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Maris Otter as base malt for stout? And other advice

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worlddivides

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Hi guys, I've been making my own beer recipes for a while now, and they've been coming out great, but I'm making a beer for my friend and his wife, based off of the various things that they like and I wanted your advice.

Originally I was thinking of just using 2-row barley as the base, but I remember making an English-style brown ale a while back that used Maris Otter as the base, and I really liked that flavor, so I was wondering how that would go as the base malt for a milk stout (a high ABV milk stout, as per my friend's wife's desire for an espresso stout near 7% ABV).

The basic idea is a mixture of an espresso stout with a milk stout, but I'm trying to get the balance right. I'm planning on using 1 pound of lactose for the milk side, but I'm not sure how much cold-brewed coffee to use for the coffee side.

Anyway, here's my recipe:
10 pounds of Maris Otter pale malt
1 pound of dry malt extract
0.5 pounds of roasted barley malt
0.5 pounds of Crystal 120L
0.5 pounds of flaked barley
0.25 pounds of chocolate malt
0.25 pounds of black patent malt
1 pound of lactose

1 ounce of Northern Brewer hops for 60 minutes
1 ounce of East Kent Goldings for 15 minutes
1 ounce of East Kent Goldings for 5 minutes

Cold brewed coffee in secondary - how much? I have noooo idea.

ABV: 6.75%
SRM: 32
IBU: 37

If you see anything that looks wrong or if you have any suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance! I've only make 2 of my own stout recipes so far, so I'm far from experienced at it.
 

Kent88

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Maris Otter will be fine as a base malt. It might be interesting when it comes to sparging, it can be a little sticky.

Your grain bill seems a little complicated, but I believe all those grains are common to stouts.
 

mmiddleton

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I've been using Maris Otter in my SMaSH brews (except the most recent one; tried all Vienna malt, just for a change of scenery), and I think the flavour profile would be an excellent base for a stout.
 

jodell

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Hi guys, I've been making my own beer recipes for a while now, and they've been coming out great, but I'm making a beer for my friend and his wife, based off of the various things that they like and I wanted your advice.

Originally I was thinking of just using 2-row barley as the base, but I remember making an English-style brown ale a while back that used Maris Otter as the base, and I really liked that flavor, so I was wondering how that would go as the base malt for a milk stout (a high ABV milk stout, as per my friend's wife's desire for an espresso stout near 7% ABV).

The basic idea is a mixture of an espresso stout with a milk stout, but I'm trying to get the balance right. I'm planning on using 1 pound of lactose for the milk side, but I'm not sure how much cold-brewed coffee to use for the coffee side.

Anyway, here's my recipe:
10 pounds of Maris Otter pale malt
1 pound of dry malt extract
0.5 pounds of roasted barley malt
0.5 pounds of Crystal 120L
0.5 pounds of flaked barley
0.25 pounds of chocolate malt
0.25 pounds of black patent malt
1 pound of lactose

1 ounce of Northern Brewer hops for 60 minutes
1 ounce of East Kent Goldings for 15 minutes
1 ounce of East Kent Goldings for 5 minutes

Cold brewed coffee in secondary - how much? I have noooo idea.

ABV: 6.75%
SRM: 32
IBU: 37

If you see anything that looks wrong or if you have any suggestions, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance! I've only make 2 of my own stout recipes so far, so I'm far from experienced at it.
Somewhere between 2-6oz per gallon of concentrated coldbrew is ideal. I add 4 in mine and its a great addition
 

jrgtr42

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What is the reasoning on the DME?
You could dump that, maybe increase the base by a bit and get the same effect.

Also, with the coffee, I would say to go low, taste it, and if it needs more, you can add more coffee. It's a lot harder to take it out. ;)
 

blackbeer

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i'd skip the dme and jack up the MO to 12lbs. i also like black prinz malt in my stouts and porters. i cold soak it overnight, strain and dump liquid into boil last 15 minutes. this gives it a nice coffee-ish flavor without the bitterness
 
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worlddivides

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What is the reasoning on the DME?
You could dump that, maybe increase the base by a bit and get the same effect.

Also, with the coffee, I would say to go low, taste it, and if it needs more, you can add more coffee. It's a lot harder to take it out. ;)
i'd skip the dme and jack up the MO to 12lbs. i also like black prinz malt in my stouts and porters. i cold soak it overnight, strain and dump liquid into boil last 15 minutes. this gives it a nice coffee-ish flavor without the bitterness
Yeah, I think you guys are right. I originally put the 1 pound of DME in there when I was using 2-row just to get the ABV closer to 7% (for my friend's wife), but if I'm going to be buying Maris Otter from scratch, I really don't need the DME at all.

What's Black Prinz? I've never heard of that before.

Somewhere between 2-6oz per gallon of concentrated coldbrew is ideal. I add 4 in mine and its a great addition
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind as a nice starting point.
 

Kent88

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@worlddivides I've used belgian debittered black malt in sweet stouts and it turned out good. A week ago I tried the same recipe with Black Prinz. I think there is something called Perla Negra that is supposed to be in that "family" as well. You could sub your 4oz of Black Malt for it.
 
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worlddivides

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@worlddivides I've used belgian debittered black malt in sweet stouts and it turned out good. A week ago I tried the same recipe with Black Prinz. I think there is something called Perla Negra that is supposed to be in that "family" as well. You could sub your 4oz of Black Malt for it.
I looked up Perla Negra, and it looks pretty good, but it doesn't seem to be available on any of the online homebrewing shops I use (Morebeer, Northern Brewer, etc.).

I do think I will substitute my Black Patent malt for the Blackprinz. That stuff seems like it'll work pretty nicely.
 

mmiddleton

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i'd skip the dme and jack up the MO to 12lbs. i also like black prinz malt in my stouts and porters. i cold soak it overnight, strain and dump liquid into boil last 15 minutes. this gives it a nice coffee-ish flavor without the bitterness
+1 to Black Prinz. Used it in my Founders Breakfast Stout clone, and ended up skipping the coffee that the original recipe called for in the secondary (still added it to the boil).
 

RM-MN

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Maris Otter is known for it flavor but will you still be able to find that in the stout where you have all the dark grains to hide it or would you be just as well off with pale malt and save the Maris Otter for a lighter brew where it's flavor would be the star attraction?
 

mattdc26

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When I lived in England the pnly base malt in bulk we could really get was Marris and I used it in all my beer styles with great results including my coffee stouts! I would suggest .5lbs of lactose I have gone down your road before and found .5lbs to be the right combo for my my taste buds along with about 8OZ of cold brew coffee.
 
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worlddivides

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When I lived in England the pnly base malt in bulk we could really get was Marris and I used it in all my beer styles with great results including my coffee stouts! I would suggest .5lbs of lactose I have gone down your road before and found .5lbs to be the right combo for my my taste buds along with about 8OZ of cold brew coffee.
Nice to know about Maris Otter.

I know that 0.5 pounds of lactose is pretty normal, but I've made a milk stout before (no coffee unlike this time, much lower in alcohol, and a much simpler grain bill) where I used 1 pound of lactose because I wanted a noticeable creamy sweetness to it, and I was really pleased with how it turned out. It might just be personal taste. Or are you suggesting that you'd use 1 pound of lactose in a milk stout, but 0.5 pounds in a "cafe latte stout" (or whatever you'd call a stout with both coffee and lactose)?
 

z-bob

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At the last homebrew club meeting, someone brought a coffee stout (with a lot of coffee in it.) It tasted about the same as a beer I made 18 months ago that was supposed to be a strong porter with 2 pounds of brown malt in it, and the LHBS ordered Simpson's "brown coffee malt" instead of brown malt and I didn't realize it until I'd already used it.

Coffee malt roasted a lot darker than brown malt; almost chocolate malt. That beer took a long time to come around, but it really did taste like it had coffee in it. It was also kind of sweet from all the unfermentables in the dark malt (was way too sweet at first)
 
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worlddivides

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At the last homebrew club meeting, someone brought a coffee stout (with a lot of coffee in it.) It tasted about the same as a beer I made 18 months ago that was supposed to be a strong porter with 2 pounds of brown malt in it, and the LHBS ordered Simpson's "brown coffee malt" instead of brown malt and I didn't realize it until I'd already used it.

Coffee malt roasted a lot darker than brown malt; almost chocolate malt. That beer took a long time to come around, but it really did taste like it had coffee in it. It was also kind of sweet from all the unfermentables in the dark malt (was way too sweet at first)
Yeah, I've definitely had stouts that used large amounts of dark malts and tasted like coffee even though they didn't actually contain any coffee.

I'm trying to get a pretty distinct "authentic" coffee flavor, largely because my friend's wife both loves coffee and coffee stouts. Lagunitas's Espresso Stout is one of her favorite beers, but I don't want to make a clone of that. I'm trying to make a coffee stout that tastes different from what she's used to. Otherwise, why not just buy what she already likes?

I'm thinking now about what coffee beans to use for the cold-brewed coffee, and I've narrowed it down.
 

mmiddleton

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For the coffee, I used Kicking Horse's Cliffhanger Espresso. Not sure if it's available in the US, but it's one of my favourite coffees.
 

popsicleian

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Maris Otter is known for it flavor but will you still be able to find that in the stout where you have all the dark grains to hide it or would you be just as well off with pale malt and save the Maris Otter for a lighter brew where it's flavor would be the star attraction?
I agree with this. I think it will be plenty good with the Maris Otter, but with all that other stuff you might be better off saving money and using plain 2-row or pale ale malt. I don't think you'll be able to taste much of a difference with the Maris Otter.
 
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worlddivides

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I agree with this. I think it will be plenty good with the Maris Otter, but with all that other stuff you might be better off saving money and using plain 2-row or pale ale malt. I don't think you'll be able to taste much of a difference with the Maris Otter.
Yeah, it's definitely something I'm considering now. I did buy the Marris Otter, but I have one beer planned after this one that uses about 8 pounds of 2-row barley as the base. And I'm considering whether to switch the 2-row barley from that for the stout and use the Maris Otter for that beer (a rather hoppy American/English pale ale hybrid).

I'm still up in the air about it at the moment because I do agree that most likely the specialty grains will overpower that wonderful Maris Otter character, but I'm thinking it might still be worth it (even though Maris Otter is a bit expensive for a base malt).
 

kh54s10

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Yeah, it's definitely something I'm considering now. I did buy the Marris Otter, but I have one beer planned after this one that uses about 8 pounds of 2-row barley as the base. And I'm considering whether to switch the 2-row barley from that for the stout and use the Maris Otter for that beer (a rather hoppy American/English pale ale hybrid).

I'm still up in the air about it at the moment because I do agree that most likely the specialty grains will overpower that wonderful Maris Otter character, but I'm thinking it might still be worth it (even though Maris Otter is a bit expensive for a base malt).
It all depends on whether you want to save some money.
As stated all the other dark malts will cover the complexity of the Maris Otter.
But using Maris Otter, will add a complexity to the flavors that is very nice.
My Coffee Stout used 4 ounces of fresh ground Papua New Guinea beans cold steeped in a quart of water for 3-4 days. I then tried to filter through paper coffee filters. That didn't work so well. When I do the next one I will use a french press.
 
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worlddivides

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It all depends on whether you want to save some money.
As stated all the other dark malts will cover the complexity of the Maris Otter.
But using Maris Otter, will add a complexity to the flavors that is very nice.
My Coffee Stout used 4 ounces of fresh ground Papua New Guinea beans cold steeped in a quart of water for 3-4 days. I then tried to filter through paper coffee filters. That didn't work so well. When I do the next one I will use a french press.
At the moment, I'm definitely leaning towards using the Maris Otter in the stout, even though it won't lend as much complexity as it would in a more simple beer, but I've still got at least a week until I brew the beer (although I already purchased the ingredients that I didn't have).

I've heard some really good things about using a French press to make cold-brewed coffee.
 

kh54s10

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At the moment, I'm definitely leaning towards using the Maris Otter in the stout, even though it won't lend as much complexity as it would in a more simple beer, but I've still got at least a week until I brew the beer (although I already purchased the ingredients that I didn't have).

I've heard some really good things about using a French press to make cold-brewed coffee.
Actually the complexity of the Maris Otter compared to standard 2 row will still be there. It is just a lot more noticeable in a lighter beer that will allow it to stand out, again in comparison to standard 2 row.

I tried the paper coffee filter thinking the coffee would just drain out and I could squeeze the rest. Not so. The grounds filled the filter too full to pull the edges together to squeeze out the liquid. I made a mess and didn't get as much liquid as I expected. But it was concentrated and quite noticeable in my stout. A French press would at least keep the grounds contained.
 

Dcpcooks

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Mason otter is a premium 2 row malt. It will be great in that beer but it will cost a bit more than regular 2row. It shouldn't be price limiting. I am a firm believer in you get out what you put in so I say go for it.
 
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worlddivides

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Actually the complexity of the Maris Otter compared to standard 2 row will still be there. It is just a lot more noticeable in a lighter beer that will allow it to stand out, again in comparison to standard 2 row.

I tried the paper coffee filter thinking the coffee would just drain out and I could squeeze the rest. Not so. The grounds filled the filter too full to pull the edges together to squeeze out the liquid. I made a mess and didn't get as much liquid as I expected. But it was concentrated and quite noticeable in my stout. A French press would at least keep the grounds contained.
I've heard about that issue. I find that getting the grind on the coffee beans right is important. You don't want it nearly as fine as you'd use in regular drip coffee, but you also don't want to go TOO coarse.

Mason otter is a premium 2 row malt. It will be great in that beer but it will cost a bit more than regular 2row. It shouldn't be price limiting. I am a firm believer in you get out what you put in so I say go for it.
Yeah, I first noticed how much more expensive the Maris Otter was in a brown ale I made where Maris Otter was the base. It was a somewhat simple grain bill, so the Maris Otter did stick out quite a bit, even with some darker specialty grains in there (but granted, not as much as it would have in, say, an ESB or an English-style pale ale).

In that beer, I 100% thought it was worth the premium. I can't say whether I think it'll be worth it or not until I brew the stout, but I imagine it'll contribute enough of that character for me to consider it worth it.
 

PDevlin75

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Somewhere between 2-6oz per gallon of concentrated coldbrew is ideal. I add 4 in mine and its a great addition
I used a cup and a half (12 oz) of cold brewed coffee at bottling for a coffee oatmeal stout... I thought it turned out quite well. So as far as using 2-6oz per gallon, that works out about right. I had added that to the oatmeal stout recipe from Brewing Classic Styles. That was a year ago. I saved a case of them, and I think it aged very nicely!

Since then, I've attempted my own new recipe, and I only added 8 oz this time around. Not because I felt it was too strong, but just because. I'll be trying one of them for the first time this weekend.

I used a large french press to make my cold brew. Again, it was over a year ago that I first tried it, and looking up cold brew at the time, I somehow came to figure on using about 4 oz of coffee in 3 cups of water. That gave me somewhere around 2 cups of concentrate to work with.

Good luck!
-Pete
 
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worlddivides

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At the moment I'm thinking of using a total of 16-20 ounces (about 2-2.5 cups) of cold-brewed Kona coffee for the full 5 gallons, added a couple days after primary fermentation has concluded.

@worlddivides . Hi. Here's another coffee milk stout thread that might provide some insight to a coffee stout that you're looking to build. I live in the Memphis area and Wiseacre's "Gotta Get Up To Get Down" Coffee Milk stout is really good. I'm sure the MO will be a great base for this as well. Hope it helps. Ed
:mug:
Thanks for the references. I bought 1 pound of lactose, but I'm thinking of maybe using around 0.75 pounds instead of the full pound I had originally planned on.
 

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Actually the complexity of the Maris Otter compared to standard 2 row will still be there. It is just a lot more noticeable in a lighter beer that will allow it to stand out, again in comparison to standard 2 row.
On a recent stout I cheaped out and used 2-row instead of the MO that I was using previously, based on the logic that “the difference will not be noticeable with all of the dark malts” and I ended up regretting it. The result was different, and not in a good way.
 
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worlddivides

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So I brewed this beer 2 weeks ago and I just took a gravity sample today.

It tastes AMAZING.

But I'm really surprised at how high the final gravity is. 1.030! Now, I expected it to be over 1.020 because of the lactose and all the unfermentable sugars from the dark roasted grains (my recipe estimated a final gravity of around 1.023), but I didn't expect it would be as high as 1.030. So, instead of the predicted ABV of 6.76%, it's an actual ABV of more like 6.02%.

Do you think the 22 ounces of coldbrewed coffee increased the final gravity by a few points? Not by sugar (since there is no sugar in black coffee), but just by it being denser than water? Or was the yeast just less attenuating than predicted?
 

RedlegEd

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So I brewed this beer 2 weeks ago and I just took a gravity sample today.

It tastes AMAZING.

But I'm really surprised at how high the final gravity is. 1.030! Now, I expected it to be over 1.020 because of the lactose and all the unfermentable sugars from the dark roasted grains (my recipe estimated a final gravity of around 1.023), but I didn't expect it would be as high as 1.030. So, instead of the predicted ABV of 6.76%, it's an actual ABV of more like 6.02%.

Do you think the 22 ounces of coldbrewed coffee increased the final gravity by a few points? Not by sugar (since there is no sugar in black coffee), but just by it being denser than water? Or was the yeast just less attenuating than predicted?
That's really good to hear. It's always great when a new recipe comes together. What was your final recipe, and what, if any, changes would you make next time? Ed
:mug:
 
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worlddivides

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That's really good to hear. It's always great when a new recipe comes together. What was your final recipe, and what, if any, changes would you make next time? Ed
:mug:
It was the recipe on the first page, but with 12 pounds of Maris Otter without the dry malt extract and 0.8 pounds of lactose instead of 1 pound. Even so, the final gravity was 1.078, so a bit higher than I planned (but with a final gravity of 1.030, meaning a lower ABV than I planned as well). I also used 22 ounces of coldbrewed Kona coffee instead of whatever I had on the original recipe. I do really like how malty it tastes, despite it being the highest final gravity I've ever had before.

I'll have to wait until it carbs up before I can comment on what I'd change (if anything). I'm aiming for 2.1 CO2 volumes and I'd like to age it for at least a few weeks before I can really comment on what I might not like about it (at the moment, there isn't anything, but it's also not in its final state).
 

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If it taste good I wouldnt sweat anything. If I brewed it again I might check my thermometer and go 3 degrees colder in the mash.:mug:
 
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