Mixed Cultures - 1 Gallon Test Batches

[dubbwelsh]

I plan on brewing a 5 gallon batch based on The Rare Barrels "Golden Sour". Then split the batch into 5-1 gallon batches, pitching 5 different commercial mixed cultures. 3 containing Brett, Pedio, Lacto, and Sacc. 2 containing multiple Brett Strains each. My question(s), will this recipe provide good representation of what to expect out of these mixed cultures before committing to a similar 5 gallon batch and my million dollar question, at what Mash Temperature? I have conflicting schools of thought.

Tonsmeire (The Mad Fermentationist) seems to mash at the upper end, 152+° F, as to leave something for Brett etc. to chew on, even when pitching all at primary. Goodwin (The Rare Barrel), goes the other way, mashing low ~146° F, with the idea of making the fermentables easily accessible upfront when pitching all together in primary.



Sour Test #1



36.4% Pale Malt (2 Row) US

36.4% Pilsner (2 Row) Ger

18.2% White Wheat Malt

9.1% Rolled Oats



Side note: I planned on adding 1 IBU from a mash hop, but I want to give the lacto the best chance possible, any thoughts on this would be rad too. Thanks!



Chris

 

[WildDisplacement]

IMO fermentation temperature/ is more important to consider then the recipe is. Sacc, Brett and LAB all have different preferred temp. ranges and the storage conditions will also greatly affect the final flavor profile. If I find a beer isn't progressing to level of sour or funk that I would like I move it a warmer part of the house or will warm the carboy with a brew belt in the winter time.

I generally find when working with only commercial cultures the first generation or 2 tend to be a little more subdued then subsequent batches because of the Sacc to bug ratio. I'm not sure if you intend to re-pitch the mixed culture from the one gallon test batches, but that is what I usually do when trying out new cultures. Once the culture matures around 150-180 days post initial pitch, the second brew will get much more tart and funky. Do you plan on keeping the pitches as the came for the manufacturer, or do you intend on adding dregs from commercial sours?

As for mash temp thats is really up to you; mashing low will provide a lot of simple sugars where as a higher mash will provide more complex sugars. Brett is know to break down long chain carbohydrates that Sacc traditionally can't. If I am looking for a quick turn around on a petite saison or berliner I shoot for 148-149, and the brews I plan on aging 1+ yrs will get mashed at 154-156.

This was a 5 gallon batch I split with a similar idea: I pitched WLP 670, Wyeast Green Belt with Brett Brux, Bootleg Biology Summer Solera Blend with dregs from 15 different sours, and the other two are local wild yeast and bacteria one is from local asian pears and the other is from wort left under a wild blackberry patch.

 

[dubbwelsh]

Thanks for input. I definitely intend on re-pitching for a 5 gal batch. Temperature is something I have been toying with too. There was just such gap in thinking between the two ideas (mash temps) when pitching all critters/sacc together, wanted to gain some more insight.
I was able to get some feedback from Tonsmeire this morning and he basically broke it down to; higher mash temps:
Ensure Lacto will have fermentables to slowly chomp on after Sacc finishes up
Encourage more ester production from Brett (important in 2 of my test batches)

Goodwin's idea, at least as I understand it, is to provide the most fementable wort to "all" right upfront, why make them work for it? Anyways, I think will follow Tonsmeire's advice in this situation.
Mash @ 152° F, right in the middle of your 2 examples.

As for pitching dregs . . . One of the main reasons I've move towards mixed-fermentation and not just traditional, is its tough to find commercial examples where I live, North Central Washington. For this experiment, looking to evaluate the commercial pitches only. Plan is to evaluate (pH, SG, taste & smell) at 3 months and again at 6 months, possibly re-pitching if satisfied with one at 3 months.

Here are the cultures:
Wyeast 3278 - Belgian Lambic
Bootleg Biology BBXSS-1115 - Sour Solera Blend
Bootleg Biology BB0034A - Funk Weapon #1 (Brett Only Strains)
Yeast Bay - Melange
Yeast Bay – Beersel (Brett Only Strains)

Got any advice on the temp, I planned on 68° F, but maybe warmer?

 

[WildDisplacement]

Ok, yeah I can understand keeping them separate. A large microbial diversity will help develop a rounded and complex beer but that can also be achieved through blending. In episode 11 of The Sour Hour, Jean Van Roy of Cantillon, talks about blending barrels of acid beer with those of more character (Brett) to get his Gueuze the way he likes it.

I just noticed the part about IBUs. As a culture gets older (1+ yrs), the bugs will begin to dominate the culture, and more IBUs will help keep the LAB from over running the fermentation before slower moving Brett and possibly dormant Sacc have a chance to get moving.

If a beer becomes to acidic it can always be blended with a higher hopped all Brett or saison fermented beer. This method can also add some depth to a beer that may have been inhibited in a mixed fermentation that didn't reach the level of sour you were looking for.

I generally pitch on the cool side, 64-66, and allow the fermentation to free rise into the mid to high 70s depending the season. Summer brews generally develop into funkier/ more sour beers due to hotter fermentation temps. I shoot for 15-20 IBUs during the hottest summer months, July- late September, because I prefer more funk.

 

[dubbwelsh]

Good call about bugs dominating with time, hadn't factored that in. Let's see if I'm following the logic train here with this thought:
IF I like how a culture is progressing and decided to re-pitch a portion (.25 - .5 gal) for a full batch beer, should the replacement wort, for the culture, maybe have a slightly higher IBU? If I start with a low IBU wort to aid in critter growth, but then increase IBU with each subsequent replacement wort, I might be able to "control" the growth inhibition, gently slowing critters for Brett and Sacc.
I had to re-read what I wrote, but I think it makes sense. I may be over-thinking too, and should just make a 10 IBU wort.

 

[WildDisplacement]

That is generally what I do. For the test batches: I mash low - 148, shoot for no more then 5 IBUs, and starting gravity is around 1.032-36, then let them go for 6 months. If I like how it's tastes, the new batch of wort will be a standard French/ Belgian ale recipe (saison, single, bruin). 10 IBUs for something sour and 15+ for something funkier.

Just to clarify, are you planning repitching the culture plus fermented beer, or just the slurry? I've done both methods, and haven't really noticed a difference between the two. I usual just bottle it because I like having something to drink as the full sized batch is aging. Using some of the old batch will lower the pH, getting below 4.5 is supposed to help preserve some of proteins that aid in head retention If that matters any.

 

[dubbwelsh]

Sounds like a solid plan. I'm pretty sure I'll opt for drinking over some head retention this time around, still working on that patience thing. Thanks again, let ya know how it all shakes out!