Lager Yeast Long Lag-TIme

[Nil]

Hi All,

I prepared my first lager (all-grain, 5 gal)) this last Sunday. I pitched the wort with one (1) Pack Bavarian Lager from Wyeast 2206. I placed the carboy in a temperature controlled freezer (50C +/- 1C). Pitching temperature: 54C.

As today (4-8-14) there is no activity (bubbling). Maybe the reason is that the fermentation is at very low temperature and this may increases the lag time. I observed the same pattern with ale yeast at 65F: the lag time is approx. 24-36 hours.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Nil

 

[CadillacAndy]

Did the smack pack inflate? What was the date on the pack? Did you make a starter? Without a starter you probably pitched about half or a quarter of the viable yeast you should have if you pitched just 1 pack without making a starter. Most lagers that I brew require at least a 2 liter starter on a stir plate.

The extended lag time is going to be due to the yeast reproducing. It's just taking them longer at cold temperatures. I'd probably just let it alone for another day or two to see what happens or you could pitch another pack of yeast. You could also try warming it up a couple of degrees. Is there any pressure in the air lock? What happens if you lightly swirl it? Does the airlock bubble?

 

[SeanMcClellan]

FWIW, I just pitched a 1L starter of Wyeast American Lager 2035 a week ago Sunday evening (on 3/31) into temp-controlled freezer at 10C (50F) wort at 1.034 OG. It took 48 hours (Tuesday evening) until I noticed bubbles in the airlock. The bubbles went steady until last night, so I took a reading and found 1.013 (FG predicted at 1.009). So, I bumped the temperature for a diacetyl rest.

To summarize what I'm saying, I think you're probably fine and my guess is you'll see activity today sometime. This is my first lager, though, so YMMV.

 

[Nil]

No starter as the sales person that sold me with the Wyeast pack assured me that he didnt need it. Yes, I broke the sugar pack inside and let it sit for approx 4 hours with no inflation. Instructions says that inflation is not required. Yeast was three (3) month old from manuf date on package.

As today, no pressure in the airlock, and the entire thing is dead. I will wait til this coming Thursday and see. I'll re-pitch with a starter if warranted.

This is my first lager (with my DYI controller ) so I am in the learning process.

Thanks, Nil

 

[Nil]

Let me rephase: The person who sold the Wyeast pack assured me that he never needed a starter.

 

[BigFloyd]

Let me rephase: The person who sold the Wyeast pack assured me that he never needed a starter.

Then he doesn't know jack about lager pitch rates. Lagers need 2X the number of yeast cells vs. ales.

Assuming an OG of 1.050 and 5 gallons in the fermenter, you should have pitched 352 billion cells (basic lager pitch rate of 1.50). That 3-month old smack pack, if properly stored, had only 37 billion cells which is less than 11% of the proper pitch.

What to do now? If you can get two "rescue" packs of 34/70 dry lager yeast, rehydrate and pitch those. That beer needs lots more lager yeast cells working on it than what you currently have and you don't have time to do a starter. Otherwise, you're at risk for off-flavors due to yeast stress and under-attenuation.

 

[masonsjax]

Yeah, what he said. You way underpitched this beer. Lagers need tons of yeast.

 

[osagedr]

I always advise new lager brewers to use dry yeast. Cheap and easy to pitch enough cells. Be sure to rehydrate as per manufacturer's product sheet instructions.

 

[Yooper]

No starter as the sales person that sold me with the Wyeast pack assured me that he didnt need it. Yes, I broke the sugar pack inside and let it sit for approx 4 hours with no inflation. Instructions says that inflation is not required. Yeast was three (3) month old from manuf date on package.

As today, no pressure in the airlock, and the entire thing is dead. I will wait til this coming Thursday and see. I'll re-pitch with a starter if warranted.

This is my first lager (with my DYI controller ) so I am in the learning process.

Thanks, Nil

The yeast was old, and it was pitched into a lager.

Just to see how many packages would have been the correct amount of yeast to pitch, try using the mrmalty.com's pitching calculator. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html Guessing at an OG of 1.050 (you can put the actual OG in the calculator), with a 3-month old yeast and no starter, the optimum pitch rate would have been 10.6 packages!!!!! So, you underpitched by a magnitude of about 10.

With a starter, and fresh yeast, you still would have needed a huge starter (lagers require far more yeast than ales for cold pitching), but it would have been more likely to result in the best lager possible.

 

[Nil]

As today, zippp....

I re-pitched with a new Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Lager.... inflated in less than 3 hours @ 70-75F .I decided not to wait 24 hours as the excess pressure may burst some cells and may produce a rubbery flavor. I re-oxygenated the wort before re-pitching @ approx 55F.

Someone told me the start the wort T = 75F and let it slowly go down to 50F. Any feedback?

The previous yeast was not too old... approx. 2 months from mfg date. Does not matter now...

I'll Z.. I ain't gonna give up...

Later folks. I''ll keep U posted.

Thanks, Nil

 

[Nil]

Was 2 months and not 3 month old, correction...

 

[BigFloyd]

Someone told me the start the wort T = 75F and let it slowly go down to 50F. Any feedback?

Yeah. I wouldn't recommend it unless you want to risk a bunch of unwanted esters in your lager.

It's still going to be slow to get started. At best, you have pitched about 150 billion total yeast cells into a beer that should have gotten over twice that much.

 

[Darwin18]

Someone told me the start the wort T = 75F and let it slowly go down to 50F. Any feedback?

You seem to be getting a lot of bad advice. Some people pitch their lager yeast at 75F and then try to cool it down to fermenting temperatures because they don't pitch enough yeast to see activity. Pitching hot will get the yeast going but it will also result in off-flavors.

For best practice, make a yeast starter!!! Whoever sold you that first smack pack and told you that you didn't need a starter had no clue what they were talking about and did you a real disservice. The "smack pack" is just a way to proof the yeast and it's not a substitute for a real starter.

Making an excellent lager isn't that much more difficult than making an ale if you have good temperature control.

1) Make an appropriate sized starter. Mr. Malty is a good reference.
2) Pitch the starter at a temperature below your target fermentation temperature. If I'm fermenting at 50 - 55F that means I'll cool the wort to around 45, pitch my yeast, and then set the controller to where I want to ferment.

 

[OkashiiBrew]

Ditto Darwin18

BIG starter
Cool to BELOW fermentation temp, pitch and let rise to bottom of fermentation temp range.

 

[bottlebomber]

Underpitching issues aside(though you did way underpitch), lager yeasts do tend to have longer lag phases. I usually do my starters a week before brew day, and its been several times now that I haven't seen activity in the starter for a day or even two.

 

[Nil]

Well, as an update (11 APR 2014) my first lager is dead after re-pitch. I am right now in the process of making a starter (120g of DME in 1L of filtered water and 1/2 tsp of yeast energizer). I smacked the bag and plan to add it to the mini-wort is tomorrow (75F). Oxygenate for 30 minutes and then stirr over-night. I will see.

If after this week of struggle I dont see any result, I will have to re-pitch again with a ale dry yeast the save the batch.

Thanks for all your comments!
Nil... Friday...

 

[Nil]

Oxygenate for 30 minutes today and after, add the yeast. Stir 'til tomorrow.

Sorry folks! Too many beers today...

 

[BigFloyd]

Well, as an update (11 APR 2014) my first lager is dead after re-pitch. I am right now in the process of making a starter (120g of DME in 1L of filtered water and 1/2 tsp of yeast energizer). I smacked the bag and plan to add it to the mini-wort is tomorrow (75F). Oxygenate for 30 minutes and then stirr over-night. I will see.

If after this week of struggle I dont see any result, I will have to re-pitch again with a ale dry yeast the save the batch.

Thanks for all your comments!
Nil... Friday...

Why not a dry lager yeast? Two packs rehydrated and pitched would have had it going already.

 

[mblanks2]

Why not a dry lager yeast? Two packs rehydrated and pitched would have had it going already.

+1 - Rehydrated 34/70 usually gets my lagers going in 12 - 18 hours.

 

[Nil]

Update 14 APR 14: Wort started bubbling like hell in 12 APR 14 evening after re-pitching with the starter on 12 APR 14 morning. The normal bubbler was not enought and I have to replace it with a long hose to a sanitized water bucket.

So far so good. 6 days delay but I can handle that. Now I plan to keep 1ry fermentention for two (2) more weeks, go to a diacetyl rest for two additional weeks @ 65F, and then lager for for three (3) months at 33F.

Any further advice?

Thanks!! Nil

 

[Darwin18]

If you keg, you can carbonate on gas and lager simultaneously. It saves a couple weeks of carbonation time.

 

[masonsjax]

Diacetyl rest doesn't need 2 weeks. A few days should be sufficient. In fact you can taste a sample and see if you even need one at all. With the massive underpitch, I'd go ahead and do it though, can't hurt.

 

[Nil]

Any hints on how it may taste? Still bubbling (15 APR 14) and going.

BTW, I have been not quite lucky with CO2 forced carbonation. I plan to do natural carbonation (glucose) til I master the alternative.

Thanks, Nil

 

[masonsjax]

Diacetyl tastes like butter and has a sorta slick oily mouthfeel.

Natural carbonation is definitely harder to master than force carb with co2. Just hook up your gas at serving pressure and leave it sit. The carb will be about done at day 10 and should be perfect at 2 weeks. You can't overcarb with the set and forget method as long as you choose an appropriate pressure for your style and temperature.

 

[Nil]

When shoulda I do the diacetyl rest, before or after lagering?

I was thinking of a diacetyl rest for a week to allow the temperature to stabilize all across the glass carboy.

Thanks, Nil

 

[BigFloyd]

When shoulda I do the diacetyl rest, before or after lagering?

I was thinking of a diacetyl rest for a week to allow the temperature to stabilize all across the glass carboy.

Thanks, Nil

You do it as fermentation is still going on. I start checking my lagers at 7 days. Once they're 75-80% of the way from OG to expected FG, I bump the temp controller to 64*F and let it finish there before cold crashing (5-7 days) and racking to the keg for lagering.

 

[Yooper]

When shoulda I do the diacetyl rest, before or after lagering?

I was thinking of a diacetyl rest for a week to allow the temperature to stabilize all across the glass carboy.

Thanks, Nil

It needs to be done at the tail end of fermentation, generally about 5-7 days into fermentation, or at about 1.020, depending on the OG.

You want the yeast to still be active to clean up diacetyl.

I don't know why on earth you'd do it for a week, to "stabilize all across the glass carboy", though. That sounds pretty crazy to me.

Do a diacetyl rest until you're at FG, and the diacetyl is gone. That might take 24 hours, or 3 days- but it won't take a week unless you've got a huge problem. If you've got a huge problem, a week at room temperature won't fix that.

 

[Nil]

I measured the FG yesterday ang it was 1.02. I'll start the DR today.

Thank! NIl

 

[Nil]

Just some thoughts (this is my first lager in 5 years as a Homebrewer):

I tested the FG gravity with a hydrometer (needed a lot of volume). As I said, the FG gravity was 1.02. Cool...
I tasted the beer (I was NOT gonna to flush the sample) and TASTED LIKE HEAVEN. Not cloudy, clear beer. Question is that: why lager for 2-3 month at chilling temperatures, once the FG gets to 1.01 or less? Fine tune of flavors? Clarity? My beer is quite clear in this point in time... and taste like nothing I tasted before...

Thought??? Thanks, Nil

 

[zacster]

You'll have to make another batch so that you can taste pre-lager and post-lager simultaneously. It just gets better with age.

 

[Nil]

How long should I lager the beer? Some folk told me 3 months yet I think this is a long time.

 

[BigFloyd]

How long should I lager the beer? Some folk told me 3 months yet I think this is a long time.

A general rule of thumb is a week for every 10 gravity points. A 1.050 OG beer should lager just a few degrees above freezing 5 weeks or more.