how important in your opinion is aeration, starter and yeast nutrition?

[Brewsterguy]

companies want to sell yeast nutritionals, so obviously they say its a must. brulosophy couldnt find any difference between using and not using.

aeration-> some on the forum say its overrated, some say its a must. brulosophy couldnt find a difference between shaking and pure O2.

yeast starter ->some always do, some just hydrate a dry pack, some just chuck it in. have any of you dont both? my brother in law chucks his in and closes the lid. I sometimes rehydrate, sometimes I dont, my results are the same.

i ask, as I had a few low attenuation brews that got me checking all of the above and finding a bunch of conflicting answers.

 

[DoctorDuvel]

What made the most improvement was when I started focusing on water profiles and mash ph, it changed everything.
If it's dry yeast I just pitch it in dry; if it's liquid I make a starter or use an appropriate amount of slurry if it's from a fresh batch. Since I started making starters/pitching fresh slurry, lag time is minimal, which is satisfying, and I aerate by shaking/swirling plus the action of moving from kettle to fermenter because everyone said it helps so I've always done it - but never used pure oxygen. Some of these things become more important the bigger of a beer you make (gravity/abv), but I stay away from those lol. But water and mash ph is key for every beer.

 

[Dland]

If you are brewing beer, generally you don't need yeast nutrition. With mead and wine, especially mead, some yeast nutrition is usually needed.

Starters are often good if starting out with a liquid yeast or dry one not made for direct pitch. Some brewers swear on them in all cases, and if it works out for them the way they brew, that's cool. I've usually not needed them unless using a liquid smack pack I've had to revive after shipping.

With the dry yeasts I use, usually Fermentis products, aeration is not needed on initial pitch. When re using yeast in slurry , yeast cake, etc, for subsequent batches , aeration is needed, I use O2 from a tank with an aeration wand or O2 injector, depending on which fermentor I'm using. If your going to get an O2 tank, a wand will be all your really need. Some brewers splash the wort and such, and that may work to some degree, but I find it simpler to inject pure O2 for a minute or two.

 

[seilenos]

The following is what I do and not an opinion on any other process.

Nutrient: I generally use it because I don’t think it can hurt and a small vial that’s a few dollars ends up being good for 25 or more batches.

Aeration: I don’t take any steps specifically other than allowing the wort to splash into my ferment-and-serve kegs.

Starters: Did them. Don’t do them any more. If anything my beers have gotten better after I stopped using them. Liquid gets dumped in. Dry gets sprinkled.

 

[Bassman2003]

In my experience, the need for nutrients in the yeast starter depends upon your start of yeast. If you are pouring in a fresh pack of yeast that you want to grow larger, these cells are very well nourished to begin with, so the need for nutrients goes down. If you are starting from a stored small vial or frozen, I think nutrients are a must. If you are using canned starter wort wort by chance, I think nutrients are a must.

As far as oxygenation, I believe it is a must for high level yeast performance. In the homebrewing world, there are a lot of degrees of 'right'. You can do a lot of things and end up with beer. But, if you want to mow through wort in very short order and consistently get attenuation in the 80's, then oxygenation is a must imho. Taking the wort up to 14+ppm of O2 really gives the yeast what it wants compared to low or no O2. Can you get by with no or less? Sure, but getting by when it comes to yeast is not optimal. You want to win with energy to spare as to avoid creating off flavors or pooping out before the target.

Both of these things are topics in which one should emulate the pros behavior. They do it because it works better.

 

[jddevinn]

The majority of yeasts require oxygen for growth. In a study of type species from 75 genera, it was noted that only 23% could grow under anaerobic conditions on a complex medium supplemented with ergosterol and a source of unsaturated fatty acids (Visser et al., 1990). Of these, S. cerevisiae was exceptional in that it was capable of rapid growth at low oxygen tension. Nevertheless, none of these yeasts, including S. cerevisiae, can grow under totally anaerobic conditions unless the medium is supplemented with a source of unsaturated fatty acids and sterols (Andreason and Stier, 1953a,b). These essential metabolites can be assimilated from the medium or synthesized de novo from carbohydrates. Synthesis requires the presence of molecular oxygen. Both of these are present in wort at the start of fermentation.

In brewery fermentations, sterols and unsaturated fatty acids are synthesized during the aerobic phase. Cell proliferation during the anaerobic phase of fermentation dilutes the pre-formed pools of sterols and unsaturated fatty acids amongst daughter cells. On subsequent re-pitching, these lipids must be replenished hence the requirement for oxygenation of wort. Failure to provide sufficient oxygen is one of the prime causes of slow and sticking fermentations. The quantity of oxygen required for fermentation is strain-dependent. In an early study, ale strains were classified as requiring half air saturation, air saturation, oxygen saturation or more than oxygen saturation for satisfactory fermentation performance (Kirsop, 1974). Similar findings have been reported for lager yeast strains (Jacobsen and Thorne, 1980). The explanation for these differences is related to the spectrum of sterols produced by individual yeast strains (Section 12.7.3). The fate of most of the oxygen utilized during the aerobic phase of fermentation is unknown. Theoretically 10% is utilized for sterol formation and 15% for the biosynthesis of unsaturated fatty acids (Kirsop, 1982). More than 50% is unaccounted for.

-Brewing Science and Practice.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

From the topic: How important in your opinion is aeration, starter and yeast nutrition?

They are important.

There is an dry vs wet yeast consideration that should split the discussion into two sub topics.

I had a few low attenuation brews that got me checking all of the above and finding a bunch of conflicting answers

Specific strain, fermentation temperature and wort composition also important factors.

Did you want to trouble shoot those recipes?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

background: we're in the beginners brewing forum. So in addition to quoting from ...

... converting the knowledge into pragmatic brewing steps and/or troubleshooting steps would likely be appreciated.

 

[Bassman2003]

I have been working on my yeast management and will share my recent experiences with nutrients and starters. I have been experimenting with keeping 2ml vials of yeast in my fridge and growing them up for brewing with canned starter wort. The yeast are growing up fine and seemingly healthy, but my fermentations were running out of steam past 1.019. I decided to add some Fermax to my starter steps and the yeast went crazy. It was obvious that my yeast were mal-nourished. While this may not be as important with fresh, store bought yeast, it is an easy and cheap way to get the yeast at their best.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/consistently-low-fg’s.732637/ has some discussion on the quality of estimated FG and on equipment calibration.

finding a bunch of conflicting answers [when web searching]

It may be that both/all of the conflicting answers are correct, but the replies are making assumptions about the missing information.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's not a one size fits all answer.

How challenging is the ferment? High OG and desired level of attenuation is harder on yeast.

Lager or ale?

Do you want more yeast character or less?

How old is the pack of liquid yeast?

Those are just a few questions that will change the best practices advice drastically

 

[lumpher]

It's not a one size fits all answer.

How challenging is the ferment? High OG and desired level of attenuation is harder on yeast.

Lager or ale?

Do you want more yeast character or less?

How old is the pack of liquid yeast?

Those are just a few questions that will change the best practices advice drastically

These are much more relevant than "How do I brew?". A LOT of variables go into consideration. For a newbie, 1 fresh pack of dry yeast dumped into a 5 gallon that was splashed into a ferm bucket and let it go works. Not so much for advanced brewers.

 

[Bobby_M]

It definitely explains why there are conflicting answers. Everyone has different goals, or maybe better stated as various levels of mastery to get he exact beer you want. Some people are tuned to perfectly acceptable decent beer.

 

[Bassman2003]

Kind of an eternal struggle here on internet homebrewing forums. There is the proven best way and then there are the many shortcut ways that people take. The shortcuts do not cancel out the proven best way, they just offer convenience or time or enjoyment etc... But this is a discussion forum, so I think it is best to discuss or mention the proven best way so it is at least known.

Every yeast lab uses nutrients to grow up yeast. That is a practice that should be copied for optimal growth and eventual fermentation performance. For the actual fermentation, I believe some zinc is all that is needed.

Professional breweries oxygenate to measured levels for optimal fermentation performance. This too should be copied for the same reason. Yeast need oxygen to multiply. That is all that is needed to be known. If you under-oxygenate, you are just asking the existing cells to handle the entire workload.

Yeast starters/large pitches are just good practice. Underpitching has been pounded into homebrewers heads by White Labs and Wyeast from back when I started 20+ years ago. They used to sell 50 billion cells packs and always said to direct pitch etc... The whole exercise made it seem like just chuck a cell in there and if you wait long enough, you will get beer. Sadly, they were just being disingenuous as they sold large pitches to pro brewers. Pitch a lot of healthy yeast. More than you think is normal as it does work in your favor. I was very happy to see Imperial come into the marketplace with the 200 billion cells packs. A fresh 2bil for an ale is more on target and it cleared all of the underpitch thoughts out of the discussion. When it comes to yeast, think Stormin' Norman (1st Iraq conflict). Overwhelm your adversary.

Oxygenation can be the most difficult as to truly do it right, one needs a good Dissolved Oxygen meter. But, you can get close by just trial and error and discussion with other brewers.

 

[pvtpublic]

As a home brewer, I found that violently inserting my wort into my carboy was sufficient (dumping the contents of the kettle into a funnel, and later on using a pump at arms length). I used dry yeast, and I would directly pitch without rehydrating. I figured that the lag time that the dry yeast provided was ample amount of time hanging out with our temporary buddy - O2. My results were great! I've even taken home several accolades in numerous homebrew competitions.
However, I'm a "pro" now (if I could make those apostrophes bigger, I would) and I still use dry yeast. I now use pure O2 with a carb stone during transfer from my chiller to the fermenter. I've noticed a slight improvement in the quality of my beers. I'm not sure that I can attribute it to oxygenation of my wort or not, considering the equipment change and/or the volume change, or if it's the financial motivation to succeed.

 

[Brewsterguy]

thank you all for the answers.

Since I did not mention before, i do extract beers with steeping grains and top off water. i have about 12-15 total beers i have done and out of them I would say 9 were perfect, in the sense that they kept the prime taste for about 2-3 months, they had a nice clarity and everybody enjoyed them (even when they were not that persons style).

However, since I never had an exact method, once every 3 beers or so i get a sub optimal brew. Every time i try and check I see it could be this or that.
I believe ill keep direct pitching dry yeast (as its all I use), ill oxygenate a bit with a Hepa filter acquarium pump and worry more about trying to be able to control ferm temperature, which I currently have zeron control over.
For the nutrients, gonna just skip them. I bought a pack for a cider I made and kept using it for beer, never seeing any difference.
thank you again!

 

[fluketamer]

With dry yeast not so much. I have forgot to aerate or done a very poor job aerating and have never noticed a difference on final product. Obviously no starter needed with dry yeast but I even gave up rehydrating after not seeing a difference with direct pitch. Lastly I only add nutrients to wines ciders and mead. My beers got plenty of nutrients( extract or AG ). Without adding extra.

Are you making extract beer or AG. My AG beers attenuate a little better than my extract brews in my experience.

More importantly is prolly temp. What temps are you fermenting at. I find that stable temps towards the lower end of a yeast range will make cleaner beer.
I also notice with a fermentation tracking device that temp changes often result in changes to the slope of the gravity line.

Stable temps result in much smoother graphs. Enzymes are highly temperature dependent.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Since I did not mention before, i do extract beers with steeping grains and top off water.

I'll assume that the hydrometer is calibarated properly - as the high FG occurs only some of time.

Knowing the recipes for the batches with low attenuation would help with focusing any additional troubleshooting.

For now, some general questions to consider.

Did you use recipe software to estimate OG? Did you measure actual OG going into the fermenter?

• Kit instructions occasionally have errors in the printed OG.
• Actual water volume will impact OG.
• Yes, there's the possibility of stratification when using "top off" water.

How close was the actual FG to the estimated FG? For estimated and actual FG, what did you use to estimate FG (or did you use the kit information)?

• steeping crystal malts is not the same as mashing crystal malts. Does the estimation process that you used take this into account?
• Occasionally, I have see mistakes in kit printed OG/FG where the OG/FG from the all-grain kit was copied directly to the extract+grains kit.

For the batches were attenuation was low, what strain of yeast was used?

worry more about trying to be able to control ferm temperature, which I currently have zero control over.

I suspect there are some dry strains (London?) that can drop out a little earlier if wort temperature drops during the later stages of fermentation.

IMO, other dry strains (US-05, Nottingham, but not S-04) don't have this problem.

 

[AlexKay]

Lots of technical answers one could give, but my advice for beginning brewers:

1. Use dry yeast.
2. Use the right fermentation temperature.

That’ll get you 90% of the way there. Maybe 99%.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Also, when in the beginning brewers forum, troubleshooting against a prioritized list of things that must be done well can defer spending $500 on brewing text books.

Here's the "top 5 (+ 1)" from a recent John Palmer presentation.

 

[Kris.J]

Anecdotal: my rendition of Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde Ale using US-05 reaches FG in nearly half the time with BSG Fermax nutrient over without. 5 tsp stirred in at last couple minutes of boil.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing. I have been researching this very thing recently. Fermax is pretty affordable as well.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Lots of technical answers one could give, but my advice for beginning brewers:

1. Use dry yeast.
2. Use the right fermentation temperature.

That’ll get you 90% of the way there. Maybe 99%.

I might add a #3 as "Pitch a reasonable amount of yeast".

I am not 100% sure what my rule is on dry yeast pitch rate though. I have had good luck with one pack of various ale yeast into 5.5 gals of wort in the 1.050 range (2 packs for a cold fermented lager). I have also had good luck with 2 packs into 5.5 gals of 1.100 ale wort. That could mean that I should be pitching 1.5 packs into a 1.075 wort, and also pitching more than 1 pack for 1.065 wort. A starter to bump up the cell count of a pack of yeast is something I have been wanting to play with.

I often make 2.5 gal batches (starting with ~2.7 gal of wort) and I often pitch 1 pack of dry yeast into a variety of gravity worts.

 

[AlexKay]

I might add a #3 as "Pitch a reasonable amount of yeast".

I had typed that out as a #3, then erased it before posting. It’s certainly true, but I think it’s skippable if the goal is to get 90-99% of the way there. So are yeast nutrients. So is rehydration. And aeration is not necessary at all with dry yeast.

That was the reasoning behind #1 ( use dry yeast.) Liquid yeast of course gives you more options, but you do have to worry about aeration and pitch rate. Pitching an old pack of WLP833 with no starter and no aeration will not get a beginner 90% of the way there, at least not reliably. One sachet of 34/70 will.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Periodically, it's worth mentioning that Lallemand has a pitching rate calculator:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/pitching-rate-calculator/

 

[Willy]

Yeast nutrition & starter using results in fermentation beginning sooner and more robust. Importance ? 3 out of 5

Aeration - needs to done. Makes a big difference. I use bucket fermentation and have learned how to methodically rock/tip/swirl the wort to create a huge whirlpool. Kinda looks like a tornado. I don't think you need a stone or an O2 tank. Just learn the wort whirlpool and rock it in time for a minute or two.
Importance - 5 out of 5

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Anecdotal: my rendition of Biermuncher's Centennial Blonde Ale using US-05 reaches FG in nearly half the time with BSG Fermax nutrient over without. 5 tsp stirred in at last couple minutes of boil.

I started using the Fermax in the past year. I was curious about when to add it, and how it might skew my OG reading. Is it too little to make any significant difference? I really don’t know, but would love to hear any opinions.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Periodically, it's worth mentioning that Lallemand has a pitching rate calculator:

The question for me is: When is 1 pack of dry yeast "close enough" and when do I need to purchase a second pack?

Looking back at my batches for the last few years, I just see one case where I pitched 1 pack of dry yeast into a 5-gallon batch where my OG was above 1.055. That batch was a IPA with a 1.063 OG using Nottingham. Looking at the fermentation data for that batch, it looks excellent. Fermentation started fast and I got good attenuation in a few days. The calculator says I should have used 15.6 g or 2 packs (the calculator does not suggest partial packs, but 1.5 packs would have been about ideal).

I would also note that with many of today's liquid yeast vendors selling 200B (ish) cell packs of liquid yeast, that has limited the need for some steps like a starter. In year's past, many people made decent beer with a 100B cell pack from Wyeast and White Labs, and now many packs are twice that amount of yeast. (The downside of liquid yeast being the limited shelf life that needs to be taken into account).

 

[Bobby_M]

The question for me is: When is 1 pack of dry yeast "close enough" and when do I need to purchase a second pack?

Looking back at my batches for the last few years, I just see one case where I pitched 1 pack of dry yeast into a 5-gallon batch where my OG was above 1.055. That batch was a IPA with a 1.063 OG using Nottingham. Looking at the fermentation data for that batch, it looks excellent. Fermentation started fast and I got good attenuation in a few days. The calculator says I should have used 15.6 g or 2 packs (the calculator does not suggest partial packs, but 1.5 packs would have been about ideal).

I would also note that with many of today's liquid yeast vendors selling 200B (ish) cell packs of liquid yeast, that has limited the need for some steps like a starter. In year's past, many people made decent beer with a 100B cell pack from Wyeast and White Labs, and now many packs are twice that amount of yeast. (The downside of liquid yeast being the limited shelf life that needs to be taken into account).

More yeast for:
Suppressing esters
Fermenting colder (to suppress esters more)
Very High OG
Moderately higher OG when you don't want to rehydrate (since you're going to kill some yeast due to the high osmotic pressure).
Less chance of post fermentation lingering byproducts

Less yeast for:
Fermenting hotter (Kviek)
Expression of esters and other yeast driven character/phenols

There are a lot of interconnections between the above and good temp control or lackthereof.. For example, if someone doesn't have any temp control and the ambient temps are "too warm", there can be a case where underpitching is better overall. It will keep the temp from running away and then abruptly crashing at the end. If the ambient temp is too cold, overpitching would better deal with the tendency to crash out and leave diacetyl and acetaldehyde.
The truth is, dialed in pitch rates and temp control are both important to brew to plan and be repeatable.

I also go back to the fact that we collectively have a hard time defining what "decent beer" means and that threshold is a moving target even if you ask one brewer. 20 years ago I was thrilled to have brewed beer that I would drain pour today. Looking back, the good to great beers were more luck than skill and mastery. I think that's especially the case for people who grab one pack of liquid yeast and just pitch it. The starting cell count matters but nowhere near as much as the pack's age and storage conditions do. You either have 200B cells or 2B.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The question for me is: When is 1 pack of dry yeast "close enough" and when do I need to purchase a second pack?

Maybe this?

• For a "one off" strain, round up to the next pack.
• For "house" strains, maybe round up to the nearest 0.5 pack.

using Nottingham

In the past, I found Nottingham (and US-05) to be a "work horse": they show up (in spite of inconveniences) and get the job done. Maybe my definition of ""decent beer" ( see what @Bobby_M mentioned above) has changed. I have both in stock for some summer brews.

There are a lot of interconnections between the above and good temp control or lackthereof..

Some personal thoughts on fermentation temperature control (over the last six months):

• WLPD001 needs a diacetyl rest (just "do it" and the beer will be fine).
• Verdant seems to prefer cleaning up at higher temperatures (ferments "ok" at 65F but seems to need 67F+ to get to "estimated" FG and clean up)
• London (RIP for now) seems attenuate better at higher temperatures