How much water is needed to make your wort

[Jack_0106]

Howdy folks!

I've brewed a few gallon batches of mead/ciders and I've done one beer kit. You know the gloopy stuff in the can. It's all turned out pretty well and I'd like to have a go at all grain biab. I've got the 5 gallon FVs but I have one question that's holding me back.

How much water do you need to make your wort?

Do you boil your grains in let's say 3 gallons and then top it off to make 5? If you need to boil 5g or more, I wouldn't even know where to get a pot big enough to hold 5g and all the grains.

Any help much appreciated!

 

[Want2Brew]

I suppose it would be possible to do a partial AG brew but you would have to create a higher gravity wort than than your intended original gravity for the whole batch if that makes sense? The math would make my head hurt. Normally, in AG brewing, be it biab or not you would do a full boil after the grains have been removed. In other words, don’t boil the grains! Water required would = desired batch size + grain absorption + system dead space + boil off.

 

[mac_1103]

Most folks who BIAB either do a full volume mash or a roughly half volume mash and a dunk sparge. I could be wrong, but I don't think too many people intentionally mash and boil thick and then top up. Personally, I usually mash in a five gallon igloo cooler (for temp stability) and dunk sparge. I wind up with a little over 7 gallons of wort pre-boil and 5.5 gallons into the fermenter. For bigger grain bills I mash in my ten gallon kettle.

And BTW, boiling the grains is pretty advanced stuff.

 

[mac_1103]

Actually, I take (some of) that back. There are folks who brew higher than target original gravity and then dilute. Maybe some of them will weigh in.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

1.5 quarts of water per 1 pound of grain in your mash, then sparge til you get your desired volume. Don't boil grains, mash at 148f to 154f Depending on recipe.

 

[lumpher]

Don't boil grains. Nasty stuff. Don't get them over about 170f, or you extract tannin. Bitter stuff. If you want to do partial boils, then top off, stick with extract or partial mash. Excellent beers can be made with those methods. I often do extracts and could just as easily use partial boils with top-off instead of full boils. Drinking a really good Bells 2 Hearted clone now using extract.

 

[mac_1103]

Don't boil grains. Nasty stuff. Don't get them over about 160f, or you extract tannin. Bitter stuff.

And yet many (most?) recipes call for mashout at 170F and there's this thing called decoction.

 

[doug293cz]

With all grain brewing, mashing and then boiling for a higher than desired SG, and then diluting to your desired OG will lead to lower overall efficiency (due to lower lauter efficiency as the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio increases.) You can do it, but you will need to use more grain than brewers who do full volume boils.

Brew on

 

[lumpher]

If you're going to back-sweeten with anything fermentable, like more must, you need to stabilize the fermented stuff with potassium metabisulfite and potassium sulfate before adding it. Otherwise, it will just ferment that too. As far as setting aside some of it to backsweeten with later, it's best to freeze that, then when when you're ready to use it later, warm it up to 170 or so for 15 minutes before using it. Don't boil it.

And yet many (most?) recipes call for mashout at 170F and there's this thing called decoction.

Oops... I meant 170.... late night, a few beers, tiny phone keyboard... post corrected. It's good I have fine folks to keep me honest...

 

[Jack_0106]

I suppose it would be possible to do a partial AG brew but you would have to create a higher gravity wort than than your intended original gravity for the whole batch if that makes sense? The math would make my head hurt. Normally, in AG brewing, be it biab or not you would do a full boil after the grains have been removed. In other words, don’t boil the grains! Water required would = desired batch size + grain absorption + system dead space + boil off.

Yeah boil the grains was not the best choice of words, more of a steep! But yeah I know exactly what your saying regarding the dilution of wort to the proper gravity - that was my concern. So best practice is to get a pot or electric boiler that will hold over 5 gallons?

This is what I think is the correct approach then:

• Say 6 gallons of water to a rolling boll, cut the heat and steep grains
• remove grains and boil for however long is required
• Should leave e around 5gallons then due to evaporation and grain soakage?

 

[Jack_0106]

Most folks who BIAB either do a full volume mash or a roughly half volume mash and a dunk sparge. I could be wrong, but I don't think too many people intentionally mash and boil thick and then top up. Personally, I usually mash in a five gallon igloo cooler (for temp stability) and dunk sparge. I wind up with a little over 7 gallons of wort pre-boil and 5.5 gallons into the fermenter. For bigger grain bills I mash in my ten gallon kettle.

And BTW, boiling the grains is pretty advanced stuff.

The problem for me is sourcing a pot/boiler big enough. Even the home brew shops near me (Ireland) only seem to stock 3 gallon pots/electric boilers.

I want to have a go at doing it from scratch because while those beer kits are fun, easy and impress the normies - I didn't learn anything, just dump into a bucket, add water and yeast.

 

[Jack_0106]

1.5 quarts of water per 1 pound of grain in your mash, then sparge til you get your desired volume. Don't boil grains, mash at 148f to 154f Depending on recipe.

Do you mean do it in batches? So for an example, a recipe that calls for 10lbs of grain, I could do 2ish batches roughly 5 quarts water with 5lbs of grain in each and dump them into the fermenter?

Also, I see you're in Duncannon, I'm up in Dublin so if you've tips on where best to get a big enough boiler for full volume mash let me know!

 

[RM-MN]

Actually, I take (some of) that back. There are folks who brew higher than target original gravity and then dilute. Maybe some of them will weigh in.

Some of us do brew to a higher gravity due to pot size constraints and then dilute to get the intended OG. Yesterday I forgot to dilute. I was expecting an OG of about 1.050 but now have about 1.075. I suspect I will notice when drinking that beer.

 

[RM-MN]

Don't boil grains. Nasty stuff. Don't get them over about 170f, or you extract tannin. Bitter stuff. If you want to do partial boils, then top off, stick with extract or partial mash. Excellent beers can be made with those methods. I often do extracts and could just as easily use partial boils with top-off instead of full boils. Drinking a really good Bells 2 Hearted clone now using extract.

Boiling the grains is fine provided the pH is lower than 6.0. It takes the combination of high pH and high temperature to extract a significant amount of tannins. That combination usually only occurs when over-sparging as a normal mash will be below 5.7pH. If that were not the case those who do decoctions would have undrinkable beer.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah boil the grains was not the best choice of words, more of a steep! But yeah I know exactly what your saying regarding the dilution of wort to the proper gravity - that was my concern. So best practice is to get a pot or electric boiler that will hold over 5 gallons?

This is what I think is the correct approach then:

• Say 6 gallons of water to a rolling boll, cut the heat and steep grains
• remove grains and boil for however long is required
• Should leave e around 5gallons then due to evaporation and grain soakage?

You have to understand what mashing is and not only steeping, if you want to do all grain. Why which temperature and at which time. Look it up!

 

[Alan Reginato]

Get a bigger kettle. Use an app to do the maths for you (there are many free in the internet, I use Calcoliamo Birra. Beersfriend site is nice, too)
Alway leave around 15% of free space in the kettle. BTW, in the fermentor too.
I suggest start with BIAB and a electric element. Not even need a temp controler. Just a good thermometer.

You don't need to boil it first. Because you will do it later. Only need to use dechlorinated water. Using tap water and a cheap carbon filter is enough.

Keep things simple and be sure you understand all the steps before start. They're plenty of material in the internet.

Good luck!

 

[mac_1103]

Say 6 gallons of water to a rolling boll, cut the heat and steep grains

No. You're going to need to mash at something in the 65-68C range. For an hour or so. In the simplest cases.

The problem for me is sourcing a pot/boiler big enough.

How are your online options over there? I won't waste your time posting Amazon links that don't work in your country, but it might be worth your while to do some searches.

Even the home brew shops near me (Ireland) only seem to stock 3 gallon pots/electric boilers.

There's nothing wrong with small batch brewing, especially as a way to start learning.

 

[wsmith1625]

When I first started BIAB brewing, I used an online calculator called Priceless BIAB Brew in a Bag Calculator. It was simple enough and pretty accurate at predicting volume, temperature, and gravity. When I started designing my own recipes, I moved to Beersmith, which can do all that and more, but has a higher learning curve and needs to be tuned to your setup and water source.

https://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/#Advanced

 

[redrocker652002]

I can only add my experiences here. I have a 10 gallon boil kettle and usually do BIAB. I start with about 5 to 6 gallons and mash the grains for about an hour. Grain usually absorbs about a gallon. I have an Igloo cooler that I add anywhere between 2.5 to 3 gallons of 170 degree water and soak the grains in that for another 15 to 20 mins to "sparge". Once done, I combine the two and end up with about 7 to 7.5 gallons in the kettle to do my 60 min boil. Once it is all said and done, about 5.5 gallons of wort goes into the fermenter. Yeast settles and I end up with anywhere between 40 to 44 12 ounce bottles of beer. With that said, I understand why you want to switch to all grain. I was the same way. Seemed like I was actually making beer that way versus just steeping grain, dumping a bunch of really thick liquid in and boiling and topping off. Looking back though, those were so much easier days. Cleanup was a breeze and I could do it all in my kitchen, only if my wife wasn't looking. LOL. With that said, I think you would probably be much better off getting at least a 10 gallon kettle to do 5 gallon all grain. Also, check your stove as mine would never be able to get 7 gallons of liquid to a boil within a decent time frame. And, in my case, add another hour or so for cleanup. Just my two cents worth, and that is about all it is worth. Enjoy the hobby and don't discount the "glooby" stuff. It is still beer. And you can look at the recipe section and find many really cool recipes using extract instead of all grain. Give it a look and see, you might stay with what you are doing if you are making good beer.

 

[hotbeer]

Why not just do several batches of the size you can easily do? I started off doing 1 gallon batches and currently 3 gallons is about the most I ever want to do at any one time. It keeps everything in manageable sizes. Five and ten gallon kits can easily be scaled down. The math is linear for that. Or just order the individual ingredients in the amounts that seem sensible to you.

Smaller batches also give you the opportunity to brew more variety or make small changes to particular recipe so you can taste the difference. And for some of us the act of brewing is almost more fun that drinking the results. So you get to enjoy that more often.

 

[beren]

Why not just do several batches

Every batch is about the same amount of work. 2X5 gallon batches is double the work and time of a 10 gallon batch. 3X3 gallon batches is three times to work. And a batch is what you put into the fermenter so really he would need 5x2 gallon batches to equal a single 10 gallon. If you bottle or kag the beer is good for at least a year so why do many times the effort? A larger pot to do a 5 gallon batch is an investment to save time and work.

 

[hotbeer]

Every batch is about the same amount of work. 2X5 gallon batches is double the work and time of a 10 gallon batch. 3X3 gallon batches is three times to work. And a batch is what you put into the fermenter so really he would need 5x2 gallon batches to equal a single 10 gallon. If you bottle or kag the beer is good for at least a year so why do many times the effort? A larger pot to do a 5 gallon batch is an investment to save time and work.

You obviously enjoy the drinking of your beer more than making it. I'm sort of the other way. I like the brewing part. Perhaps the logistics of managing the bigger sizes appeals to you. Or perhaps the consumption of you and your friends is enough to have you brewing as often as you care to.

Smaller batches let me get more of the enjoyment I want.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Do you mean do it in batches? So for an example, a recipe that calls for 10lbs of grain, I could do 2ish batches roughly 5 quarts water with 5lbs of grain in each and dump them into the fermenter?

Also, I see you're in Duncannon, I'm up in Dublin so if you've tips on where best to get a big enough boiler for full volume mash let me know!

Yeah sorry I'm in duncannon PA, US. As for the other question, you're best off getting a big enough pot to fit all your grains and water in 1 shot. Or do smaller batches with what you have. An all grain brew day takes time so to do batch after batch is multiplying your work load. It takes the same amount of time to make 15 gallons as it does for 5 gallons with the proper size equipment. Mash thickness and temp are your call but 1.5 quarts per lb is average and I guess you could say 152f is an average temp. There are lots of brewing software programs out there that will calculate for you.

 

[Want2Brew]

Do you mean do it in batches? So for an example, a recipe that calls for 10lbs of grain, I could do 2ish batches roughly 5 quarts water with 5lbs of grain in each and dump them into the fermenter?

Also, I see you're in Duncannon, I'm up in Dublin so if you've tips on where best to get a big enough boiler for full volume mash let me know!

Doing 2 (or more) batches to fill your fermenter, though more work, is perfectly acceptable if you don’t have a large enough brew kettle to do it in a single batch. Some of the big brewery’s do this at scale to get a more constant product.

 

[pvpeacock]

On my old 3 vessel system, I could make 5 gallon batches no problem. However, I discovered that I could also make 10 gallon batches by mashing and boiling a high gravity version of the beer and then diluting it with water before filling my 2 fermenters and pitching the yeast. The same concept will work for you.

Want2Brew is also correct that big brewers like Coors also brew high gravity beers and then dilute with water. However they add the water after fermentation to save fermenter space. Coors used to brew high gravity Coors light in Colorado and then ship it via rail tank cars to Elkton, Virginia post-fermentation where they had a packaging plant. They diluted the Coors light with Virginia water and bottled, canned and kegged it. The later built a brewery on the site of their packaging plant.

 

[Jack_0106]

Yeah sorry I'm in duncannon PA, US. As for the other question, you're best off getting a big enough pot to fit all your grains and water in 1 shot. Or do smaller batches with what you have. An all grain brew day takes time so to do batch after batch is multiplying your work load. It takes the same amount of time to make 15 gallons as it does for 5 gallons with the proper size equipment. Mash thickness and temp are your call but 1.5 quarts per lb is average and I guess you could say 152f is an average temp. There are lots of brewing software programs out there that will calculate for you.

Ah I thought you were in Ireland .

But yeah I get what you mean, I'll keep searching for a 20-30 liter pot or electric kettle of some sort. Thanks for your help

 

[Jack_0106]

Doing 2 (or more) batches to fill your fermenter, though more work, is perfectly acceptable if you don’t have a large enough brew kettle to do it in a single batch. Some of the big brewery’s do this at scale to get a more constant product.

Great, I reckon I could do that, although means a lot of extra work

 

[Northern_Brewer]

But yeah I get what you mean, I'll keep searching for a 20-30 liter pot or electric kettle of some sort. Thanks for your help

+1 to the comments that there's nothing magic about 5 gallons - my normal brewlength is either 14 or 18 litres. (and bear in mind that in these parts 5 gallons normally means US gallons, so 18.9 litres not imperial gallons which would be 22.7 litres).

The two advantages you have over USians are 1) decent electricity, so you don't need to mess around with propane and 2) decent tea. Which means tea urns and Burco boilers. So you can readily get something like this :
https://www.ebay.ie/sch/i.html?_fro...sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=1&rt=nc&_udlo=50&_udhi=150
Or eg https://www.geterbrewed.com/equipment/cookers-and-water-heating/

 

[redrocker652002]

You obviously enjoy the drinking of your beer more than making it. I'm sort of the other way. I like the brewing part. Perhaps the logistics of managing the bigger sizes appeals to you. Or perhaps the consumption of you and your friends is enough to have you brewing as often as you care to.

Smaller batches let me get more of the enjoyment I want.

I agree, do what makes you happy. I brew 5 gallon batches, and if I am going to bottle, I usually share with some friends at work. So, out of the 40 or so bottles I get, I usually give away 12 to 16 depending on how good it comes out. So for me, the fun is in the sharing and the drinking.

 

[Dland]

Howdy folks!

I've brewed a few gallon batches of mead/ciders and I've done one beer kit. You know the gloopy stuff in the can. It's all turned out pretty well and I'd like to have a go at all grain biab. I've got the 5 gallon FVs but I have one question that's holding me back.

How much water do you need to make your wort?

Do you boil your grains in let's say 3 gallons and then top it off to make 5? If you need to boil 5g or more, I wouldn't even know where to get a pot big enough to hold 5g and all the grains.

Any help much appreciated!

Can't help with BIAB specifically, but maybe answering helps in overview.

Three vessel rig, nominal 10 gallon batches, semi fly sparge, 17-21# grist ;

6.5-7 gallons strike, 9-10 gallon sparge, 16-17 gallons total, usually closer to 16. 10.5-11.5 gallons finished wort in fermentor.

After close to 200 batches, have this rig "dialed down" to the kind of beer I'm making the way I like it. Your results may vary.

 

[Jack_0106]

+1 to the comments that there's nothing magic about 5 gallons - my normal brewlength is either 14 or 18 litres. (and bear in mind that in these parts 5 gallons normally means US gallons, so 18.9 litres not imperial gallons which would be 22.7 litres).

The two advantages you have over USians are 1) decent electricity, so you don't need to mess around with propane and 2) decent tea. Which means tea urns and Burco boilers. So you can readily get something like this :
https://www.ebay.ie/sch/i.html?_fro...sacat=0&LH_PrefLoc=1&rt=nc&_udlo=50&_udhi=150
Or eg https://www.geterbrewed.com/equipment/cookers-and-water-heating/

Yeah I was looking at burcos but a lot of them are 10 liters - I suppose I could do a double batch and wind up with ~18 liters

 

[VikeMan]

Boiling the grains is fine provided the pH is lower than 6.0. It takes the combination of high pH and high temperature to extract a significant amount of tannins. That combination usually only occurs when over-sparging as a normal mash will be below 5.7pH. If that were not the case those who do decoctions would have undrinkable beer.

I agree with your statements as is, given the word "significant," but I feel the need to expand/drive home a point or two.

Every beer has tannins (from the mash and from hops). Beer wouldn't taste like beer if it didn't. The higher the mash temp, the more tannins are extracted. The higher the pH, the more tannins are extracted. There's nothing special about a specific combination of pH and temperature as some sort of brick wall for tannin extraction.

That said, the decoction thing is probably worth further discussion. It's true that the low pH in the decoction boil tends to suppress tannin extraction, tending to offset the high temperature, which otherwise tends to cause more tannin extraction. But it's not quite a wash. Decoction mashes do tend to extract more tannins than infusion mashes, but the result isn't objectionable and may even be preferred.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah I was looking at burcos but a lot of them are 10 liters - I suppose I could do a double batch and wind up with ~18 liters

Is the 10 liters the maximum kettle volume or boil capacity (leaving some headspace)?
You need to leave some headspace (10-15% at minimum) to prevent, or at least reduce, possible boil-overs.

There's nothing wrong with brewing 8 liter batches, especially when starting to brew. More hands on experience, more variety of beer.

If you want to brew larger batches, you could use 2 of such Burco boilers. You'd get twice the heating power.
Can those Burcos be dialed down, once it's boiling?

Or boil on your stove perhaps, using a second 10 liter pot, or two 10 liter pots.

Using 2 pots with 2 burners works usually better on a kitchen stove than trying to boil 20 liters in one larger kettle and one burner/coil, which may not be powerful enough for that.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yeah I was looking at burcos but a lot of them are 10 liters - I suppose I could do a double batch and wind up with ~18 liters

...and a lot of them are 30 litres.

 

[Jack_0106]

...and a lot of them are 30 litres.

Aha!! I have managed to source a 30 liter Burco. Need to start researching simple beginner friendly recipes now.

 

[Stikius]

Congrats to the equipment!

Best way to learn brewing in my opinion (I bet there are other opinions on that though) is to start with SMaSH (Single Malt and Single Hop) beers. Then you will be able to do the same recipe twice and for example switch to a new hop variety to get the hang of how each of them taste. Or mash at different temperatures to see what that does.
Later you can try combining two hops or add an extra malt, or change yeast or whatever you would like to experiment with. Just make sure the yeast can handle room temperature in case you don't have temperature control.
It's more fun to start simple and evolve (work out processes, recipe building skills, and so on) than to try to do complex beers first thing you do, only to be disappointed with the result.

 

[Jack_0106]

Congrats to the equipment!

Best way to learn brewing in my opinion (I bet there are other opinions on that though) is to start with SMaSH (Single Malt and Single Hop) beers. Then you will be able to do the same recipe twice and for example switch to a new hop variety to get the hang of how each of them taste. Or mash at different temperatures to see what that does.
Later you can try combining two hops or add an extra malt, or change yeast or whatever you would like to experiment with. Just make sure the yeast can handle room temperature in case you don't have temperature control.
It's more fun to start simple and evolve (work out processes, recipe building skills, and so on) than to try to do complex beers first thing you do, only to be disappointed with the result.

Thanks for the tips! I picked it up second hand so hopefully it works!

I actually watched a youtube video last night on a smash beer so I think that will be my first try. I don't have a heater for my 5 gallon fermenters yet but might pick one up as its still pretty cold here in Ireland. Otherwise I'll have to wait until a bit later in Spring.

Without getting into the nitty gritty of vocab and almost pro level brewing as I've still to learn the lingo - I've another few questions - Is there anything else I need?

• I've the burco to heat my full volume of water
• Steep grains/hops or whatever the recipe calls for in this burco at strike temp
• Remove grain bag - Squeeze or sparge? I've seen people do both but I don't have another vessel of water for sparging
• Cool to room temp - Wort chiller or kitchen sink with cold water and ice?
• Syphon wort into fermentor and pitch yeast

I think that's pretty much all the steps for my first trial - Is there anything I'm missing?

 

[mac_1103]

Remove grain bag - Squeeze or sparge? I've seen people do both but I don't have another vessel of water for sparging

You can sparge in cold water in a plain old plastic bucket. But if you do want to sparge you shouldn't do a full volume mash. If you're going to squeeze a hot bag, make sure you wear some insulated gloves.

I think that's pretty much all the steps for my first trial - Is there anything I'm missing?

The boil. And the hops. This is all grain now, right? Not a pre-hopped extract.

 

[Jack_0106]

You can sparge in cold water in a plain old plastic bucket. But if you do want to sparge you shouldn't do a full volume mash. If you're going to squeeze a hot bag, make sure you wear some insulated gloves.

Yeah I can understand that. Roughly how much water would you sparge with?

I could be way off but for examples sake, I do 18 liter boil and sparge with an extra 5 or 6 liters would bring me to 23ish liters total volume to play around with and take evaporation and grain soakage into consideration hopefully ending back at 20 liters of wort to ferment?

Seems easier to do close full volume and just squeeze the bag into the boiler. Probably wont end up with full 20 liters as I'd have to account for water displacement

 

[Stikius]

I don't have a heater for my 5 gallon fermenters yet but might pick one up as its still pretty cold here in Ireland. Otherwise I'll have to wait until a bit later in Spring.

Where are you planning to ferment? If it's in a cold garage you could brew a lager. If you're fermenting in your living room it's perfect for an ale. Start backwards and try to find a place where the temperature is somewhat constant and then find a yeast suitable for that temperature.