Liquid yeast - am I missing something?

[mac_1103]

CO2 being heavier than O2, you would need to manually move a lot of air to introduce more

This is the part that's not a thing. Gasses mix very quickly. There's no blanket of CO2 that keeps air out of the headspace once you open the fermenter. So if you do open the fermenter, you have basically turned the headspace back into air.

 

[FS7]

This is the part that's not a thing. Gasses mix very quickly. There's no blanket of CO2 that keeps air out of the headspace once you open the fermenter. So if you do open the fermenter, you have basically turned the headspace back into air.

I guess it depends on the level of air movement and how different they are. I mean there are temperature gradients in a room, with or without air movement. That's what a fan does, but how much faster it makes it I don't know.

I was basing this mostly on the fact that when I ferment in a confined space (like the lagers in the controlled freezer) sticking my head inside, even open, would result in breathing 100% CO2. It will be interesting to try in a week and see how much it changes when I first open it as compared to something like 30 minutes later. That's obviously not scientific but it might tell me something.

 

[mac_1103]

I guess it depends on the level of air movement and how different they are.

No, it really doesn't.

 

[sibelman]

100%

No. Gases mix fast though not instantaneously.

btw, oxygen (in and above wort) is good until fermentation starts. Then bad.

Also btw, you won't be able to inhale even a modest amount of CO2 - your throat will lock up.

 

[FS7]

No. Gases mix fast though not instantaneously.

btw, oxygen (in and above wort) is good until fermentation starts. Then bad.

Also btw, you won't be able to inhale even a modest amount of CO2 - your throat will lock up.

I noticed that. You try to breathe, and it's like sucking through a closed straw.

Today I learned a much more in-depth definition of the word "miscible" as it applies to gases. It apparently does matter how different they are, from a molecular mixing perspective and a forced movement perspective. This is why propane will "settle" in a home, but will mix from the surface to the upper atmosphere. Similarly, some gases are dense enough to collect in the lower levels of mines, creating a toxic environment. Hence the need for physical ventilation in a lot of these cases, as truly miscible gases do not "unmix" after being mixed. It seems like the gases that do this are *very* different, much more so than CO2 and breathable air. I never took fluid dynamics, and while it sounds fascinating I'm more than happy to keep it that way.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

For me, the most important aspect of brewing is fermentation and I try to focus on pitching yeast that is as healthy and vibrant as possible. No yeast you buy is fresh, but you can easily sort that out with a starter. If you go to the trouble of brewing beer, it's a minor addition. Dry yeast is really convenient and I use it sometimes, but the drying process is not kind to the yeast, which is one reason why people buy liquid and make starters. Another is increased choice.

 

[Dland]

In reply to original question; With dry yeast you are missing out on paying more for a more perishable and less user friendly product. Dry yeasts are great in most cases, easy to use, easy to store. There are decent strains for most beer varieties.

It is true that not all strains are available dry, and some of the liquid strains are probably some brewers' favorites. But it is a subjective thing, just like choice of malt and hop varieties. Excellent beers are made with dry yeasts all the time.

There are brewers who find culturing yeasts and making starters a key part of brewing process, perhaps it is the most enjoyable aspect of brewing to them. However, the assertion that dry yeast are somehow week and inferior is disproved every time someone dry pitches a pack of Fermentis or similar product, and has a vigorous fermentation going the next morning. My success rate with liquid yeasts, starter included, is about 50/50. Dry yeasts have never failed me. I will admit that all my supplies must be shipped to me, so perhaps I don't get the freshest snap packs.

These days I only pitch dry about once in every 6 or 8 brews, and run fairly consistent fermentations on successive yeast cakes. All based on a dry yeast pack or two for original pitch. 10 gallon batches, 1 pack for ale, 2 packs for lagers.

This is not to knock saccromycology (or whatever) as a genuine field of interest to brewers, but delving into yeast culture is not necessary to make great lagers, ales and kolshs. [;

 

[bwible]

Now think about those who aren’t brewing 5 gallon batches. I typically brew 3 gallons at a time because I don’t go through it quickly. $15 just for yeast for 3 gallons of beer if I only use it once.

I’ve always been a Wyeast guy. We say about $15 because its about $10 or $11 plus shipping and possibly extra cost for a frozen pack as so many of us don’t have a local shop anymore. 3 gallons is about (30) 12 oz bottles. So yeast alone would cost .50 per bottle if I only got one use out of the yeast.

When I started brewing in the 1990s dry yeast wasn’t reliable or of good quality. It was usually something like a small, unmarked white packet that was tucked under the lid of a can of extract. Every book and experienced homebrewer at the time said throw it away and don’t use it. Dry yeast has made great advances since those days.

To me, the allure of the liquid yeast was always to be able to brew with the same yeast that “real” commercial breweries used. What? You mean I can actually get Sierra Nevada’s yeast? Or Fuller’s? Or Whitbread? Wyeast especially used to have names to tell you. “Rocky Mountain lager yeast”. Gee, I wonder where that could be from. Or “Canadian/Belgian Ale yeast” hmmmmm

Yes, I typically make a starter. Both companies started this “pitchable format” idea 20 years ago or so. I ran a homebrew shop from 2000-2004 and have watched the changes. They went from small smack packs and test tubes to shampoo tubes to large format smack packs and envelopes. Since that all first started there was always debate whether they were really pitchable.

Most of us make starters. And as I brew 3 gallons at a time I just about never use a yeast once. Sometimes I do 5 or 6 batches off the same pack. I plan the beers in advance that can use the same yeast and brew the same way judges judge - light to dark, weak to strong. You can even split a liquid yeast into 2 starters and have 2 going at the same time.

 

[bwible]

The problem I see is the introduction of the $15 price point from White Labs. Other yeast companies do not charge that much. Even earlier versions of White Labs cost $7.95 It is too expensive imho.

Now, on to what you might have learned from this experience:
1) Yeast requires some knowledge and research to have a successful outcome
2) Sadly, do not trust what the yeast companies say.
3) Dry yeast is more convenient if you want less of #1
4) Lagers require at least double the amount of yeast than an ale requires. (for a successful outcome)

I would argue that liquid yeast can be the most complicated/difficult part of homebrewing until you learn how to work with it. It is worth the effort imho, but there is still some effort. So do not be a victim. Learn more about what you are brewing and take the steps to win. For some that is buying two pack of dry yeast and calling it a day. Either way, yeast is the most important part of the process imho.

5) higher starting gravity also requires more yeast.

This is another case for reusing yeast. Say you want to brew an Imperial Stout. Instead of buying 2 packs of yeast, brew a dry stout first, then brew your imperial stout and pitch it on the yeast left from the dry stout. Now you got 2 beers and more value out of your yeast.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes but do you want a dry stout and an imperial stout on tap at the same time?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Yes but do you want a dry stout and an imperial stout on tap at the same time?

Maybe not, but in bottles absolutely. Or the dry stout on tap and the imperial in bottles.

Yesterday I drank a 2024 dry stout while cooking. A 2021 imperial for dessert. The 2021 dry stout is but a fond memory.

 

[bwible]

Yes but do you want a dry stout and an imperial stout on tap at the same time?

To me they’re different beers and I also bottle, especially the stronger stuff. I would bottle the imperial and not tie up a tap with a 9 or 10%er thats not an all the time drinker.

Then if its me, I’m going to sit that imperial on bourbon soaked oak cubes for awhile so that one is going to take longer.

Its all variable and seasonal and whatever you want to do,

 

[mac_1103]

But you're going to age the imperial for at least a year, right?

 

[sibelman]

Also, the first ("starter") brew need not be a stout. And, if beer 1 is pale, the second beer could be anything consistent with the yeast choice.

 

[balrog]

Yes but do you want a dry stout and an imperial stout on tap at the same time?

Well, DUH!
I mean, along with a Bonde, an APA, a Marzen, a Kolsch, and English pub ale, and maybe a Piwo Grodziskie.

 

[bwible]

Also, the first ("starter") brew need not be a stout. And, if beer 1 is pale, the second beer could be anything consistent with the yeast choice.

It could really be anything. Maybe an Irish Red even. I just don’t want character from the first beer to carry over to the second. Like I wouldn’t do an IPA with all that hop and late hop as the first beer. Unless you’re going to wash the yeast and I’ve never done that.

Wyeast has nice style information on their site listed under each strain all the styles they recommend for each one

 

[sibelman]

all that hop and late hop

Yes, pitching on top of the yeast cake from the first brew works best, I suppose, if the non-yeast residue is either minimal or consistent with the new, possibly really strong second brew. Not really a great idea if there's dry hops in the fermenter, for example, or if the first brew was dark and the second wants to be super pale. However, it seems like a reasonably small amount of leftovers wouldn't strongly carry over. As with many homebrewing things, one can be too worried or not worried enough. And, of course, OP plans an imperial stout -- so a bit of leftover hops or whatnot would likely be undetectable even to a refined palate.

 

[Cornelder]

Interesting to see this topic because I pitched 2 packets of WLP860 and got nothing happening about a week ago. Technical info - 1.051 SG, 5.17pH, 5.2 gallons, 48F temp. Oxygenated using a wand and pure O2 for 1.5 minutes at 0.75 lpm. I waited 5 days before giving up and pitched 2 packets of W34/70. I had checked gravity again and confirmed it was still the same before pitching. anyway, 12 hours later I started getting some activity and now have a good Krausen going 2 days after pitching the 34/70.

I’ve only used White Labs once before but never will again. Viability from the lot number said it should be at 92%. WL blamed the LHBS. I’ve never had any issue with any yeast before. I use liquid for ales and dry for lagers generally. Never again using WL. Too expensive, not reliable, poor customer service response to an issue.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing. Totally lame on WL's part. Those packs must have been mishandled before the LHBS.

On a side note, can you talk about the application of O2 for 1.5 minutes at .75 LPM? Do you have the ability to do a slower flow rate?

 

[Cornelder]

Thanks for sharing. Totally lame on WL's part. Those packs must have been mishandled before the LHBS.

On a side note, can you talk about the application of O2 for 1.5 minutes at .75 LPM? Do you have the ability to do a slower flow rate?

I use the Blichmann oxygen flow regulator, so whatever it can do I could adjust to, although the 1 LPM stopped flowing some time ago.

 

[Bassman2003]

I was just going to point out that at .75LPM, a lot of oxygen gets wasted by going into foam and back in to the atmosphere. By choosing a slower flow rate and longer time, the O2 has a better chance of staying in the solution.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Do people still buy WL yeast at these prices and, if so, why? I do brews that cost less in total than the price of a WL pack. I realise that people have different resources and different priorities, but there are cheaper, better options, no?

 

[balrog]

Do people still buy WL yeast at these prices and, if so, why? I do brews that cost less in total than the price of a WL pack. I realise that people have different resources and different priorities, but there are cheaper, better options, no?

While I've used White Labs in the past, I generally have settled on WYeast's offerings, but no other reason than historical momentum on my part. But I will say that I have *ALWAYS* made a starter of one sort or another, and have not experienced lag times of anything like 72 hours.

 

[Deadalus]

Do people still buy WL yeast at these prices and, if so, why? I do brews that cost less in total than the price of a WL pack. I realise that people have different resources and different priorities, but there are cheaper, better options, no?

I did a conservative cost analysis back in post #21. Even simpler than that is to consider a dry pack vs. liquid. Consider 34/70 is $8 and the WLP is $16 at Morebeer. So $8 difference. If I use either four times that's just $2 more a batch. I'm not at all happy with the price increase for White Labs, so I will be more careful about storing yeast and I am considering banking them in full on slants. Also, I will be checking for the strains that are well known to be the same from other companies.

 

[Deadalus]

Interesting to see this topic because I pitched 2 packets of WLP860 and got nothing happening about a week ago. Technical info - 1.051 SG, 5.17pH, 5.2 gallons, 48F temp. Oxygenated using a wand and pure O2 for 1.5 minutes at 0.75 lpm. I waited 5 days before giving up and pitched 2 packets of W34/70. I had checked gravity again and confirmed it was still the same before pitching. anyway, 12 hours later I started getting some activity and now have a good Krausen going 2 days after pitching the 34/70.

I’ve only used White Labs once before but never will again. Viability from the lot number said it should be at 92%. WL blamed the LHBS. I’ve never had any issue with any yeast before. I use liquid for ales and dry for lagers generally. Never again using WL. Too expensive, not reliable, poor customer service response to an issue.

I used that yeast before, from what I recall it was good in the Helles I brewed it for. It was more of a speciality yeast I think is why I didn't use it again or I didn't have a chance to order it. I have had some temp controller issues to where the fridge was off, which cast a lot of doubt on my banked bottles. Not sure, I used a bock yeast and then WLP835 in the next iterations. Your packs were probably dead or very low viability. You could have seen that with a starter. You were at the bottom of the range for that yeast but I would have expected activity at 5 days.

I counted up my recipes and I have brewed 82 batches in not quite 6 years and they have all been with liquid yeast. That's Phase II of my brewing career. In Phase I of my brewing journey, starting a few years before the turn of the century and into the early aughts, I also excusively used liquid yeast quite soon after starting to homebrew. While I sometimes use Wyeast or other companies, I'd say about 85-90% of the time in Phase II, I've used White Labs. I've never pitched dry yeast in Phase II. I've had a couple of instances where the yeast may have been dead, as many times I have had it shipped. Sometimes it's unavoidable in the summer. A time or two I have had to scramble and get a second pack. I don't much care about the dates either unless the yeast is about 1.5-2 years old. I just make a starter almost every time. If it's really old, I may step it up using a weaker wort first.

I've been temperature controlling my lagers since Phase I. I had a recollection earlier today as to another reason I used to brew my lagers at below 50 and it was because they were in my keezer. I keep the temp at 44 not like 40 and below as some other people do. I was reluctant to warm it up past that but I would go up to 48F when when fermenting lagers but I didn't want to go much further than that if I could help it. Some time in the beginning of Phase II I realized that the yeasts had specific temperature ranges so I started working within those. I used to expect more slow activity in the past but now I don't usually see that unless I do something out of the ordinary, like rush the starter before it's ready. Plus I use a separate ferm chamber and I don't worry about the serving temperature, so I just go ahead and adjust temperature as desired. About 3/4 of the year, the temp in the basement is under ale fermenting temp so I use a heating mat and in the summer I use the ferm fridge. Fermentation is temperature controlled. I've done it with my yeast several times as my basement is cooler but a lot of the time I haven't. It's not optimal to be cooler but I need to get a bucket or box to keep the starter insulated in. The heating pad is also awkward on the ehrlenmeyer flask as is the temp probe.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I did a conservative cost analysis back in post #21. Even simpler than that is to consider a dry pack vs. liquid. Consider 34/70 is $8 and the WLP is $16 at Morebeer. So $8 difference. If I use either four times that's just $2 more a batch. I'm not at all happy with the price increase for White Labs, so I will be more careful about storing yeast and I am considering banking them in full on slants. Also, I will be checking for the strains that are well known to be the same from other companies.

I guess a key factor is the choice available to us. Here in the UK we get White Labs and Wyeast, and one or two online places do Imperial. But they've flown the Atlantic and need a starter every time. Which is good practice anyway. I culture up some yeasts from local brewery beers, and from swapped home brew. I'm not the lab tech type but I store harvested yeast and make starters and really don't spend much on yeast. Last time I looked WL were about £13.50 and Wyeast £10. I couldn't buy liquid yeast every brew, out of my price range. Learning to handle yeast is just an important aspect of brewing, maybe the most important, for making quality beer. So embrace it, I say!

 

[DuncB]

Yes but do you want a dry stout and an imperial stout on tap at the same time?

I don't get through kegs of stout that quickly. Plenty of time for an imperial stout to start maturing though.

 

[DuncB]

Think of a yeast starter as a microbatch of oxidised beer and it won't be so scary, just more brewing.

 

[Deadalus]

I went and looked at my old recipe sheets and I was also using White Labs yeast back in Phase I.

@duncan_disorderly White Labs has a Copenhagen production facility. Don't know much about it other than it was established in 2014. I'd still do the starter!

 

[madscientist451]

I usually brew a bunch of lagers this time of year for summer drinking and always start off with a smaller, 1.5 to 2 gallon batch. Then the whole yeast slurry goes into a 5 gallon batch. Then I pitch half into the next batch and save the rest for making starters. After 6-7 runs, I have enough lagers, so I’m done.