Mold on top of cider

[thewurzel]

Hi this a picture from a friends cider
we Fresh pressed some apples earlier this year
It started fermentation at the beginning of October and has been aging in the secondary fermenter ever since.
now he says there is mold growing on his
As I have never had this problem before. i am looking for some advice to help him out.
so my questions are
is this saveable
and if so would it be best to rack from under the mold to a new clean sanatized carboy for bulk aging.
or just rack from under the mold and go ahead and bottle for aging

Thanks Julian

 

[lumpher]

can't really tell from the pics, but that might be yeast rafts instead of mold

 

[thewurzel]

can't really tell from the pics, but that might be yeast rafts instead of mold

Sorry i posted the same pic twice just edited that

can't tell much from the pics myself but I will ask him for some better pics
he did say it was growing quickly

this what he said in his e-mail with the pics
About a month after I transferred my batch to the carboy I started getting some mold floating on the top. The photo I attached was taken 5 days ago and the mold is growing at a pretty brisk clip. Is that normal, or have I “screwed the pooch”.

 

[roadymi]

That is an awful lot of headspace for secondary. Is it done fermenting? I would treat with sorbate and camden tabs then carefully rack into another container and leave no headspace. Try to avoid transferring any of the floaties. See if you get any new growth.

 

[thewurzel]

Quoted by Tom

Here are a few more shots. The detritus has a waxy appearance that doesn’t translate very well in the photos. Tom

 

[bottlebomber]

Did this turn out okay? I have a batch of fresh pressed cider now, and less than 24 hours after pressing the little apple bits in there are showing some mold. The lady at the HBS said to not worry about it.

 

[Yooper]

Did this turn out okay? I have a batch of fresh pressed cider now, and less than 24 hours after pressing the little apple bits in there are showing some mold. The lady at the HBS said to not worry about it.

Those pictures show WAY too much headspace in secondary- that's what allowed the mold to start.

If you've pressed the cider, and used campden tablets, then you should be fine. If you never used campden tablets, you will want to do that ASAP.

 

[bottlebomber]

Those pictures show WAY too much headspace in secondary- that's what allowed the mold to start.

If you've pressed the cider, and used campden tablets, then you should be fine. If you never used campden tablets, you will want to do that ASAP.

Yooper - I've got 25 gallons of fresh pressed cider on the line, and I've never done this before. Yesterday I juiced it all, added campden as per instructions plus an extra tab for good measure. That night I pitched 15 grams of montrachet and this morning I had vigorous fermentation. There were some little apple pieces in the carboys. One of them already had some blue mold on it this morning. I did leave about 6 inches of head space for fermentation. Should I rack it off the lees and leave the apple chunks behind, or should I just let it ferment out?

 

[Yooper]

Normally, the campden takes care of any risk of mold. You want headspace for fermentation, don't worry! It's only when the fermentation slows down and you rack to secondary that you worry about headspace.

I've never ever seen blue mold before, so I'm a little nervous about that. Can you fish out the piece with the mold, and then keep an eye on it?

 

[bottlebomber]

Normally, the campden takes care of any risk of mold. You want headspace for fermentation, don't worry! It's only when the fermentation slows down and you rack to secondary that you worry about headspace.

I've never ever seen blue mold before, so I'm a little nervous about that. Can you fish out the piece with the mold, and then keep an eye on it?

Good to know... I will try to fish out the mold and see if that contains the problem. I was planning on racking it off and filling my fermenters up to the top, even topping off with store bought juice if necessary. Thanks! Actually to be completely honest my SWMBO sent me the mold pic, there's a chance it some kind of foreign detritis floating in the cider. Fingers crossed. The cider pressing process is a nightmare for a sanitation freak though, your running it into a bucket off a piece of wooded equipment.

 

[bottlebomber]

Well, whatever was going on is now annihilated by the crazy fermentation I've got now... its looks milky because its foaming like a shaken bottle of champagne. man this montrachet smells like farts. Or maybe its the campden.

 

[oldmate]

If it was mould I would get rid of it straight away and sterilise anything that comes into contact with it. Mould isn't great, even if you rack from under it/kill it there is a chance that toxins will still be in solution. Yooper, maybe America is different somehow but I get blue/green mould here all the time.

 

[Yooper]

If it was mould I would get rid of it straight away and sterilise anything that comes into contact with it. Mould isn't great, even if you rack from under it/kill it there is a chance that toxins will still be in solution. Yooper, maybe America is different somehow but I get blue/green mould here all the time.

I've never seen any mold like that- but I have seen white mold. It just seems weird that mold would show up right away, and along with campden- doesn't it take a while?

I'll have to defer to oldmate, since he knows more than I do about this.

What about a bombing with more campden? Would that help?

 

[paulster2626]

If the green mould doesn't come back, he's fine. That little bit of "toxins" floating around in 5+ gallons of liquid will not hurt anyone. Maybe it'll make it better - like the Bleu Cheese of ciders...

 

[oldmate]

I would disagree, prolonged exposure to mould mycotoxins may be detrimental to health in the long run, even in such small quantities. Some mycotoxins are known carcinogens and some are known allergenics. Yooper, I would have thought that mould would take longer to form but I've never seen any yeast turn blue/green. Just a few weeks ago I had a sulphited jug of apple juice waiting to be added into my primary when I noticed that after a day it had grown a blue/green skin cap, so maybe there are a few strains that find that environment benificial to growth.

That being said, it may be harmless. I'm not trying to scare anyone, just trying to create some awareness that mould isn't a great thing to have, and can't simply be removed. I also can't comment on the toxins in solution post-fermentation as I don't know what part the yeast/pH might play in their breakdown. I would find it 100x easier to just dump it and start again, yeah it might suck, but I don't want to make anyone sick.

 

[bottlebomber]

I would find it 100x easier to just dump it and start again, yeah it might suck, but I don't want to make anyone sick.

As I said before, whatever mold-resembling item was in the fermenter that my SWMBO sent me the picture of was not present when I got home. I was planning on blending the 27 gallons of cider I have together when I racked for more uniformity, but after this I will definitely keep them separate through the process to see if anything develops. Whenever I get the "dump it! Dump it!" Urge, I try to think about how long people have been doing this. Burning a piece of sulfur dusted rope inside of an open wooden fermenting tub used the be the best sanitation that could be had.

 

[frydogbrews]

bottom line, unless you do something crazy, you are not going to make anyone sick. write that down. seriously, stop reading and write that in your notebook. ok, so...

now, i can't speak for australia, but here you can take water with gerardia in it, mix it with very weak apple juice, ferment it, and drink it as weak alcohol, i'm talking 2% suff here folks.
now you might say...."what, he's full of crap", while that may be true, its a moot point. when you read the history books and they say tom jefferson and sam adams, blah, blah, started every day with a mug of cider, yeah, that wasn't because they were drunks, it was because the water would make you sick; weakly fermented alcohol takes care of that. note though, i'm not saying that stuff tasted delicious. also, they were drunks, but again, moot point.

as a side note, i bet my left toe(which is my favorite one) that what the swmbo photographed wasn't mold.

i'm buying all my juice fresh pressed at the end of this month. found a place that's going to call me when they press their mutsu and blushing goldens. very excited. probably get 25 gallons or so this year. next year is where the motherload comes in!

good luck and happy cider making!! maybe try some cyser this year, bring it up to about 12% with honey and its drinkable and delicious in 4 months or so. i highly suggest carbing it also.

 

[bottlebomber]

bottom line, unless you do something crazy, you are not going to make anyone sick. write that down. seriously, stop reading and write that in your notebook. ok, so...

now, i can't speak for australia, but here you can take water with gerardia in it, mix it with very weak apple juice, ferment it, and drink it as weak alcohol, i'm talking 2% suff here folks.
now you might say...."what, he's full of crap", while that may be true, its a moot point. when you read the history books and they say tom jefferson and sam adams, blah, blah, started every day with a mug of cider, yeah, that wasn't because they were drunks, it was because the water would make you sick; weakly fermented alcohol takes care of that. note though, i'm not saying that stuff tasted delicious. also, they were drunks, but again, moot point.

as a side note, i bet my left toe(which is my favorite one) that what the swmbo photographed wasn't mold.

i'm buying all my juice fresh pressed at the end of this month. found a place that's going to call me when they press their mutsu and blushing goldens. very excited. probably get 25 gallons or so this year. next year is where the motherload comes in!

good luck and happy cider making!! maybe try some cyser this year, bring it up to about 12% with honey and its drinkable and delicious in 4 months or so. i highly suggest carbing it also.

I was thinking about "amplifying" one of the carboys... honey sounds good. You know, there were some stray apple seeds and a few bits of green peel/pulp in there, it could had easily been something like this. Mold after 18 hours sounds suspicious... man I've totally highjacked this thread.
Great post btw

 

[bottlebomber]

Wow, my gravity went from 1.055 to .998 in 24 hours... bizzare

 

[oldmate]

As I said before, whatever mold-resembling item was in the fermenter that my SWMBO sent me the picture of was not present when I got home. I was planning on blending the 27 gallons of cider I have together when I racked for more uniformity, but after this I will definitely keep them separate through the process to see if anything develops. Whenever I get the "dump it! Dump it!" Urge, I try to think about how long people have been doing this. Burning a piece of sulfur dusted rope inside of an open wooden fermenting tub used the be the best sanitation that could be had.

I understand your way of thinking but then again, when you get an infection do you use antibiotics? It's essentially the same thing. Just because you can get away with it sometimes/older cultures got away with it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best practice. I must have skipped over the 27 gallons part, at that concentration I doubt there would be much of a problem if at all. Sorry if this sounds like I am trying to have a go at you, I'm not at all! Just trying to create some awareness from what I've seen around here.

bottom line, unless you do something crazy, you are not going to make anyone sick. write that down. seriously, stop reading and write that in your notebook. ok, so...

now, i can't speak for australia, but here you can take water with gerardia in it, mix it with very weak apple juice, ferment it, and drink it as weak alcohol, i'm talking 2% suff here folks.
now you might say...."what, he's full of crap", while that may be true, its a moot point. when you read the history books and they say tom jefferson and sam adams, blah, blah, started every day with a mug of cider, yeah, that wasn't because they were drunks, it was because the water would make you sick; weakly fermented alcohol takes care of that. note though, i'm not saying that stuff tasted delicious. also, they were drunks, but again, moot point.

I'm not sure on the point you were making but Giardia is completely different to mould. Giarda are organisms (protozoans) which are sensitive to ethanol (although not too sure about the cysts). The point I am trying to get across is that mould isn't harmless, it causes a concentration of toxins in whatever it is growing in/on.

 

[dinnerstick]

as a side note, i bet my left toe(which is my favorite one) that what the swmbo photographed wasn't mold.

the suspense is killing me, WHICH left toe?? second in from the big guy?

 

[frydogbrews]

I'm not sure on the point you were making but Giardia is completely different to mould. Giarda are organisms (protozoans) which are sensitive to ethanol (although not too sure about the cysts). The point I am trying to get across is that mould isn't harmless, it causes a concentration of toxins in whatever it is growing in/on.

i thought the aussie's were a tough lot? big fan of hand sanitizer are you?
my point was, bad things in water can be fixed by fermenting the water (but it might not taste great).
i know it is trendy right now to blame all of life's ill's on pesky mold, but it's truly not the big boogie man. yes, it can kill you, but try eating an ounce of rosemary, that'll kill you to. the dose makes the poison people. relax.....

 

[frydogbrews]

the suspense is killing me, WHICH left toe?? second in from the big guy?

i've lost a lot of these bets....so i only have one toe left on that foot. that's what makes it my favorite. since it is the only one left, i feel obligated to call it the big toe!

 

[bottlebomber]

but try eating an ounce of rosemary, that'll kill you to. the dose makes the poison people. relax.....

I am going to need some source material on this... I tried Googling if rosemary can kill you, and all I got was "#### you Mrs. Rosemary. I will kill you you ####### whore."

 

[frydogbrews]

it's in several of my old textbooks about phytochemicals and general weirdness on plants, which are only available online for $$$

but two seconds of internet searching turned up this:
"Warning:
Excessive amounts of rosemary taken internally can cause fatal poisoning."
from this website : http://www.emedicinal.com/herbs/gardenrosemary.php
go all the way to the bottom of the page.
it's almost certainly on erowid.org also, but when i go to that site, i get lost in it and blow a couple hours, so i'm not going there now.
if you don't believe me though, just give 'er a rip. make sure your affairs are in order before you do it though.

 

[oldmate]

i thought the aussie's were a tough lot? big fan of hand sanitizer are you?
my point was, bad things in water can be fixed by fermenting the water (but it might not taste great).
i know it is trendy right now to blame all of life's ill's on pesky mold, but it's truly not the big boogie man. yes, it can kill you, but try eating an ounce of rosemary, that'll kill you to. the dose makes the poison people. relax.....

No, I've just been trained in toxicology. I find it illogical to ingest something that you know full-well may be harmful to you. Mould obviously won't kill you, not in the concentrations we are talking about but it isn't going to make you feel like you've just drank from the hand of God either. You're missing the point I was trying to make which is creating the very best brew you possibly can, using modern methods and sanitation. I also don't feel that I have a right to cause harm to anyone drinking my brews, so I often leave out any sulphites in my process, opting for heat pasteurisation or cold crashing.

I feel this conversation has been taken into the negative.

 

[bottlebomber]

No, I've just been trained in toxicology. I find it illogical to ingest something that you know full-well may be harmful to you. Mould obviously won't kill you, not in the concentrations we are talking about but it isn't going to make you feel like you've just drank from the hand of God either. You're missing the point I was trying to make which is creating the very best brew you possibly can, using modern methods and sanitation. I also don't feel that I have a right to cause harm to anyone drinking my brews, so I often leave out any sulphites in my process, opting for heat pasteurisation or cold crashing.

I feel this conversation has been taken into the negative.

I don't think its become negative, just people exchanging opinions... sometimes people are opinionated, but as it turns out, fermenting stuff is a deeply personal matter to some. I know I will be quite offended if my cider doesn't turn out.

I respect what your saying and appreciate your viewpoint. My viewpoint is now that 1. I feel there's a fairly good chance at this point that it was not mold but some kind of other foreign material that was seen, and 2. If it was mold, it represents such a small portion of the 7.5 gallon carboy that to me it definitely out of the question to dump.

The only point of disagreement I have with what you've stated is that you think heat pasteurization produces "the best brew possible" and you've also suggested that using sulfur in the form of campden tablets means that you've entitled yourself to do harm to those that imbibe in it. There is WAY more sulfur used in the typical commercial grape wine than I have used here, and much of the sulfur will be neutralized by the time its served. Most people wouldn't consider wine to be harmful in moderate quantities. However as always, I would hope that any viewpoints be expressed with respectfulness so HBT stays a fun and positive place.

 

[frydogbrews]

The point I am trying to get across is that mould isn't harmless, it causes a concentration of toxins in whatever it is growing in/on.

this is true, and this is the point i was addressing. i just think people need to relax more, that's all. how many posts get put up with people saying "i think this is mold, is this mold?" i have myself had several mold double takes, it's very common. it's also very very rarely mold.
not trying to upset anybody, just having a good talk.

as a side not though, there are some molds that are psychoactive and will certainly make you think you just drank from the hand of god!
inside of a banana peel will do the same thing. have fun.

 

[oldmate]

The only point of disagreement I have with what you've stated is that you think heat pasteurization produces "the best brew possible" and you've also suggested that using sulfur in the form of campden tablets means that you've entitled yourself to do harm to those that imbibe in it. There is WAY more sulfur used in the typical commercial grape wine than I have used here, and much of the sulfur will be neutralized by the time its served. Most people wouldn't consider wine to be harmful in moderate quantities. However as always, I would hope that any viewpoints be expressed with respectfulness so HBT stays a fun and positive place.

I think I should have made myself more clear on my stance. I believe in brewing in the best conditions which yes, use sulphites and sorbates. Despite that, if I know my brews are going to be consumed by individuals sensitive to sulphites (I have a number of friends and family that stay away from commercial wines/ciders for this reason) I will not include it and opt for heat. But you are right, in this circumstance the amount of mould, if it was mould, is negligable and would most probably not have any ill-effects at such low concentrations.

this is true, and this is the point i was addressing. i just think people need to relax more, that's all. how many posts get put up with people saying "i think this is mold, is this mold?" i have myself had several mold double takes, it's very common. it's also very very rarely mold.
not trying to upset anybody, just having a good talk.

as a side not though, there are some molds that are psychoactive and will certainly make you think you just drank from the hand of god!
inside of a banana peel will do the same thing. have fun.

I can understand where you are coming from, but we definitely must have very different experiences, maybe from location/climate etc.. I have never had any infection other than mould in my brews and haven't heard of any from the local brewers that I know. I find it quite interesting though and would love to know why that is! It is just in my opinion that of the infections that you could get, mould is probably the most dangerous because of the mycotoxin production. Lambic infections aren't usually too bad and acetobacter is just vinegar.

- Well I can't wait to try my banana melomel then!