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How do you see what an end date is? Or is there one for these "auctions"? Just curious.
Lambic Discussion Thread
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Tlo4sho
Well-Known Member
Was thrilled to try this treat yesterday with BrandoSF and crew.
Bottle still had the foil on it; no bottling date I could find. Cork was 2002. Cap came off with the often typical black grim. Cork was thoughtfully coaxed out without incident. Big bright cherry nose, smelled like a fresh batch almost. Good carb, nicely tart, incredible cherry flavor. Figured it would be incredibly sour but it was very elegant. Flavor was as if you were biting into a freshly ripened tart cherry. Much more fruit forward with little funk, which was surprising. I figured a 17 yo lambic would have lots of funk but the fruit was so brilliant maybe it drowned it out? I don’t have much experience with fruited stuff of this age. I was floored with how well this was.
Bottle still had the foil on it; no bottling date I could find. Cork was 2002. Cap came off with the often typical black grim. Cork was thoughtfully coaxed out without incident. Big bright cherry nose, smelled like a fresh batch almost. Good carb, nicely tart, incredible cherry flavor. Figured it would be incredibly sour but it was very elegant. Flavor was as if you were biting into a freshly ripened tart cherry. Much more fruit forward with little funk, which was surprising. I figured a 17 yo lambic would have lots of funk but the fruit was so brilliant maybe it drowned it out? I don’t have much experience with fruited stuff of this age. I was floored with how well this was.
SeaWatchman
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Was thrilled to try this treat yesterday with BrandoSF and crew.
Bottle still had the foil on it; no bottling date I could find. Cork was 2002. Cap came off with the often typical black grim. Cork was thoughtfully coaxed out without incident. Big bright cherry nose, smelled like a fresh batch almost. Good carb, nicely tart, incredible cherry flavor. Figured it would be incredibly sour but it was very elegant. Flavor was as if you were biting into a freshly ripened tart cherry. Much more fruit forward with little funk, which was surprising. I figured a 17 yo lambic would have lots of funk but the fruit was so brilliant maybe it drowned it out? I don’t have much experience with fruited stuff of this age. I was floored with how well this was.
Old LPK seems to be an exception to the drink fruit lambic a fresh rule. Jean has said to wait two years or so last bottling for this one and he’s got a bunch of it tucked away in all sixes up to at least magnum from the 2013 sticker (2015 bottling). Pretty sure he’s mentioned 3L bottles of it though too. He opened another magnum this past December when I was there and it still tasted really really young.
bostonvert
Well-Known Member
There is no end date, its pretty much the Belgian craigslist. You can PM the seller and work something out
1957-1962 Goossen's lambic. I got lucky with this bottle because it tasted great. Very musty, slightly acetic/vinegary but mostly very bright green apple and citrus flavor. Finish was really dry and wine-like. Overall really enjoyable.
Gaseous Clay
Well-Known Member
I recall seeing photos of 3L LPK stashed away in the bunker.
![Craft A Brew - Safale S-04 Dry Yeast - Fermentis - English Ale Dry Yeast - For English and American Ales and Hard Apple Ciders - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [1 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41fVGNh6JfL._SL500_.jpg)
Saind
Well-Known Member
How was the cork?1957-1962 Goossen's lambic. I got lucky with this bottle because it tasted great. Very musty, slightly acetic/vinegary but mostly very bright green apple and citrus flavor. Finish was really dry and wine-like. Overall really enjoyable.
Dbijnagte
Well-Known Member
Cantillon 3pack up on BIAB. 60€ for a 750 of each RdG, Kriek, Bio. Too rich for my blood.
Cork was in solid shape, came out in a single piece with little effort.
davey101
Well-Known Member
Anyone know how to date a Mort Subite OG? Has a best by date on the back, looks like it may be 3-4 years out?
bringing it flowers is a good start
Shrimp Store
Well-Known Member
Really cool article on Raf at Bokkereyder
https://www.beeradvocate.com/articl...ew-stirrings-in-the-old-world-of-lambic-beer/
https://www.beeradvocate.com/articl...ew-stirrings-in-the-old-world-of-lambic-beer/
mateoloco
Well-Known Member
Don't bother giving those ***** any more clicks. Here's the article:
A Nanoblendery Grows in Belgium: New Stirrings in the Old World of Lambic Beer
Feature by Gail Ann Williams & Steve Shapiro
Just before a lavish rare beer charity auction in Portland, Ore., Jessica Elkan, director of development for New Avenues for Youth, a nonprofit committed to preventing youth homelessness, learned that a surprise visitor was coming. And he had a last minute donation. “Raf bought a hard suitcase and filled it with as many bottles as he could fit,” she says. He flew in standby from Belgium, escorting 10 3-liter jeroboams of his assorted Bokkereyder Lambic creations. Auctioned off separately, the winning bids for his coveted cargo added up to $21,000. Among hundreds of donated rare beers, those 10 bottles from a young operation few have even heard of accounted for nearly 10 percent of the annual auction’s revenue.
Raf Souvereyns lives near the picturesque city of Hasselt, Belgium. East of Brussels in the province of Limburg, it’s well beyond the Zenne River Valley, the traditional heart of Lambic brewing. He calls his young blendery Bokkereyder, a Flemish word that means one who rides a billy goat. It’s a nod to folklore in his father’s hometown that evokes themes of rebellion, or perhaps dark magic. There’s no Bokkereyder taproom to visit, no marketing to speak of, no online T-shirt emporium, only a small private barrel warehouse in a region best known for orchards and vineyards.
His journey to beer is a familiar tale with an Old World twist. Souvereyns first took an interest in touring little-known local wineries. “Belgian wine is not a thing in the world,” he says with a laugh. But he has a strong affection for these winemakers, practicing their craft in obscurity a few hours drive from renowned German and French wine regions. Without plans to make it a career, he helped as an “apprentice” to better understand winemaking.
Next, he ventured further afield in search of artisan products, exploring the classic Lambic beers of the Payottenland region. To some Belgians, these sour beers are relics, the beer of rural grandparents and international tourists. Souvereyns, however, didn’t hesitate to explore and embrace the funky delicacies produced via spontaneous fermentations by airborne microbes. Then he learned it was possible to make these beers not by homebrewing them, but by purchasing authentic young Lambics to blend at home.
Souvereyns was mentored by a fellow amateur blender—quite improbably a German who lives outside Dusseldorf, a large city about two hours East of the Payottenland by car. “Uli is my source of inspiration. It’s all his fault,” says Souvereyns, adding that while their processes differ, he and Uli Kremer have become close friends and allies.
Kremer, a self-taught blender who honed his skills by sharing his experimental concoctions with legendary Lambic producers, is currently pursuing his own commercial blending projects under his Huisstekerij H.ertie label. He remembers coaching Souvereyns during a visit to one of Belgium’s best-known blenderies. “I gave him a tour of the geuzestekerij Drie Fonteinen and I explained everything about Lambic,” Kremer recalls matter-of-factly. Souvereyns says the two visitors started talking in the simple gift shop that day in 2008. Then, as they sampled the ripening barrels in a tour of the compact cellar, Kremer gave him a crash-course in blending and fermentation fundamentals.
With renewed determination and an obsessive dedication to quality, subsequent batches went much better. And since then, Souvereyns has been creating Lambic-based beers that make even the most ardent traditionalists take notice—if they can get their hands on a bottle.
At one time, Lambic beers were refermented on fruit or bulk-aged for eventual blending into a three-year Gueuze. This took place in Lambic breweries, but also in beer cafes and dedicated blenderies or geuzestekerij. But as demand for the style began to plummet a century ago, most Lambic breweries vanished, along with the bulk of the ecosystem of independent blenders. Much of the sensory knowledge traditionally passed from person to person has also been lost.
Blending isn’t a simple matter of making a mixture to taste, but a strategic calculation of which elements will—or won’t—taste better after refermenting and conditioning. Any new commercial blending operation battles this learning curve. They also must endure many months without any product to sell, resisting the urge to release beers too young, or to blend bad barrels with good ones to recoup costs.
Souvereyns combines three inoculated wort components for all of his beers, relying on relationships with three Lambic producers: Girardin, Lindemans (in Vlezenbeek), and De Troch (in Wambeek). In particular, he believes the De Troch influence is key to his flavor signature. “De Troch is one of those breweries that is so underrated. The Lambic [it] makes is phenomenal but people only relate that brewery to sweetened products,” he laments, referring to quickly-produced fruit beers which subsidize the old brewery’s limited Oude Gueuze production.
Pauwel Raes and his wife Kristel Schelfthout have operated De Troch, the small brewery his family built in the early 1800s, since 2013. And Raes agrees that De Troch fermentations are distinctive. Part of the reason might be that he uses aged New World hop pellets rather than aged whole-cone Noble hops. “We are the only Lambic makers with that much citrus in our Lambic,” he says, adding that he only sells to a few smaller blenders, due to his limited interest in growing his production to make beers for others. He’s also concerned about the age of his equipment. “I don’t want to make 10 or 15 brews more a year for someone else,” Raes explains.
Souvereyns got to know Raes by purchasing small portions of De Troch Lambic. He now buys full batches of inoculated wort out of the brewery’s antiquated, narrow twin coolships. With Bokkereyder’s slow rate of growth, he’s not concerned about outgrowing his suppliers.
Bokkereyder beers range from reverently traditional to boldly inventive. While his Framboos is a classic raspberry Lambic, 2018 will mark the first appearance of a cinnamon raspberry version, which will join an acclaimed lineup including vanilla bean and Cognac barrel-aged Framboos variations. Another series is based on refermented Saison. Without a brewhouse to make a Saison, Souvereyns hooks up his trailer and drives south to buy beer from tiny Brasserie Fantôme in the rural town of Soy. He then adds his three-source Lambic mixture to dry out the Saison and contribute additional complexities.
Chris Lively, proprietor of Ebenezer’s Pub in Lovell, Maine, first tasted Bokkereyder at Yves Panneels’ famous Payottenland Lambic bar, In De Verzekering Tegen De Grote Dorst, currently the only place in Belgium where the beers are sold. He was quickly impressed. As a long-time Lambic expert and aficionado, Lively immediately struck up a conversation with Souvereyns about bringing the beers to Maine. “It’s like going and seeing a great tattoo artist that does portraits, and every single dot of ink that goes into your arm is meant to be there,” he marvels. “That’s not easy to do with Lambic.”
To Be Continued
mateoloco
Well-Known Member
Continued
Bokkereyder beers don’t stay in stock long at Ebenezer’s, well over an hour’s drive northwest of Portland. Nor do they last long at the events where they occasionally make appearances. Currently, Souvereyns distributes exclusively through festivals and a handful of beer bars.
Ebenezer’s is the only such spot in the US. At Mikkeller’s Copenhagen Beer Festival in May 2017, Souvereyns and a coterie of volunteers dispensed roughly 10 percent of his annual production during four half-day sessions, pouring two small-batch blends at a time to a long double line of appreciators. He’d like to have his beers in more places, hinting that he’s in talks with more bars in the States, but his limited production is constrained by the number of barrels with mature beer in them. Over the summer, he increased his total to 120. He was also finally able to invest in a forklift. Working full time, alone except for rare assistance from his mother or a friend, Souvereyns is determined to give his beers as much time as they require.
While most connoisseurs haven’t tasted a beer from Bokkereyder, its very existence is a harbinger of larger changes in Belgium. According to Kristof Verhasselt, 38, a board member of Payottenland’s beer consumer organization, De Lambikstoempers, a new wave of demand for Lambic is on the horizon. Younger drinkers in the region tend to favor Oude Krieks and Oude Gueuzes over the aged flat Lambics. Just south of Brussels, around the town of Beersel, in particular, Verhasselt sees a revival of interest. “They know the tradition and appreciate it, but most of all, they like to drink it,” he observes.
In late August, members of De Lambikstoempers attended the launch of Lambiek Fabriek in Payottenland, a new Lambic brewery founded when sourcing inoculated wort made by others became too costly and inconvenient for a fledgling blending operation started by three friends. According to Verhasselt, the inaugural beer, Brett-Elle, was markedly young but nevertheless exciting. “I’m very glad that there are some new guys in town and that the products they make (Brett-Elle, Belgoo Bikske, and Den Herberg Lambic) are of a good quality,” says Verhasselt.
“Let’s hope this new wind stays, so Lambic making and blending will never die.”
And then there is the growing number of amateurs, purchasing containers of Lambic to age with fresh fruits at home. Verhasselt can name a handful of them—including himself. And he, too, turned to Uli Kremer, the German Lambic fanatic who frequents De Lambikstoempers events, for tips. “I asked him for some advice about my own blending and got the most important advice: to experiment and learn from my mistakes and victories,” Verhasselt says. “That’s how Uli works.”
But for all of its acclaim, Verhasselt hasn’t yet tasted anything from Bokkereyder either, partially due to the price tag the beers carry. Souvereyns is aware that his Lambics exceed the five to 10 euros that’s the accustomed price range for a good 750 milliliter bottle of everyday Oude Gueuze in Belgium. “It’s sometimes hard for people to justify buying bottles of my beer for 45 euros at Yves’ bar,” he sighs. “It’s a very steep price by Belgian standards.”
By way of justification, Souvereyns says that his production costs alone actually exceed the retail prices of other Gueuzes. This is in part due to his insistence on dumping beer that develops in a direction he doesn’t like. His dedication to local fruit pushes his costs even further. “I am one of the only ones using fresh picked Belgian raspberries,” he insists, noting that others buy berries from Serbia. In fact, Souvereyns sets out with his trailer at 5:00 a.m. to go to the farm on harvest mornings, tenderly collecting soft, “slightly overripe” fruit for maximum flavor impact, dumping them into the tank on his trailer, and rushing home by noon to pump Lambic onto the oozing berries.
Meanwhile, another upcoming Bokkereyder project brings Souvereyns closer to the winemaker’s world again, as he ferments local Chardonnay grapes with 10 percent Lambic. Two of the bottles that rocked the annual rare beer auction in Oregon were examples of what Souvereyns calls Lambic wines. He knows of no other producers marrying the secrets of winemaking and Lambic blending. Then, in October, he received a decrepit barrel crusted with the remains of a curiosity known as Macvin du Jura, an obscure fortified Vin Doux Naturel from remote Jura, France near the Swiss border. He chose to fill this artifact with a three-year Gueuze blend.
A successful outcome isn’t guaranteed and the production will be maddeningly small, but the young blender’s keen Lambic shepherding skill makes each creative project something to follow. Patiently.
Bokkereyder beers don’t stay in stock long at Ebenezer’s, well over an hour’s drive northwest of Portland. Nor do they last long at the events where they occasionally make appearances. Currently, Souvereyns distributes exclusively through festivals and a handful of beer bars.
Ebenezer’s is the only such spot in the US. At Mikkeller’s Copenhagen Beer Festival in May 2017, Souvereyns and a coterie of volunteers dispensed roughly 10 percent of his annual production during four half-day sessions, pouring two small-batch blends at a time to a long double line of appreciators. He’d like to have his beers in more places, hinting that he’s in talks with more bars in the States, but his limited production is constrained by the number of barrels with mature beer in them. Over the summer, he increased his total to 120. He was also finally able to invest in a forklift. Working full time, alone except for rare assistance from his mother or a friend, Souvereyns is determined to give his beers as much time as they require.
In late August, members of De Lambikstoempers attended the launch of Lambiek Fabriek in Payottenland, a new Lambic brewery founded when sourcing inoculated wort made by others became too costly and inconvenient for a fledgling blending operation started by three friends. According to Verhasselt, the inaugural beer, Brett-Elle, was markedly young but nevertheless exciting. “I’m very glad that there are some new guys in town and that the products they make (Brett-Elle, Belgoo Bikske, and Den Herberg Lambic) are of a good quality,” says Verhasselt.
“Let’s hope this new wind stays, so Lambic making and blending will never die.”
And then there is the growing number of amateurs, purchasing containers of Lambic to age with fresh fruits at home. Verhasselt can name a handful of them—including himself. And he, too, turned to Uli Kremer, the German Lambic fanatic who frequents De Lambikstoempers events, for tips. “I asked him for some advice about my own blending and got the most important advice: to experiment and learn from my mistakes and victories,” Verhasselt says. “That’s how Uli works.”
But for all of its acclaim, Verhasselt hasn’t yet tasted anything from Bokkereyder either, partially due to the price tag the beers carry. Souvereyns is aware that his Lambics exceed the five to 10 euros that’s the accustomed price range for a good 750 milliliter bottle of everyday Oude Gueuze in Belgium. “It’s sometimes hard for people to justify buying bottles of my beer for 45 euros at Yves’ bar,” he sighs. “It’s a very steep price by Belgian standards.”
By way of justification, Souvereyns says that his production costs alone actually exceed the retail prices of other Gueuzes. This is in part due to his insistence on dumping beer that develops in a direction he doesn’t like. His dedication to local fruit pushes his costs even further. “I am one of the only ones using fresh picked Belgian raspberries,” he insists, noting that others buy berries from Serbia. In fact, Souvereyns sets out with his trailer at 5:00 a.m. to go to the farm on harvest mornings, tenderly collecting soft, “slightly overripe” fruit for maximum flavor impact, dumping them into the tank on his trailer, and rushing home by noon to pump Lambic onto the oozing berries.
Meanwhile, another upcoming Bokkereyder project brings Souvereyns closer to the winemaker’s world again, as he ferments local Chardonnay grapes with 10 percent Lambic. Two of the bottles that rocked the annual rare beer auction in Oregon were examples of what Souvereyns calls Lambic wines. He knows of no other producers marrying the secrets of winemaking and Lambic blending. Then, in October, he received a decrepit barrel crusted with the remains of a curiosity known as Macvin du Jura, an obscure fortified Vin Doux Naturel from remote Jura, France near the Swiss border. He chose to fill this artifact with a three-year Gueuze blend.
A successful outcome isn’t guaranteed and the production will be maddeningly small, but the young blender’s keen Lambic shepherding skill makes each creative project something to follow. Patiently.
Digita7693
Well-Known Member
Granted, if you’re opening the story about a non-profits charity beer fest shouldn’t you probably say the name of the festival? Should also get your facts right about the number of 3L bottles.
However, overall, I agree it is a good article
Perhaps it’s because my local gueze availability has gone down the crapper the past few years but Boon Black Label is one of the best values in lambic I’ve found in a long time.
It’s a drier and slightly funkier version of Boon and I really dig it.
It’s a drier and slightly funkier version of Boon and I really dig it.
quirk6
Well-Known Member
15.99 for a 750 here. Best value on the shelf, as far as I'm concerned. Great stuff.
I had a Black Label No.3 last night and was not impressed. Had this nickelly taste that I couldn't get past that's usually balanced out by acidity/funk in the older Mariage Parfaits. The first black label I had, believe it was the second edition, was on fire though, pure acidity.
Gatosandbeer
Member
Seems like this thread is a jump in and read backwards thing. So anyone know about 2017 St Lamvinus being in a slightly darker bottle compared to 15 & 16. Looking at a vert and got a little confused. If so, does anyone know why the darker bottle?
LukeAleTime
Well-Known Member
If you're worried about consistency in lambic packaging then you're gonna have a bad time...
Gatosandbeer
Member
Less worried about it and more of an interested in, figured it was something scientific, but maybe not.
wuntrikpony
Well-Known Member
As the world becomes darker and more depressing, your lambic should appear brighter over time.
primebeer
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Has '17 Lam even been released yet?
Gatosandbeer
Member
Gaseous Clay
Well-Known Member
Likely comes down to what bottles are available/on-hand when they decide to bottle something.
SeaWatchman
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It’s just whatever is available at the time of bottling. Sometimes the same bottling dates have several shade of bottles.
Gatosandbeer
Member
Are you saying it's 50 shades of lambic?
capnmike
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wuntrikpony
Well-Known Member
These misogynistic brewery labels are getting out of hand amirite?
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