Liquid yeast - am I missing something?

[FS7]

I have used dry yeasts almost exclusively (usually Fermentis, but I've tried a few others with good success). I just brewed a Marzen and I thought I'd try White Labs WLP830. I wanted "the best," as it were.

It was not clear to me whether I should use one pouch or two. At $15, I thought I would try one. After two days, there was no activity, so I re-pitched with 34/70 and it's going just fine. So I went back and re-read the instructions. Some people had success with one, while the manufacturer recommends two. It says to use two for "cold fermentation," defined as below 61 degrees, but that makes no dang sense because it pretty much has to be in that range for the yeast to actually work. So why even sell them in one pouch sizes? The thought had crossed my mind that $30 for yeast in a five gallon batch is, to put it mildly, insane.

So am I missing something? Are you supposed to become a yeast farmer and extend the life of that single bag by perpetually using it as a starter? I don't want to babysit yeast and become an expert in fungus husbandry. It seems like there's no way it would be remotely practical to spend $30 for two pouches of yeast for 40 pints max. Almost $.80 in each pint is for yeast alone? Dry yeast is about a third of that cost. Lagers are more expensive, sure, but man, that's insane.

 

[McMullan]

Should have made a yeast starter.

 

[balrog]

Yeah, with liquid yeasts, due to age and viability, one typically makes a starter.
With lagers, one typically makes a starter to build up to what most yeast calculators recommend. See, for instance BrewersFriend, or Homebrewdads, or TallDans.

 

[FS7]

I have read that as well, at least a little, but that seems like it's replacing the $15 with the extra work of becoming a yeast farmer. If those are my options, I'd probably rather spend the $15 on a second pouch.

 

[balrog]

In this hobby, you find the process that works for you. Some don't mind the extra step, others prefer to keep it simpler, some want to save as much time or money as possible.

 

[FS7]

In this hobby, you find the process that works for you. Some don't mind the extra step, others prefer to keep it simpler, some want to save as much time or money as possible.

It doesn't exactly make a whole lot of sense, because it's counterintuitive to go through the process of brewing a beer, all grain and home milled, but complain about the extra time required to produce a sufficient quantity of viable yeast and just buy one instead. I mean why not just buy cases of beer?

You're right.

 

[McMullan]

One freshly prepped yeast starter is probably much better than two pouches, tbh. There’s really nothing better than a freshly prepped starter. I wouldn’t waste money buying multiple packs. Yeast is reusable too. Either repitch fresh for best results or save some to make a starter later.

 

[balrog]

It's a common thread for any hobby.
You can buy really good bread, but it can be fun to make them and try different ingredients and processes.
You can buy really nice furniture, but woodworking can be relaxing and fun.

I myself enjoy hearing the stirplate whirl, overbuilding and extending liquid yeast 4-6 times. I also know the ignominious defeat of finishing a starter only to have it smell like the underside of a dead road kill armadillo that lay in the Texas sun for two days.

That's a bit less enjoyable.

 

[wepeeler]

I have read that as well, at least a little, but that seems like it's replacing the $15 with the extra work of becoming a yeast farmer. If those are my options, I'd probably rather spend the $15 on a second pouch.

Yeast is less active at lower temperatures. It's common practice to double pitch rates for lagers. I use two packs of dry yeast for all my lagers.

There are simpler ways to propagate yeast nowadays to get enough cells for pitching or harvesting for future batches. You don't have to be a yeast farmer lol. You can use an online calculator like this: https://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php I've had great luck with Poland Spring bottles and some DME. 100g DME per 1000ml water. I don't even boil and cool water anymore. 24-48 hours is plenty of time for the yeast to do its thing.

 

[FS7]

Yeast is less active at lower temperatures. It's common practice to double pitch rates for lagers. I use two packs of dry yeast for all my lagers.

There are simpler ways to propagate yeast nowadays to get enough cells for pitching or harvesting for future batches. You don't have to be a yeast farmer lol. You can use an online calculator like this: https://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php I've had great luck with Poland Spring bottles and some DME. 100g DME per 1000ml water. I don't even boil and cool water anymore. 24-48 hours is plenty of time for the yeast to do its thing.

I use two packs of dry yeast as well for lagers. That's just about 60%-70% cheaper than liquid yeast in comparable quantities.

I might try that method. If it is really that simple, that's not a heavy lift.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

IIRC WLP830 takes a while to take off by itself - 2 -3 days if memory serves. Depending on the date, you could get away with using just one. Just pitch in the high 60s - low 70s and lower your temp to fermentation temp after a day.

I make lagers more than I do anything else. I've never pitched two packs, rehydrated, or made a starter for fresh yeast. The only time I'll make a starter is when the packaged yeast is past its "best by" date or if my harvested yeast is over a month old.

I've got 5 bucks on the fact that your 830 was taking off at the same time your new 34/70 was.

 

[wepeeler]

I use two packs of dry yeast as well for lagers. That's just about 60%-70% cheaper than liquid yeast in comparable quantities.

I might try that method. If it is really that simple, that's not a heavy lift.

It really is that simple. I use a flask and stir bar and plate, but you don't need to. I know plenty of people who use 2L soda bottles as flasks. Just sanitize it well before use. Shake it around every few hours or so. It's the "shaken not stirred" method of starters.

 

[FS7]

IIRC WLP830 takes a while to take off by itself - 2 -3 days if memory serves. Depending on the date, you could get away with using just one. Just pitch in the high 60s - low 70s and lower your temp to fermentation temp after a day.

I make lagers more than I do anything else. I've never pitched two packs, rehydrated, or made a starter for fresh yeast. The only time I'll make a starter is when the packaged yeast is past its "best by" date or if my harvested yeast is over a month old.

I've got 5 bucks on the fact that your 830 was taking off at the same time your new 34/70 was.

It's entirely possible. I'd read a few different things - pitch colder (40s), then raise to fermentation temperature. Most said it should definitely have started by 48 hours. It was doing nothing, and there was no krausen, so it wasn't a matter of a poor seal.

I didn't check the date, but I bought it from my local brew store on Friday (refrigerated), took it home immediately (10 minutes or so), and then refrigerated it until I pitched two days later. So I assume there was minimal loss of viability. It is possible that I just got impatient.

 

[mac_1103]

I'd probably rather spend the $15 on a second pouch.

The problem is that you will never know how viable any liquid yeast is when you get it. The manufacturer has no control over storage and shipping conditions once they send it to a distributor, and two packs of mostly dead yeast isn't going to get you the pitch rate you need. If you don't want to become a "yeast farmer" and / or spend a lot of money on multiple packs then you should probably just stick to dry.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

It's entirely possible. I'd read a few different things - pitch colder (40s), then raise to fermentation temperature. Most said it should definitely have started by 48 hours. It was doing nothing, and there was no krausen, so it wasn't a matter of a poor seal.

I didn't check the date, but I bought it from my local brew store on Friday (refrigerated), took it home immediately (10 minutes or so), and then refrigerated it until I pitched two days later. So I assume there was minimal loss of viability. It is possible that I just got impatient.

You and me both. This is why I use dry yeast 99% of the time. I feel they are just more reliable. However, if I have a need for a particular strain that is not available dry, I always try to get it in Imperial brand. Always had great luck with them.

 

[mac_1103]

I assume there was minimal loss of viability.

Unfortunately this is not a safe assumption. That pouch started losing viability the minute it was packaged.

 

[balrog]

Shake it around every few hours or so. It's the "shaken not stirred" method of starters.

I thought the SNS method utilized the fact that more growth would occur by increasing the growth area by shaking a small amount of media with the yeast in a vessel at least 4x larger, and creating/filling the entire interior with foamy bubbles.

 

[wepeeler]

I thought the SNS method utilized the fact that more growth would occur by increasing the growth area by shaking a small amount of media with the yeast in a vessel at least 4x larger, and creating/filling the entire interior with foamy bubbles.

I just meant that people claim that a stir plate isn't necessary. Shaking the starter vs using a stir bar produces similar results.

 

[Bassman2003]

The problem I see is the introduction of the $15 price point from White Labs. Other yeast companies do not charge that much. Even earlier versions of White Labs cost $7.95 It is too expensive imho.

Now, on to what you might have learned from this experience:
1) Yeast requires some knowledge and research to have a successful outcome
2) Sadly, do not trust what the yeast companies say.
3) Dry yeast is more convenient if you want less of #1
4) Lagers require at least double the amount of yeast than an ale requires. (for a successful outcome)

I would argue that liquid yeast can be the most complicated/difficult part of homebrewing until you learn how to work with it. It is worth the effort imho, but there is still some effort. So do not be a victim. Learn more about what you are brewing and take the steps to win. For some that is buying two pack of dry yeast and calling it a day. Either way, yeast is the most important part of the process imho.

 

[FS7]

The problem I see is the introduction of the $15 price point from White Labs. Other yeast companies do not charge that much. Even earlier versions of White Labs cost $7.95 It is too expensive imho.

Now, on to what you might have learned from this experience:
1) Yeast requires some knowledge and research to have a successful outcome
2) Sadly, do not trust what the yeast companies say.
3) Dry yeast is more convenient if you want less of #1
4) Lagers require at least double the amount of yeast than an ale requires. (for a successful outcome)

I would argue that liquid yeast can be the most complicated/difficult part of homebrewing until you learn how to work with it. It is worth the effort imho, but there is still some effort. So do not be a victim. Learn more about what you are brewing and take the steps to win. For some that is buying two pack of dry yeast and calling it a day. Either way, yeast is the most important part of the process imho.

I know most of that, at least to some degree. My confusion stems from the last part.

WLP830 is lager yeast, and its stated fermentation temperature is between 50 and 55. So you need more if it's lager (it is), and you need more if it's "cold" (it is, as it's well below 61 degrees), Hence I don't see any possible scenario in which you would use one package of this yeast for its stated purpose. Now the website says you can use one if you pitch at 70 as opposed to actual fermentation temperature, but how does this work? If you pitch at 70 and cool to fermentation temp (52.5, in the middle) then why does that matter? And it's referring to which, the yeast or the wort? Obviously the wort is what matters, Yeast is going to rapidly change to the wort temperature due to the difference in volume.

Basically I don't understand the practical scenario in which you can use one. Unless I'm simply impatient and it's fine to pitch at 55, it just takes more time. This seems very confusing to me, whereas dry yeast doesn't have this problem (except you might use more packets).

 

[Deadalus]

I overbuild and store 2-3 bottles of yeast ~200ml a bottle. A 2l starter needs 200g if DME~7oz. At $5/lb, 7oz DME costs $2.20. The 200 ml banked bottle is therefore $0.22. So for a lager, $15+2×$2.20+3×$0.22 is roughly $20. That's the yeast, 4l of starter and three banked bottles. Then consider using all 3 so add in 3×$4.40, which is $13.20 for a grand total of $33.20. That is $8.40 a batch. An ale would be less 4×$2.20 as only a 2l starter is needed. Thus $25.40 or $6.35 a batch. A yeast calculator usually reduces the starter volume down from 2l. I will also repeat the process for a second generation of banked bottles and then I usually buy a new one when those are gone.

It's just a few minutes here and there but if one doesn't want to it's their hobby.

@FS7 What temperature did you pitch at and what temperature were you fermenting at? Did you oxygenate? No activity, can you see inside the fermenter or use a Tilt? Vast majority of time I have activity within 24 hours and usually at 12 hours. Which I can see inside the carboy as well as now I have Tilts and other similar products. But I understand you pitched the pouch.

 

[mac_1103]

Hence I don't see any possible scenario in which you would use one package of this yeast for its stated purpose.

A small batch. Assuming you know the yeast is fresh.

It's not like the Constitution requires that we brew five gallons at a time.

 

[Bassman2003]

I know most of that, at least to some degree. My confusion stems from the last part.

WLP830 is lager yeast, and its stated fermentation temperature is between 50 and 55. So you need more if it's lager (it is), and you need more if it's "cold" (it is, as it's well below 61 degrees), Hence I don't see any possible scenario in which you would use one package of this yeast for its stated purpose. Now the website says you can use one if you pitch at 70 as opposed to actual fermentation temperature, but how does this work? If you pitch at 70 and cool to fermentation temp (52.5, in the middle) then why does that matter? And it's referring to which, the yeast or the wort? Obviously the wort is what matters, Yeast is going to rapidly change to the wort temperature due to the difference in volume.

Basically I don't understand the practical scenario in which you can use one. Unless I'm simply impatient and it's fine to pitch at 55, it just takes more time. This seems very confusing to me, whereas dry yeast doesn't have this problem (except you might use more packets).

I agree, in a better world, WL would 'right size' a package for a brew volume. Have 2.5 gallon packages, 5 gallon packages etc... Ales pitches or lager pitches... But I think they do not want to go there due to economics and the amount of cell death that is baked into delivery. They have never fessed up about this over the years. But it did not matter when packs were $7.95. Now that they are $15 we will demand more value.

The older homebrew method was to pitch lager yeast at ale temps, get it going then lower the fermentation temp down to the 50's. Many people did this.

Bottom line, you really need to be aware of born on dates with liquid yeast. Even two months from manufacture is a lot of dead cells and that is well within all of the companies' sell by date. I think we would be better served with more of an 'on demand' ordering method where the LHBS took orders and fulfilled them using their once a month or week ordering. We could adjust our brewing schedules and all have fresh yeast.

 

[FS7]

I overbuild and store 2-3 bottles of yeast ~200ml a bottle. A 2l starter needs 200g if DME~7oz. At $5/lb, 7oz DME costs $2.20. The 200 ml banked bottle is therefore $0.22. So for a lager, $15+2×$2.20+3×$0.22 is roughly $20. That's the yeast, 4l of starter and three banked bottles. Then consider using all 3 so add in 3×$4.40, which is $13.20 for a grand total of $33.20. That is $8.40 a batch. An ale would be less 4×$2.20 as only a 2l starter is needed. Thus $25.40 or $6.35 a batch. A yeast calculator usually reduces the starter volume down from 2l. I will also repeat the process for a second generation of banked bottles and then I usually buy a new one when those are gone.

It's just a few minutes here and there but if one doesn't want to it's their hobby.

@FS7 What temperature did you pitch at and what temperature were you fermenting at? Did you oxygenate? No activity, can you see inside the fermenter or use a Tilt? Vast majority of time I have activity within 24 hours and usually at 12 hours. Which I can see inside the carboy as well as now I have Tilts and other similar products. But I understand you pitched the pouch.

I pitched at around 44 or so, as that seemed to be the consensus. I had put the fermentation bucket in the controlled freezer for this purpose with a setpoint at 44. I think it might have been at 45, or the little jar of water I use for the probe was at 45. I put the wort in around 70 and let it cool overnight, so it should have been at equilibrium. Yes, I oxygenated when I put it in. I use a sanitized stainless mesh strainer on clear beers, not just to catch sediment and debris from hops and such but also to aerate the wort.

I removed the lid to check. My thought was that if there was fermentation happening, the CO2 would prevent further oxygenation, and if there wasn't I had to pitch more yeast anyway. I mean the airlock was doing nothing, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing was going on underneath.

A small batch. Assuming you know the yeast is fresh.

It's not like the Constitution requires that we brew five gallons at a time.

Huh. I thought for sure it was a five gallon minimum.

 

[sibelman]

Making a starter is a minor annoyance at worst. If you want a particular yeast and it's only available as liquid and you're making a lager or high gravity ale, make a starter!

 

[sibelman]

prevent further oxygenation,

This is not a thing. However, probably not important in this instance.

 

[Deadalus]

I pitched at around 44 or so, as that seemed to be the consensus. I had put the fermentation bucket in the controlled freezer for this purpose with a setpoint at 44. I think it might have been at 45, or the little jar of water I use for the probe was at 45. I put the wort in around 70 and let it cool overnight, so it should have been at equilibrium. Yes, I oxygenated when I put it in. I use a sanitized stainless mesh strainer on clear beers, not just to catch sediment and debris from hops and such but also to aerate the wort.

I removed the lid to check. My thought was that if there was fermentation happening, the CO2 would prevent further oxygenation, and if there wasn't I had to pitch more yeast anyway. I mean the airlock was doing nothing, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing was going on underneath.

Huh. I thought for sure it was a five gallon minimum.

50-55F is the recommended fermentation temperature for WLP830. Anything under 50F I have found is a bit cold and slow for the lager yeasts I use, which are all White Labs. I used to use mid to high 40s but then started checking the lab's guidelines. It would take about 2 days or so at the lower temps, especially if not using 2 packs or 4l.

I also used to use a strainer and thought similarly but it's not the same as using O2.

 

[FS7]

This is not a thing. However, probably not important in this instance.

Any particular reason why? I thought you wanted oxygen in the wort, not on it. Oxygen in the headspace (which is there initially, before being pressed out by CO2 from fermentation) would allow for a growth environment for aerobic bacteria. CO2 being heavier than O2, you would need to manually move a lot of air to introduce more, but it would be a lot easier to mix fresh air from outside the fermenter with what was in the headspace which would potentially introduce more oxygen for aerobic bacteria. I actually am only speculating and this may be completely unnecessary.

 

[DuncB]

From reading your opening @FS7
You mentioned 80 pints, so around 38 litres.
I'm not sure that two packets of dry yeast cold fermented would be enough for that batch.
Yeast starter and saving will be much better and cheaper in short and long term.
Look at shaken not stirred starter making.

 

[FS7]

From reading your opening @FS7
You mentioned 80 pints, so around 38 litres.
I'm not sure that two packets of dry yeast cold fermented would be enough for that batch.
Yeast starter and saving will be much better and cheaper in short and long term.
Look at shaken not stirred starter making.

You're right - it's 40 pints, so half that. I screwed up the math there.

 

[mac_1103]

CO2 being heavier than O2, you would need to manually move a lot of air to introduce more

This is the part that's not a thing. Gasses mix very quickly. There's no blanket of CO2 that keeps air out of the headspace once you open the fermenter. So if you do open the fermenter, you have basically turned the headspace back into air.

 

[FS7]

This is the part that's not a thing. Gasses mix very quickly. There's no blanket of CO2 that keeps air out of the headspace once you open the fermenter. So if you do open the fermenter, you have basically turned the headspace back into air.

I guess it depends on the level of air movement and how different they are. I mean there are temperature gradients in a room, with or without air movement. That's what a fan does, but how much faster it makes it I don't know.

I was basing this mostly on the fact that when I ferment in a confined space (like the lagers in the controlled freezer) sticking my head inside, even open, would result in breathing 100% CO2. It will be interesting to try in a week and see how much it changes when I first open it as compared to something like 30 minutes later. That's obviously not scientific but it might tell me something.

 

[mac_1103]

I guess it depends on the level of air movement and how different they are.

No, it really doesn't.

 

[sibelman]

100%

No. Gases mix fast though not instantaneously.

btw, oxygen (in and above wort) is good until fermentation starts. Then bad.

Also btw, you won't be able to inhale even a modest amount of CO2 - your throat will lock up.

 

[FS7]

No. Gases mix fast though not instantaneously.

btw, oxygen (in and above wort) is good until fermentation starts. Then bad.

Also btw, you won't be able to inhale even a modest amount of CO2 - your throat will lock up.

I noticed that. You try to breathe, and it's like sucking through a closed straw.

Today I learned a much more in-depth definition of the word "miscible" as it applies to gases. It apparently does matter how different they are, from a molecular mixing perspective and a forced movement perspective. This is why propane will "settle" in a home, but will mix from the surface to the upper atmosphere. Similarly, some gases are dense enough to collect in the lower levels of mines, creating a toxic environment. Hence the need for physical ventilation in a lot of these cases, as truly miscible gases do not "unmix" after being mixed. It seems like the gases that do this are *very* different, much more so than CO2 and breathable air. I never took fluid dynamics, and while it sounds fascinating I'm more than happy to keep it that way.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

For me, the most important aspect of brewing is fermentation and I try to focus on pitching yeast that is as healthy and vibrant as possible. No yeast you buy is fresh, but you can easily sort that out with a starter. If you go to the trouble of brewing beer, it's a minor addition. Dry yeast is really convenient and I use it sometimes, but the drying process is not kind to the yeast, which is one reason why people buy liquid and make starters. Another is increased choice.

 

[Dland]

In reply to original question; With dry yeast you are missing out on paying more for a more perishable and less user friendly product. Dry yeasts are great in most cases, easy to use, easy to store. There are decent strains for most beer varieties.

It is true that not all strains are available dry, and some of the liquid strains are probably some brewers' favorites. But it is a subjective thing, just like choice of malt and hop varieties. Excellent beers are made with dry yeasts all the time.

There are brewers who find culturing yeasts and making starters a key part of brewing process, perhaps it is the most enjoyable aspect of brewing to them. However, the assertion that dry yeast are somehow week and inferior is disproved every time someone dry pitches a pack of Fermentis or similar product, and has a vigorous fermentation going the next morning. My success rate with liquid yeasts, starter included, is about 50/50. Dry yeasts have never failed me. I will admit that all my supplies must be shipped to me, so perhaps I don't get the freshest snap packs.

These days I only pitch dry about once in every 6 or 8 brews, and run fairly consistent fermentations on successive yeast cakes. All based on a dry yeast pack or two for original pitch. 10 gallon batches, 1 pack for ale, 2 packs for lagers.

This is not to knock saccromycology (or whatever) as a genuine field of interest to brewers, but delving into yeast culture is not necessary to make great lagers, ales and kolshs. [;

 

[bwible]

Now think about those who aren’t brewing 5 gallon batches. I typically brew 3 gallons at a time because I don’t go through it quickly. $15 just for yeast for 3 gallons of beer if I only use it once.

I’ve always been a Wyeast guy. We say about $15 because its about $10 or $11 plus shipping and possibly extra cost for a frozen pack as so many of us don’t have a local shop anymore. 3 gallons is about (30) 12 oz bottles. So yeast alone would cost .50 per bottle if I only got one use out of the yeast.

When I started brewing in the 1990s dry yeast wasn’t reliable or of good quality. It was usually something like a small, unmarked white packet that was tucked under the lid of a can of extract. Every book and experienced homebrewer at the time said throw it away and don’t use it. Dry yeast has made great advances since those days.

To me, the allure of the liquid yeast was always to be able to brew with the same yeast that “real” commercial breweries used. What? You mean I can actually get Sierra Nevada’s yeast? Or Fuller’s? Or Whitbread? Wyeast especially used to have names to tell you. “Rocky Mountain lager yeast”. Gee, I wonder where that could be from. Or “Canadian/Belgian Ale yeast” hmmmmm

Yes, I typically make a starter. Both companies started this “pitchable format” idea 20 years ago or so. I ran a homebrew shop from 2000-2004 and have watched the changes. They went from small smack packs and test tubes to shampoo tubes to large format smack packs and envelopes. Since that all first started there was always debate whether they were really pitchable.

Most of us make starters. And as I brew 3 gallons at a time I just about never use a yeast once. Sometimes I do 5 or 6 batches off the same pack. I plan the beers in advance that can use the same yeast and brew the same way judges judge - light to dark, weak to strong. You can even split a liquid yeast into 2 starters and have 2 going at the same time.

 

[bwible]

The problem I see is the introduction of the $15 price point from White Labs. Other yeast companies do not charge that much. Even earlier versions of White Labs cost $7.95 It is too expensive imho.

Now, on to what you might have learned from this experience:
1) Yeast requires some knowledge and research to have a successful outcome
2) Sadly, do not trust what the yeast companies say.
3) Dry yeast is more convenient if you want less of #1
4) Lagers require at least double the amount of yeast than an ale requires. (for a successful outcome)

I would argue that liquid yeast can be the most complicated/difficult part of homebrewing until you learn how to work with it. It is worth the effort imho, but there is still some effort. So do not be a victim. Learn more about what you are brewing and take the steps to win. For some that is buying two pack of dry yeast and calling it a day. Either way, yeast is the most important part of the process imho.

5) higher starting gravity also requires more yeast.

This is another case for reusing yeast. Say you want to brew an Imperial Stout. Instead of buying 2 packs of yeast, brew a dry stout first, then brew your imperial stout and pitch it on the yeast left from the dry stout. Now you got 2 beers and more value out of your yeast.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes but do you want a dry stout and an imperial stout on tap at the same time?