point. All I do is get a 1 gallon glass jug and make starters in that. Whenever I walk past I give it a good shake and they have worked just fine.

 

[cloudybrewer]

As for a yeast starter kit, I think that's the last thing you buy at this point.

And if you're only doing three gallon batches, a smack pack by itself should be plenty of yeast if it hasn't been abused.

 

[BigBlueDog]

What do you feel is missing from your extract batches? Have you brewed any recipes that included steeping grains? That might bring some complexity to the flavor profile you're looking for.

It may be that you need to focus on your fermentation process. As myndflyte suggests, you can prepare yeast starters without expensive equipment. How are you managing your fermentation temps?

 

[Asator]

What do you feel is missing from your extract batches? Have you brewed any recipes that included steeping grains? That might bring some complexity to the flavor profile you're looking for.

It may be that you need to focus on your fermentation process. As myndflyte suggests, you can prepare yeast starters without expensive equipment. How are you managing your fermentation temps?

Big Blue, that's another thing I've realized I could probably improve. I'm fermenting in my basement, which is around 72 degrees right now. I'm not doing anything specific to ensure a proper fermentation temperature. The local guy I talked to told me about something I could put on my chest freezer to maintain a specific fermentation temp. I told him my wife wouldn't be happy about all of her frozen stuff coming up to fermentation temp, haha.

The two that I brewed with liquid yeast seem to have turned out better than the ones I used US-05 for. One just went in the bottle and the other is going to be in secondary for about 6 weeks. Both smell wonderful and taste better, even warm and without carbonation, than any of my other ones. Maybe I'll be happier once I can drink these. Or maybe the liquid yeast thing is in my head. Do you use dry or liquid or both?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Hello,

I'm a relatively new brewer, six 5-gallon extract brews under my belt. I feel like I'm steadily improving with each batch. I've come a long way from my first batch, a pale ale that ended up getting dumped, that was brewed on an electric stove in a 3 gallon stockpot.

I now have an 8-gallon kettle and a propane burner, to which I credit more of my improvements than to my increased knowledge and skill. My last two batches have been full boil, and I've used liquid yeast on both of them. They are pretty good, but still not where I want to be.

From talking to an acquaintance with much more experience and skill, he suggested I move into all-grain if I want to continue to see improvements. With my current setup, the best I could do is about a 3-gallon BIAB, which I'm very open to. He also suggested some new equipment I should purchase. In your opinion, which of these options would (hopefully) give me the ability to continue improving my beers?

1) Go to all-grain BIAB. I can only do 3-gallon batches BIAB batches unless I drop a bunch of money on new equipment, which I can't really do at the moment.
2) Get a wort chiller. I've been doing ice baths for my worts up until now. Even the full boil batches cooled down relatively quickly. They say a chiller will bring it down much faster, but is it really necessary?
3) Get a yeast-starter kit (stir plate and all). I've had very good results with my two Wyeast Smack Pack batches, but from what I've been reading, I haven't been pitching enough yeast just using a single pack.

I appreciate any ideas on this. If you have any other suggestions, I'm all ears!

I began with extract for the first couple batches and have moved on to BIAB. It's fun and really not that much harder. My setup currently can also only support smaller batches of BIAB, but I figured I'd go that route while I refine my process. I bought a couple of 3 gallon Better Bottles and have been doing 2.5 gallon batches. I actually love it, I can brew more often and really work on refining my beer. If I eff a batch up I don't have as many to drink. My last 2 batches I've gotten into modifying my water profile. I actually have pretty much what I would need to go outside and do 5 gallon BIAB batches, besides a wort chiller, but I just don't have any desire to until I start nailing recipes I really like and want to make 50 beers of.

My advice would be #1 or #2, depending on whether you feel like tinkering with smaller batches or just want to continue doing 5 gallon batches.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm fermenting in my basement, which is around 72 degrees right now. I'm not doing anything specific to ensure a proper fermentation temperature.

Being able to ferment at around 67 (wort temperature) will have a big impact on both your extract based beers and your BIAB/"all-grain" beers.

Given the budget you have, a move to 2.5 gal - 3.0 gal batch sizes so that you can control fermentation temperature, should have big positive impact on the beer. Then, as you have the money to spend on the hobby, add equipment to move to 5.5 gallon batches.

 

[parjay]

I am still doing extract, and I don't have the equipment to do full volume boils yet.

About 4 batches ago I started using an immersion chiller and found my beers were cleaner looking, but my wife said they all still had a flavor that she found off putting.

My last two batches were both fermented in a chest freezer that afforded me a way to maintain beer temp instead of air temp. While I am only about 10 batches in and know that practice is making me a better brewer, I really feel that controlling temps has dramatically improved the flavor of my brews.

 

[GPP33]

BIAB>starters>ferm temp control

BIAB would be my first step, I just don't like the idea of starting with extract. It feels like starting with boxed mac and cheese, it's not really YOUR beer (sorry if I offended anyone with that comment). AG will give you a lot more flexibility. I'd use a bag that's sized for future growth but for now 3 gal is probably a good size.

Starters before ferm control only because you are already there. A starter is just a small extract batch without the hops. Do it in a mason jar and shake it until you get around to buying or building a stir plate.

Ferm control last only because it's a bigger investment but well worth it. In the mean time a large tub of water combined with an aquarium heater and some frozen water bottles can get you very close to ideal ferm temps with really good control.

You can address them all with very little investment.

As for the immersion chiller, they are nice to speed up the brew day but they aren't a golden nugget to great beer. There's lots of guys who supposedly make good beer with the "no chill" method. I think an ice bath is plenty, especially for 3 gal batches.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

BIAB>BIAB would be my first step,

+2. In the late 2010s, with the homebrewing knowledge available, it's reasonable to move to BIAB quickly.

I just don't like the idea of starting with extract. It feels like starting with boxed mac and cheese, it's not really YOUR beer (sorry if I offended anyone with that comment). AG will give you a lot more flexibility.

-1. It's much more interesting to read someone talking passionately about something they like.

but let's not overlook this:

In the mean time a large tub of water combined with an aquarium heater and some frozen water bottles can get you very close to ideal ferm temps with really good control.

which is pretty easy to implement on a budget.

So, overall, a +1.

 

[Tribe Fan]

I use a 8 gal bayou classic turkey fryer for BIAB. My 2 cents on budget priorities:
1. BIAB bag - Must have
2. Wort chiller - Really should have
3. Grain crusher - You will absolutely want

I use Beersmith and design my recipes for 4.5 gal batch sizes with a mash eff of 75% and BH eff of 65%and generally get almost 4 gal into the fermenter at targeted gravity +/- couple of points. I'll wind up bottling 3 to 3.5 gallons after leaving trub gunk behind. I mash in with 6 gallon plus 1 quart and boil for 60 minutes.

Every setup is a little different, but this will get you in the ballpark. It took me about 5 batches to get the optimal strike water amount that is easy to measure, repeatable, not too thick and not too thin. My efficiency went up every batch then settled at 75%. I could go up higher with a finer crush. Measuring your efficiency on your first few batches is really key to designing your own custom sized recipes.

A love this batch size because the kettle is never topped out, lifting the grains is safe and easy manually and everything gets up to temp in a reasonable amount of time. I get at least 24-30 pints of beer per batch which is plenty for me. The only two man job is emptying the kettle (which has now been cooled in place to 75F with your new wort chiller) without a valve. I do it easily with my wife.

Only big downside is if you keg into corney kegs, you're never filling them up and every recipe on the planet has a 5 gal version, so you have to convert.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

BIAB>starters>ferm temp control
BIAB would be my first step, I just don't like the idea of starting with extract. It feels like starting with boxed mac and cheese, it's not really YOUR beer (sorry if I offended anyone with that comment). AG will give you a lot more flexibility. I'd use a bag that's sized for future growth but for now 3 gal is probably a good size.

I think extract is really good to start with at least, because it's simpler. Almost everyone eventually moves on to AG though. Less variables simpler process with extract, so you can focus on figuring out the boil/chilling/pitching part. Then when you feel like it you can move on to all-grain and try to figure out a ton of new variables related to mashing. People will move on at their own pace. My first 3 batches were extract partial boils, 4th was extract full boil(2.5 gal), 5th was on to BIAB grain. My father-in-law has been brewing for 4 or 5 years and still does extract because it simpler and faster. To each their own

 

[eltorrente]

Fermentation temperature control was, by FAR, the biggest improvement to by beer quality. It made more of an impact than everything, including going all-grain, starters, oxygen, ph meter, etc, etc.

 

[mulletmaster]

Get a cooler or tub and make a swamp cooler in your basement. Fill it with water and reusable ice blocks to bring the fermenter ambient temp down. This can all be done cheap especially if you have a container to use already. It may take some pratice to get the ice schedule down but that should help with consistency .

 

[seatazzz]

OP, you're going to find most of us will mention fermentation temperature control as THE biggest improvement in their brewing. You can find a cheap refrigerator on Craigslist (or your local version, or even garage sales, at this time of year they're like mushrooms, popping up everywhere). That way you don't annoy your wife and with a temperature controller (you can find them for less than $40) your beer will be MUCH happier and will improve dramatically. Not only that, with a ferment fridge you can enter the exciting world of cold-crashing to clear your beer faster. And can lager when you get to that point!

 

[LittleRiver]

We make wort (sugar water), but it is yeast that make beer. To make better beer provide the best environment for your yeast to do their work. That means fermenting at the ideal temperature for the yeast you are using.

When I started I found a large(ish) wine fridge on Craigslist for $75. I bought an Inkbird ITC-100F temp controller for about $15 on Amazon, made an enclosure for it, and wired it up. For a heat source I put an incandescent light bulb with a tin can over it. Total expenditure was less than $100.

 

[WywardSon]

What do you feel is missing from your extract batches? Have you brewed any recipes that included steeping grains? That might bring some complexity to the flavor profile you're looking for.

It may be that you need to focus on your fermentation process. As myndflyte suggests, you can prepare yeast starters without expensive equipment. How are you managing your fermentation temps?

I consider myself as still learning a lot. I totally agree, ferm temps! Everyone I have talked to says mind the ferm temps to the style your brewing.

 

[dmtaylor]

Option 1, BIAB.

Ferm temp control is only important to the point that you generally want to keep temps below 70 F. A wet t-shirt and fan will take temp down about 5 F.

 

[Asator]

My 2 cents on budget priorities:
1. BIAB bag - Must have
2. Wort chiller - Really should have
3. Grain crusher - You will absolutely want

Tribe Fan, thanks for that. You mentioned the grain crusher, it's something I was really thinking about if I was moving into all-grain/BIAB.

I have enjoyed extract brewing quite a bit, but I think I'll just dive headfirst into BIAB and have a couple of bad batches.

I've seen a few mills for about $100, anyone have any thoughts for a grain mill on a budget?

 

[Asator]

We make wort (sugar water), but it is yeast that make beer. To make better beer provide the best environment for your yeast to do their work. That means fermenting at the ideal temperature for the yeast you are using.

Thanks LittleRiver, I appreciate the input. I do have a junky wine cooler downstairs, but it has two settings, "red" (50 something degrees) and "white" (lower 40s). The cooler does show the current temp but literally has the two red and white settings. Do you think I could use a temp controller on this thing? Only problem is I can't fit a 5 gallon carboy in it. I do have a three gallon I could use.

Maybe I should just get a fridge. That seems like a worthwhile investment.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've seen a few mills for about $100, anyone have any thoughts for a grain mill on a budget?

A blender, a cup at a time. It's long and tedious, takes about 45 minutes to "crush" enough for a 3-gallon batch, but it's all I ever did for the first ~4 years that I brewed all-grain, and golldarnit, it worked just friggin fine, naysayers be damned!

 

[LittleRiver]

... wine cooler ... Do you think I could use a temp controller on this thing?

Absolutely. What I did was disconnect the wires coming from the compressor to the built-in controller. I put a standard 3 prong male plug on the compressor wires. I built my controller box with an outlet in the back labeled "cooling", to which I plugged in the compressor.

If you don't want to build your own controller box, the Inkbird ITC-308 is a good and reasonably priced "plug and play" temp controller. I have one on a full size fridge and it works fine.

 

[Brewtallica]

Just throwing it out there, you are not limited to 3 gal batches with a 8 gallon kettle. I have a 8.5 gallon that I got with a morebeer starter kit and I just did a 6 gallon batch with it. I start with a mash that will fill my kettle to the 7-7.5 gallon mark with grains. I use the priceless BIAB calculator to determine volume with grains vs mash thickness. Once I'm done mashing, I lift the bag and slide a big colander under it. It fits perfectly in my kettle.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VZ6NJA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I sparge and rinse the grains slowly while it drains into the kettle. Once I used all my calculated sparge water I squeeze the bag and move it and the colander over a 5 gallon bucket. Once the boil starts I have maybe a quart that drained into the bucket that I dump into the kettle.

 

[davidabcd]

A blender, a cup at a time. It's long and tedious, takes about 45 minutes to "crush" enough for a 3-gallon batch, but it's all I ever did for the first ~4 years that I brewed all-grain, and golldarnit, it worked just friggin fine, naysayers be damned!

Well done on crushing it! Question: Am I lucky that I have access to the mill at both LHBS? Is that uncommon? Thanks.

 

[davidabcd]

The two that I brewed with liquid yeast seem to have turned out better than the ones I used US-05 for. One just went in the bottle and the other is going to be in secondary for about 6 weeks.

Something that may help is you could ditch the secondary (if you're not adding something like fruit). That way there is less exposure to air and chance of contamination. It's an interesting subject and worth looking into, I think.
Cheers

 

[dmtaylor]

Well done on crushing it! Question: Am I lucky that I have access to the mill at both LHBS? Is that uncommon? Thanks.

Almost every LHBS has a mill, and they ALL set the gap WAY too wide so they can sell more grain since the poor crush results in poor efficiency, which makes them more money. Short term, use the blender. Long term, get your own mill and set it they way it should be set.

 

[eltorrente]

Well done on crushing it! Question: Am I lucky that I have access to the mill at both LHBS? Is that uncommon? Thanks.

It's very common, actually. While convenient, many people opt to get their own grain crusher, because you can fine tune the crush to your particular setup. Often the LHBS won't crush it quite as fine as you want, which reduces efficiency.

 

[davidabcd]

Almost every LHBS has a mill, and they ALL set the gap WAY too wide so they can sell more grain since the poor crush results in poor efficiency, which makes them more money.

Well, there you go. Thanks. I was wondering about that.

I don't have much of a system. I do extract so I use small amounts of grain. Even when there's "a lot" called for in the recipe, it isn't a lot. I'm guessing it doesn't matter much how correctly my grain is milled by the LHBS for extract.
I am willing to blend, though, as an experiment. I'm quite happy with my beer but if it could be better, I'd do it.
Twice I got some grain that I requested be milled (it wasn't) so I had to make a separate trip to get that done. Now, if it happens again, instead of panicking or considering my coffee grinder as an option, I shall pull out the blender.

 

[Rodent]

IME the LHBS doesn't set their mill gap with the intent to sell a few more ounces of grain, they set their mill gap to ensure that those using it mitigate the risk of a stuck sparge.

Note that despite it being repeatedly parroted here on HBT, that 4oz - 8oz of added grain per customer due to a .035" crush @ ~$0.10/oz is hardly a profit margin success plan for the LHBS

 

[Blazinlow86]

IME the LHBS doesn't set their mill gap with the intent to sell a few more ounces of grain, they set their mill gap to ensure that those using it mitigate the risk of a stuck sparge.

Note that despite it being repeatedly parroted here on HBT, that 4oz - 8oz of added grain per customer due to a .035" crush @ ~$0.10/oz is hardly a profit margin success plan for the LHBS

I agree. Cheers

 

[GPP33]

IME the LHBS doesn't set their mill gap with the intent to sell a few more ounces of grain, they set their mill gap to ensure that those using it mitigate the risk of a stuck sparge.

Note that despite it being repeatedly parroted here on HBT, that 4oz - 8oz of added grain per customer due to a .035" crush @ ~$0.10/oz is hardly a profit margin success plan for the LHBS

This is probably more accurate. I have two LHBS and both do a fine job, if I think it’s a little coarse I’ll run it through again. Personally I’m probably 500 batches out before I’d save $100 on a slightly finer crush. Not with it for my situation.

 

[Lefou]

Almost every LHBS has a mill, and they ALL set the gap WAY too wide so they can sell more grain since the poor crush results in poor efficiency, which makes them more money. Short term, use the blender. Long term, get your own mill and set it they way it should be set.

+1 on the blender. It works especially well for wheat.
Wheat doesn't have a husk, so you can literally turn it to flour. Unkilned, low Lovibond wheat malt typically has a high enzyme content so it will contribute to higher mash conversion efficiencies if you get your mash temperature dead-on.
When using wheat in BIAB brews like this , it tends to convert quickly, but get a good "hot break" during the boil and be careful not to use too much wheat in a thick mash - it can thicken the mash and make draining wort troublesome.

 

[Lefou]

Note that despite it being repeatedly parroted here on HBT, that 4oz - 8oz of added grain per customer due to a .035" crush @ ~$0.10/oz is hardly a profit margin success plan for the LHBS

I agree. Cheers

One of the brewshops I frequent typically gave me poorly crushed grains. To put it mildly, my mash efficiency sucked until I figured things out and people here gave me the bright idea to fix the issue - I'm too cheap to get a mill, but I CAN steal and utilize an old beaten up blender we've used for years.
Was the LBHS I mentioned using the same mill to do their customer "onsite brewing" with grain?
Maybe, but their profit margin went up and many of the customers brewing onsite used extract for 15 gallon batches fermented in-house.
Where there's a will, there's always a way. As a low frills seasonal brewer I will snatch pennies if I can.

 

[divrack]

You simply must go full lodo!

 

[Lefou]

LMAO

 

[Transamguy77]

I’m going to eco what Brewtalica said, I started AG with a 7.5 gallon kettle and BIAB also and made 5 gallon batches.

I just started with 5 gallons in the kettle and rinsed with 2 more gallons in a 5 gallon pot the pulled, drained and squeezed then added that to the kettle after some boil off. Worked great.

And as far as temp control I would just get a full size fridge with a temp controller then when your not fermenting you can use it to store your finished beer or turn it into a kegerator at a later time.

I personally feel a wort chiller is a valuable tool in saving time and the added safety of not moving a pot with 5 gallons of boiling liquid on a brew day.

 

[mongoose33]

My favorite approach: continuous quality improvement.

Keep doing it and you'll like where you end up.

 

[Asator]

I’m going to eco what Brewtalica said, I started AG with a 7.5 gallon kettle and BIAB also and made 5 gallon batches.

I just started with 5 gallons in the kettle and rinsed with 2 more gallons in a 5 gallon pot the pulled, drained and squeezed then added that to the kettle after some boil off. Worked great.

So for a five gallon brew, you start with 5 gallons in your large kettle, then heat the two gallons in a second container, then pour over the bag of grains after the you mash for however long at the appropriate temp. Then pull the bag, let it drain/squeeze it into the secondary pot, and add that after the water level will allow it?

I'm sorry if I seem dense!

 

[Brewtallica]

I can't comment on Transamguy77's process put I use this calculator...
https://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/#Advanced
After entering all pertinent data, you can see how much volume you mash before sparge. It's a bit of a learning curve, but it will tell you how hot to get your strike water if you set the desired mash temp. Depending upon how much grain you have, you can adjust the mash thickness to get you mash to fit in your kettle. Then, it will tell you how much sparge water. Once you mess with it and get volumes in range you will heat you sparge water, put the bag in, stir in grains, mash for 1 hr (or however long you want), pull bag, pour sparge water over grains (I set my bag inside a colander that fits on top of my kettle), squeeze and drain into kettle, start the boil and the rest is same as an extract batch. If I do a moderate squeeze I only lose about .08 gal/lbs of grain. You will have to do a test batch to see what your loss rates are. I hope that cleared things up a bit. Cheers

 

[Transamguy77]

So for a five gallon brew, you start with 5 gallons in your large kettle, then heat the two gallons in a second container, then pour over the bag of grains after the you mash for however long at the appropriate temp. Then pull the bag, let it drain/squeeze it into the secondary pot, and add that after the water level will allow it?

I'm sorry if I seem dense!

Yes that’s it for the most part, I would “dunk” sparge in the other 5 gallon pot and then take that runnings and add it back.

There are calculators online but I like to keep things simple and once you are familiar with your system and take good notes you’ll know that with x pound of grain you will add x gallons of water.

I would add back the “runnings” usually after the first hot break because it usually won’t foam up as much as it comes back up to the boil.