New Challenge for Brewing: Stouts

[yard_bird]

Greetings,
I'm working with a new homebrewing challenge that is really engaging for me. I order my grain/yeast/hops online because of free shipping/not wanting to kill a day driving to and from the homebrew store. Because of this, I order milled grains by the pound from the supplier. This has been great because it forces me to use stuff up/not have leftovers/brew consecutive batches of similar styles.

The latest iteration: I'm brewing a American stout and imperial stout. I plan to split 1# of crystal 60, 1# of chocolate malt, and 1# of Carafa between the two recipes. I can brew both of these the same weekend, so I'm not worried too much about malt freshness. I guess what I'm looking for is feedback on these two grists i.e. amount of roasted grains/should I keep the Carafa. Not too concerned with hopping because I have a good selection in the freezer.

American (about 4gallons of 1.063):
10# 2row (80% of grist)
1# Roasted barley (8% of grist)
0.5# Crystal 60 (4% of grist)
0.5# Chocolate malt (4% of grist)
0.5# Carafa (I, II, or III?) (4% of grist)

Imperial (about 3 gallons of 1.116):
10# M/O (or 2-row if it doesn't make a huge difference) (65% of grist)
1# Brown malt (6% of grist)
1# Roasted barley (6% of grist)
0.5# Crystal 60 (3% of grist)
0.5# Chocolate malt (3% of grist)
0.5# Carafa (3% of grist)
1# D-180 (6% of grist)
1# Invert 3 (6% of grist)

Thanks all.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Frankly, I don't see what the Carafa is bringing to the party. Carafa is a subtle malt compared to roast barley or chocolate malts.

You have adequate roast barley and chocolate malts in both grists to wholesale delete the Carafa. Anything the Carafa is bringing to the party the roast barley and chocolate malts are already bringing at 4x the gain levels. It's just going to get drown out by your already solid dark malt additions--and likely add to your need to raise the pH. Regarding the imperial stout, it's taking up valuable tun space without adding many gravity points.

With that said, I have a general preference for simple, uncluttered grists. You might not have that preference, so it's hard for me to say that it's a solid idea. Personally, I think it's a no-brainer.

I would like to discuss your sugar budget in the Imperial stout, however. First of all, good job with the brown malt! You're a good person and you have good taste. I think either D-180 or Invert #3 is a great choice, but, in my mind's eye, I just see them tripping over each other when used in the same grist. I've never used them together, so I can't say it's a bad idea...but, I can't image why you'd do it.

Nevertheless, I see what you're doing there. You're trying to pump your gravity points with sugar and I think that's great! In a huge beer like this, sugar makes the beer drinkable so 12% sugar is a great idea! Personally, I'd use 2lbs of Invert #3 because it's cheap, very easy to make, and it really gets along with brown malt. Others will object to this point, but taste is a difficult thing to offer advice about.

I'd also delete the C-malt in the imperial. This beer will have more than enough gravity, sweetness, and richness--the things that C-malts provide. Personally, I would make up those missing gravity points with either more base malt, flaked corn, or boring ol' cane sugar. At the end of the day, you want this thing to be so drinkable that it tempts you with a second serving that you can't have, right? Or, as the Belgians brilliantly put it, "digestible."

Regarding the C-malt, if the deletion of the C-60 in the imperial crimps your logistics, you can put an entire pound in the American Stout. That was a very, very common grist in the 90's and it's a good one--if a bit heavy. If you go that route, use an ounce of Cascades at 5, KO, and don't be bashful about using an ounce as a dry hop. That was a very common US stout recipe in the 90's.

Finally, it sounds like you might be new to dark beers. If so, you're likely going to have to start thinking about your water in a very different way than pale beers. Prior to embarking upon an expensive US stout and a really, really expensive imperial stout, allow me to suggest that you instead brew a 10% roasted barley and 90% base malt stout at 1.040 to learn how your water works with properly black grists. There are a lot of brewers that swear they can't make a black beer to save their life because they never bothered to learn their water prior to striking in on an imperial stout.

Anyway, that's what I think I know, for what it's worth. Hope it was useful.

 

[day_trippr]

Is this being brewed for general consumption - or for a bold stout lover?
I ask because 16% "black or nearly so" malts seems high for most folks' palates...or more specifically, the backs of their throats...

Cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

Frankly, I don't see what the Carafa is bringing to the party. Carafa is a subtle malt compared to roast barley or chocolate malts.

You have adequate roast barley and chocolate malts in both grists to wholesale delete the Carafa. Anything the Carafa is bringing to the party the roast barley and chocolate malts are already bringing at 4x the gain levels. It's just going to get drown out by your already solid dark malt additions--and likely add to your need to raise the pH. Regarding the imperial stout, it's taking up valuable tun space without adding many gravity points.

With that said, I have a general preference for simple, uncluttered grists. You might not have that preference, so it's hard for me to say that it's a solid idea. Personally, I think it's a no-brainer.

I would like to discuss your sugar budget in the Imperial stout, however. First of all, good job with the brown malt! You're a good person and you have good taste. I think either D-180 or Invert #3 is a great choice, but, in my mind's eye, I just see them tripping over each other when used in the same grist. I've never used them together, so I can't say it's a bad idea...but, I can't image why you'd do it.

Nevertheless, I see what you're doing there. You're trying to pump your gravity points with sugar and I think that's great! In a huge beer like this, sugar makes the beer drinkable so 12% sugar is a great idea! Personally, I'd use 2lbs of Invert #3 because it's cheap, very easy to make, and it really gets along with brown malt. Others will object to this point, but taste is a difficult thing to offer advice about.

I'd also delete the C-malt in the imperial. This beer will have more than enough gravity, sweetness, and richness--the things that C-malts provide. Personally, I would make up those missing gravity points with either more base malt, flaked corn, or boring ol' cane sugar. At the end of the day, you want this thing to be so drinkable that it tempts you with a second serving that you can't have, right? Or, as the Belgians brilliantly put it, "digestible."

Regarding the C-malt, if the deletion of the C-60 in the imperial crimps your logistics, you can put an entire pound in the American Stout. That was a very, very common grist in the 90's and it's a good one--if a bit heavy. If you go that route, use an ounce of Cascades at 5, KO, and don't be bashful about using an ounce as a dry hop. That was a very common US stout recipe in the 90's.

Finally, it sounds like you might be new to dark beers. If so, you're likely going to have to start thinking about your water in a very different way than pale beers. Prior to embarking upon an expensive US stout and a really, really expensive imperial stout, allow me to suggest that you instead brew a 10% roasted barley and 90% base malt stout at 1.040 to learn how your water works with properly black grists. There are a lot of brewers that swear they can't make a black beer to save their life because they never bothered to learn their water prior to striking in on an imperial stout.

Anyway, that's what I think I know, for what it's worth. Hope it was useful.

Great post, and I agree on removing the carafa (though, it would do no harm). For a stout, the only thing that is mandatory is the roasted barley. Without it, you have a porter.

(never, ever, say or write "Personally, I ...").

 

[MaxStout]

Finally, it sounds like you might be new to dark beers. If so, you're likely going to have to start thinking about your water in a very different way than pale beers. Prior to embarking upon an expensive US stout and a really, really expensive imperial stout, allow me to suggest that you instead brew a 10% roasted barley and 90% base malt stout at 1.040 to learn how your water works with properly black grists. There are a lot of brewers that swear they can't make a black beer to save their life because they never bothered to learn their water prior to striking in on an imperial stout.

Anyway, that's what I think I know, for what it's worth. Hope it was useful.

I'm with @Bramling Cross on doing a test run of dark beer brewing, before you dive head-first into those big beers. Dark, roasted grain lowers the mash pH, so some experimenting may be in order. If you don't have a pH meter, download the free Brew 'n Water spreadsheet and enter that grain bill in the input. That will give you a good ballpark of where your water chem will be. If predicted pH is too low (like below 5.2), there's a trick you can do. Crush your roast grains separately, set them aside, dough in the others, then add the roasted grains the last 15-20 minutes of the rest.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Great post, and I agree on removing the carafa (though, it would do no harm). For a stout, the only thing that is mandatory is the roasted barley. Without it, you have a porter.

(never, ever, say or write "Personally, I ...").

Pedantic jerk that I am, I'll argue that you can't have a porter without the brown malt...but that's a different thread.

I only mention this because my zealotry knows no bounds regarding this point.

I am a rabid, deranged, maniac regarding porter and brown malt.

 

[passedpawn]

OK I'm making something with brown malt this weekend.

 

[MaxStout]

Fuller's London Porter clone, FTW.

 

[pvtpublic]

Finally, it sounds like you might be new to dark beers. If so, you're likely going to have to start thinking about your water in a very different way than pale beers. Prior to embarking upon an expensive US stout and a really, really expensive imperial stout, allow me to suggest that you instead brew a 10% roasted barley and 90% base malt stout at 1.040 to learn how your water works with properly black grists. There are a lot of brewers that swear they can't make a black beer to save their life because they never bothered to learn their water prior to striking in on an imperial stout.

Before switching to RO water, I used the same water (without adjustments) for cream ales, IPAs, stouts, etc. with great results. It was just the water I would get from my well at first, and then water from the grocery store after I moved. I did, however, only add the roasted malts at the end of my mash to avoid tannin extraction and developing a burnt character.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Pedantic jerk that I am, I'll argue that you can't have a porter without the brown malt...but that's a different thread.

I only mention this because my zealotry knows no bounds regarding this point.

I am a rabid, deranged, maniac regarding porter and brown malt.

Being more pedantic - you can't have a London porter without brown malt.....

Going back to the OP, this sounds like you could save yourself a bit of work and partigyle the two stouts together....

 

[kevin58]

^^ Yes, and yes.

 

[yard_bird]

Thank you all for such well thought out responses. Hopefully I can address most of them in this post:

• I'll drop the Carafa from both and (probably) move the balance of the C60 to the American stout. I have a couple oz of cascade in the freezer that I'll dump into this. Great recommendation.
• Correct: pretty new to stout brewing. I have a dry Irish stout recipe that I enjoy and will be brewing the couple weeks before these two. I started getting into my water from brewing this recipe, but I was pretty satisfied with the way it turned out (base grain, flaked, and 15% roasted). I added baking soda to my mash to bump up pH to ~5.5 last time and would probably repeat with these recipes.
• I wanted to have a pretty high percentage of roasted malts (for the imperial especially) because I plan on squirreling much of it away so I can see how it evolves at it ages, and I think I like roast. Might swap chocolate for a paler chocolate.
• Sugar: I got the inspiration for using Invert 3 with D-180 from MadFermentationist's Courage recipe, except he uses D-90 and D-180. The description of D-90 seemed close enough to Invert 3 to use alongside the D-180. Though cost is definitely something to consider... My other reason for using the D-180 is that I like how pourable it is. When I do my high gravity Belgians, I add this on ~day 3 or 4 of fermentation. No drip, no heating, no mess if I'm careful. I plan to feed my imperial similarly and would need a way to get all my Invert 3 into the VF. Maybe store in a big squeeze bottle? Any reason not to do 1# of Invert 3 and Invert 4 in the imperial? If I'm making a big batch I figure make a couple grades in the oven.
• Might add roasted at the end of the mash. I batch sparge in an Igloo so I'll add them right before I start vorlaufing and keep them in until after I've run off the last of things.
• Might parti-gyle...I've done it once before with okay results.

Thanks all for the contributions, I really do appreciate it. I'll post the final grist I end up going with and (if I remember in a few months) report back with beer stats/tasting notes.

 

[passedpawn]

Thank you all for such well thought out responses. Hopefully I can address most of them in this post:

• I'll drop the Carafa from both and (probably) move the balance of the C60 to the American stout. I have a couple oz of cascade in the freezer that I'll dump into this. Great recommendation.
• Correct: pretty new to stout brewing. I have a dry Irish stout recipe that I enjoy and will be brewing the couple weeks before these two. I started getting into my water from brewing this recipe, but I was pretty satisfied with the way it turned out (base grain, flaked, and 15% roasted). I added baking soda to my mash to bump up pH to ~5.5 last time and would probably repeat with these recipes.
• I wanted to have a pretty high percentage of roasted malts (for the imperial especially) because I plan on squirreling much of it away so I can see how it evolves at it ages, and I think I like roast. Might swap chocolate for a paler chocolate.
• Sugar: I got the inspiration for using Invert 3 with D-180 from MadFermentationist's Courage recipe, except he uses D-90 and D-180. The description of D-90 seemed close enough to Invert 3 to use alongside the D-180. Though cost is definitely something to consider... My other reason for using the D-180 is that I like how pourable it is. When I do my high gravity Belgians, I add this on ~day 3 or 4 of fermentation. No drip, no heating, no mess if I'm careful. I plan to feed my imperial similarly and would need a way to get all my Invert 3 into the VF. Maybe store in a big squeeze bottle? Any reason not to do 1# of Invert 3 and Invert 4 in the imperial? If I'm making a big batch I figure make a couple grades in the oven.
• Might add roasted at the end of the mash. I batch sparge in an Igloo so I'll add them right before I start vorlaufing and keep them in until after I've run off the last of things.
• Might parti-gyle...I've done it once before with okay results.

Thanks all for the contributions, I really do appreciate it. I'll post the final grist I end up going with and (if I remember in a few months) report back with beer stats/tasting notes.

I love your enthusiasm for the sport LOL. Good luck with all, and make sure to come back and let us know how it turned out.

 

[DuncB]

Could do your imperial and then partigyle/sparge and then reiterate mash the other grains for your smaller stout.