LoDo Techniques

[Dustin_J]

Need some help with basic math.

Sad to admit, it's been over 50 years since I struggled through college math. I'm stuck in an endless Do Loop (been 50 years since I did FORTRAN coding as well) and can't figure out where I'm making my error. It's not Diffy Q. Not even advanced calculus. We're talking basic algebra. Somebody help bail this 70 year old brain out of dementia.

Background: Trying to determine how much additional sodium (PPM) will be needed to account for in a brewing water calculation. From the LoDO brewing website, I know that 1 mg NaMeta solute in 1 liter of water results in 24 PPM additional sodium. My target volume is 23 liters, strike volume ~29.5 liters. I add .65 grams of NaMeta to my strike water to scavenge DO prior to mash-in. How many PPM does this increase the amount of sodium in both the strike water and final concentration in post boil wort? Solve. {Please show work}.

Brooo Brother

Hi Brooothru,
Keep in mind that, in water, 1mg/L ~= 1ppm. So, 1 mg of NaMeta in 1L of water yields ~.24 ppm sodium, whereas 100 Mg of NaMeta in 1L of water yields ~24 ppm sodium.

To get there, the NaMeta (SMB) molecular formula is Na2S2O5

The Elemental/Atomic masses of constituent elements are:
Na: 22.9897
S: 32.065
O: 15.9994

So, for Na2S2O5:
-Na: 22.9897*2: 45.9794
-S: 32.065*2: 64.130
-O: 15.9994*5: 79.997
45.9794 + 64.130 + 79.997 = 190.1064 = Total molecular mass of NaMeta

The Percentage Na in NaMeta, then (by mass):
- 45.9794/190.1064 = .2419. or ~24.2% Na by mass
So 1 mg of NaMeta in 1L of water should yield ~.242 ppm (Mg/L) of Na

Moving on to your stated additions:
.65 grams of NaMeta added to 29.5 L of water yields ~22 Mg/L (ppm) of NaMeta

Of that 22 Mg/L (ppm) NaMeta in your strike water:
- 24.2% is Na, so you're adding ~ 5.32 Mg/L (ppm) of sodium to your strike water

Final water/batch volume (~23 L) will be a product of both absorption/losses (from grain, Mash tun deadspace, tubing, transfer loss, etc.) as well as evaporation/concentration (boil off), so exactly estimating ppm NA in your finished volume is tough without knowing more. It should be somewhere between ~ 5.32 ppm (Assuming no losses are from evaporation, which isn't true) and ~6.82 ppm (assuming all losses are from evaporation, which also isn't true). The difference between these, of course, is pretty trivial.

 

[Brooothru]

Hi Brooothru,
Keep in mind that 1mg/L = 1ppm. So, 1 mg of NaMeta in 1L of water yields ~.24 ppm sodium, whereas 100 Mg of NaMeta in 1L of water yields ~24 ppm sodium.

Final water/batch volume (~23 L) will be a product of both absorption/losses (from grain, Mash tun deadspace, tubing, transfer loss, etc.) as well as evaporation/concentration (boil off), so exactly estimating ppm NA in your finished volume is tough without knowing more. It should be somewhere between ~ 5.32 ppm (Assuming no losses are from evaporation, which isn't true) and ~6.82 ppm (assuming all losses are from evaporation, which also isn't true). The difference between these, of course, is pretty trivial.

Thanks so much for the math, Dustin. Your solution explains it quite clearly. I thought I was on the right track, but I was off by two orders of magnitude which I couldn't resolve. I was coming out with something like 540 PPM and 650 PPM respectively. I have a couple of pages of legal pad hen-scratches to sift through to discovery where I kept misplacing the decimal points. Log_8 instead of Log_6 perhaps?

But I guess that means I'm still losing my mind. Just not as fast as I feared.

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

Thanks so much for the math, Dustin. Your solution explains it quite clearly. I thought I was on the right track, but I was off by two orders of magnitude which I couldn't resolve. I was coming out with something like 540 PPM and 650 PPM respectively. I have a couple of pages of legal pad hen-scratches to sift through to discovery where I kept misplacing the decimal points. Log_8 instead of Log_6 perhaps?

But I guess that means I'm still losing my mind. Just not as fast as I feared.

Brooo Brother

Hah! Just found it. I was using the value 24 PPM instead of 0.24 PPM. Not going nuts. Just going blind.

This getting old thang' ain't for wimps!

Brooo Brother

 

[Dustin_J]

Hah! Just found it. I was using the value 24 PPM instead of 0.24 PPM. Not going nuts. Just going blind.

This getting old thang' ain't for wimps!

Brooo Brother

No worries, I go through a few of these types of exercises periodically just to make sure I'm on track as well. Good luck!

 

[aeviaanah]

Hi Brooothru,
Keep in mind that 1mg/L = 1ppm. So, 1 mg of NaMeta in 1L of water yields ~.24 ppm sodium, whereas 100 Mg of NaMeta in 1L of water yields ~24 ppm sodium.

To get there, the NaMeta (SMB) molecular formula is Na2S2O5

The Elemental/Atomic masses of constituent elements are:
Na: 22.9897
S: 32.065
O: 15.9994

So, for Na2S2O5:
-Na: 22.9897*2: 45.9794
-S: 32.065*2: 64.130
-O: 15.9994*5: 79.997
45.9794 + 64.130 + 79.997 = 190.1064 = Total molecular mass of NaMeta

The Percentage Na in NaMeta, then (by mass):
- 45.9794/190.1064 = .2419. or ~24.2% Na by mass
So 1 mg of NaMeta in 1L of water should yield ~.242 ppm (Mg/L) of Na

Moving on to your stated additions:
.65 grams of NaMeta added to 29.5 L of water yields ~22 Mg/L (ppm) of NaMeta

Of that 22 Mg/L (ppm) NaMeta in your strike water:
- 24.2% is Na, so you're adding ~ 5.32 Mg/L (ppm) of sodium to your strike water

Final water/batch volume (~23 L) will be a product of both absorption/losses (from grain, Mash tun deadspace, tubing, transfer loss, etc.) as well as evaporation/concentration (boil off), so exactly estimating ppm NA in your finished volume is tough without knowing more. It should be somewhere between ~ 5.32 ppm (Assuming no losses are from evaporation, which isn't true) and ~6.82 ppm (assuming all losses are from evaporation, which also isn't true). The difference between these, of course, is pretty trivial.

So the percentage by mass directly converts to ppm or mg/liter?

 

[Dustin_J]

So the percentage by mass directly converts to ppm or mg/liter?

In water it does, at least at ~standard temp/pressure, as 1 mL of water has a mass of 1 gram. Not so much for other liquids necessarily. Good clarification.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Pitch the right amount of yeast and you won't have diacetyl. Simple as that.

Is it really that simple? I've had a number of moderate IPAs (OGs around 1.060) that have exhibited diacetyl issues. I always do a 2L starter of 1318 for those IPAs. I would think that would be sufficiently large yeast population for that beer.

 

[tmendick]

how are you handling dry hops? You could be suffering from hop creep

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Well, it depends on how we define whirlpool.

If we are whirlpooling to centrally locate trub and break material while cooling to pitching temps, then it isn’t much of an issue. You are subject to a short duration of atmospheric diffusion.

If we are talking about quadruple hop stew IPA whirlpooling, with prolonged time at higher temps for hop stands, then it would be advisable to utilize a cap similar to in the mash.

How do you initiate a whirlpool using a whirlpool arm without introducing oxygen?

When using a whirlpool arm wouldn't there be a significant amount of air in the tubing when initially run the wort out of the kettle into the pump, up into the arm, and back underneath the wort?

 

[JAReeves]

How do you initiate a whirlpool using a whirlpool arm without introducing oxygen?

When using a whirlpool arm wouldn't there be a significant amount of air in the tubing when initially run the wort out of the kettle into the pump, up into the arm, and back underneath the wort?

You could pump CO2 through your tubing before hooking it up.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

You could pump CO2 through your tubing before hooking it up.

What kind of fittings would you need to make the work?

I'm not picturing logistically how to do it

How would you keep the CO2 trapped in the lines after flushing and then disconnecting / reconnecting to the pump & kettle?

Could you walk me through the equipment needed and what that process would look like?

 

[TLaffey]

How do you initiate a whirlpool using a whirlpool arm without introducing oxygen?

When using a whirlpool arm wouldn't there be a significant amount of air in the tubing when initially run the wort out of the kettle into the pump, up into the arm, and back underneath the wort?

Prime the pump during the boil.

 

[JAReeves]

I have a air compressor sprayer attachment, pretty common at any auto or hardware store, I imagine. It's attached to a hose with SS Ball lock end, so it just plugs into the grey gas QD's in my keezer. Run the hose out of the keezer and I can spray CO2 onto/into anything. I use it to prime hoses, fill up kegs or carboys that need a blanket, and start the vacuum movement of liquids from a fermenter into a keg for closed transfers. I started this gravity transfer with a two-hole plug in the barrel: one for the SS racking cane and the other got a gentle push with the CO2 until it flowed on its own.

It's one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/NEIKO-31112-...t=&hvlocphy=9060629&hvtargid=pla-406644609735
Peace,

Reevesie

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

What are some strategic approaches in how to add DME to low oxygen batch and minimize O2 uptake?

I've been having great results with low oxygen brewing in general. The only problem really has been my hit in efficiency due to a no sparge system and my mash tun capacity.

This is fine for most of my beers < 1.065, but for the occasional higher gravity brew I can't get there without a little cheating (DME)

Concerns with how/when to add DME are oxygen uptake and scorching.

My kettle is electric and uses ULWD elements, I have a pump and a whirpool arm.
Should I just dump it in after flame out when I start whirlpooling with my pump until its dissolved? (Using a spoon to breakup clumps)

My thinking is that if I add it near boiling temps the wort will be very resistant in picking up O2 vs. adding it at lower temps.

Perhaps I could even bring it back to a quick boil after its fully mixed, just to negate any remaining O2 that could have been introduced when it was added. I'd just be worried about clumps getting scorched

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated

Cheers!

 

[Red over White]

Consider lme from more beer in the foil bags. Great product and easy to use, slit the very bottom of the bag and clip it to the kettle and it drains completely. Hands free, mess free and none of the nightmare mixing. It's a sano option.

 

[Unicorn_Platypus]

Consider lme from more beer in the foil bags. Great product and easy to use, slit the very bottom of the bag and clip it to the kettle and it drains completely. Hands free, mess free and none of the nightmare mixing. It's a sano option.

Thanks for the recommendation. In the past I've found LME to have twang that I didn't get with DME. I guess not all LME is created equal?

 

[Red over White]

Thanks for the recommendation. In the past I've found LME to have twang that I didn't get with DME. I guess not all LME is created equal?

I haven't had any off flavors with it all, with multiple different purchases. Perhaps, the foil oxygen barrier bag is the big difference.

 

[brewbama]

I’ve settled on trying to “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.” (Bamforth).

I don’t have the state-of-the-art packaging equipment Dr Bamforth suggests. Using closed transfer to a CO2 purged keg with extract remaining so the last 1-2% of attenuation is completed in the keg is my effort to limit O2 in final packaging. (Annemüller)

After all, draining a fermenter thru the lid or thru the QD post takes the same amount of time and effort so I figured why not. It’s easy enough and I save on bottled CO2 by using the fermenter CO2 to purge the keg and extract/yeast to carbonate the beer.

Bamforth also discusses metal ions, bottom-filling of vessels, using deaerated water for slurries, limit transfers, etc. as less important but additional steps that can be taken.

I also incorporate information I received from Joe Formanek concerning a combination of oxygen reduction and ion removal as what he termed in his note “the best case scenario”.

So, I use distilled or RO water (to reduce ions), deaerate my water (using bread yeast and table sugar), add Brewtan B (settles trüb fast to make clear beer), use no sparge (it’s faster and easier), and underlet my mash (so I don’t have to lift 7+ gallons of hot water and pour it in a MLT).