Kettle Sour

[fendersrule]

GREAT idea. Other than that, everything looks good?

Mainly, 60 Billion CFM seem right?

Anything else else during the boil you'd recommend me doing to improve the quality of beer?

Does the "white wheat" need to go through the mill? I'm assuming this means "Flaked white wheat". I didn't run it through the mill last time I used this grain. Just put it in the bag along with my crushed barley.

 

[RPh_Guy]

CFU = Colony-Forming Units
Remember to store the Lacto in the fridge.

Wheat malt needs to be milled. It may require a tighter gap.
Flaked wheat is not wheat malt. It does not need milled because it is already crushed into flakes.

 

[fendersrule]

Great. I'l used flaked white for this.

OK...60 CFU it is. I may put in a couple extra for good measure.

 

[fendersrule]

We're off to the races!

Girlfriend wanted to make a sour tonight, so we did it.

First time doing the BIAB technique. I have a new 20G pot, but we used the old 15G pot instead since we were just making a single 5G batch. Plenty of space.

She wanted to mash at 152sh. We only lost 3F over 60 minutes being about 45F outside, wrapped with a sleeping bag. Not bad.

First time use of my cereal killer grain mill, and it just created the perfect looking grain. Holy hell, it looks good.

OG of my recipe is 1.061. We came out to 1.053 (refract) before boil. I'm using a 20 year old pot for this which is wider, so no doubt we should nail or intended OG when the time comes before we pitch the yeast. I'm feeling really good that that will land about 6.5% with around 1.012 FG. We'll see.

Grain bill:

8.8 Lbs 2 row
.5 Lbs Cara 80L
1.8 Lbs flaked wheat

Pitched 9 capsules (180 CFU) of bacteria in kettle @ 80F. wrapped it tight. Sitting at room temp.

Will give it 48 hours-ish, and proceed to boil...I'm thinking a 45 min boil max whil adding a tad bit out hops, and then pretend it's beer at that point. Planning to shoot for <5 IBU.

We may add 1oz of tangerine <15 min of boil, and maybe 1oz of orange peel at the same time to give it some character.

Sound good?

 

[fendersrule]

Question: how long should my second boil be if my first one was 15 minutes? Do I simply just boil for 45 min?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

I think whatever you want to do for the second boil is fine depending on volume/abv targets additions etc. Haven't used orange peel before but I must say I have used tangerine peel and really like the flavors it imparts.

 

[TwistedGray]

I think whatever you want to do for the second boil is fine depending on volume/abv targets additions etc. Haven't used orange peel before but I must say I have used tangerine peel and really like the flavors it imparts.

The second boil is to kill the lacto (and add stuff if you want) so add accordingly. The boil itself though, again, is just to kill the lacto.

...just wanted to make sure you are aware of the function of that. Note: Some people do not do a second boil and instead just ***** the yeast, for whatever that's worth. Several ways to skin the cat...or rather, milk da funk!

 

[fendersrule]

Awesome. I’m kinda wanting to measure my efficiency since I’m using a new BIAB process (and a new mill) so what I’ll do is boil for 45 minutes so I can have an accurate indicator of efficiency giving me a combined boil of 60 minutes.

I have a hunch that I am well above 70%. Heck, I may be around 80%. Best I got with my previous method is 60%, so I’m very happy!

Good to know that all the second boil is there to kill the lacto and strictly for additions. So 15 minutes would suffice given the additions and very very low hopping, but going longer won’t hurt.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

The second boil is to kill the lacto (and add stuff if you want) so add accordingly. The boil itself though, again, is just to kill the lacto.

...just wanted to make sure you are aware of the function of that. Note: Some people do not do a second boil and instead just ***** the yeast, for whatever that's worth. Several ways to skin the cat...or rather, milk da funk!

Yeah I was just giving the no answer answer. I don't even kill the poor lacto anymore it's our friend and should stay around for the entire experience! Blame RPH guy he converted me away from a lacto-murderer.

 

[fendersrule]

I’m thinking she wants to add tangerine and lemon (or orange peel) for 15 minutes of the boil too. 2oz combined total.

 

[TwistedGray]

Yeah I was just giving the no answer answer. I don't even kill the poor lacto anymore it's our friend and should stay around for the entire experience! Blame RPH guy he converted me away from a lacto-murderer.

Yeah, I don't do hop additions when I kettle so I may also try this as well. Do you find that the beer continues to sour while bottle conditioning? That is, have you tried one at two weeks and one at two months (or longer, ideally) and noticed a difference?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, I don't do hop additions when I kettle so I may also try this as well. Do you find that the beer continues to sour while bottle conditioning? That is, have you tried one at two weeks and one at two months (or longer, ideally) and noticed a difference?

It may increase in sourness to a limited extent unless you dry hop or add hop tea.

My most recent batch with kveik had no hops. Lacto added at 12 hours. I bottled 3 days after brewing. PH was 3.34 at bottling and 3.27 over 2 weeks later.

 

[fendersrule]

Sounds like PH is everything during souring...or at least if you care to get an indication of how much souring (acid) is taking place.

We're using straight up tap-water. It's been great for our beer, tastes clean, and looks clear. Probably not "ideal" tap water but "good" tap water to make beer with.

Hopefully our sour is...."sour"....we pitched 180 CFU in 6.5 Gallons of wort. Planning to bring to a boil on Saturday night....so it won't quite be 24 hours, but maybe 22 hours of full souring!

The local HBS was out of US-05 (my fav yeast probably). He gave me a different brand of "Wheat Yeast" and told me it would be great for the Sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds like PH is everything during souring

Technically the amount of acid and its salt is what makes things taste sour, and is measured by titration (TA = titratable acidity)... but brewers are lazy so we use pH and call it good enough.
Type of acid(s), amount of residual sugar, and water minerals also affect the perception of sour.

But yes, checking pH is the absolutely the best way to monitor the progress of Lactobacillus. A pH meter has other uses like to help ensure you achieve optimal mash pH. It's also used in winemaking/cider/mead for various purposes if you ever go down those paths.

22 hours of souring might not be enough, depending on how sour you like.

Also FYI, lactic acid affects the FG. Your FG may be higher than you expect because lactic acid is dense.

I'm kind of wondering what yeast you got, but it really probably won't make much difference. Pre-soured beers are typically very clean.

Cheers. Hope everything turns out great!

 

[fendersrule]

Great feedback. I'll post a picture of the yeast when I get home.

Would you recommend longer than 22 hours? Perhaps if we waited until Sunday, that would make it 32 hours. We just like a good sour. Not something we can barely taste, but something that is definitely on the fore-front of present. We don't want a tart bomb.

Good to know about FG. The recipe I believe is shooting for around 1.011, but going a little higher A-OK. I'll just make sure to not worry about attenuation for this time around because the lacto is interfering with it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Would you recommend longer than 22 hours?

Generally yes, but what I like might not be what you like. It's a wild guess how sour it will be at that point, most likely mild to moderate sourness (pH 3.5-3.9). It's difficult to judge because my processes are a lot different.
Most sources generally recommend 24hrs for mild sourness and 48 hours for increased sourness when kettle souring.

 

[fendersrule]

Is it worth drawing a sample at the 22 hour mark to taste it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is it worth drawing a sample at the 22 hour mark to taste it?

That's debatable. Typically the sweetness of the wort masks the sourness or at least makes it difficult to judge.
Personally I'd recommend ~48 hrs, especially at lower temp.

 

[fendersrule]

Cool. I like 10 Barrel's Crush beers. Not sure if you've had one...

I'll plan to go 48 hours, which would be Saturday night. That was the original plan.

Should my wort look any different when I remove the saran wrap?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Should my wort look any different when I remove the saran wrap?

No, but it should smell different.

I haven't had any 10 Barrel sours unfortunately.

 

[fendersrule]

Here’s the yeast.

Great. If I see any “growth” then I know something t bad has happen. Should look normal, but smell weird, got it.

 

[fendersrule]

Finished the wort off.

The wort smelled a little weird, but looked exactly the same as it did. When it boiled, it smelled exactly the same as it did.

Refractometer gave exactly the same reading pre-boil.

My first time B.I.A.B. and my first time with my new mill I landed at 70% efficiency, which I'm really happy with. I was stuck at 58% with my old method.

OG: 1.058
Mashed at 152F

Who the heck knows what my FG will be. I'm guessing or hoping that I'll get 75% attenuation at that lower mashing temp and land at 1.015 which will get me a 5.7% sour ale, which should taste right at home.

4.6 IBU, 6.7 SRM. Wheat made up to 16% of fermentable.

We only used 1Oz of tangerine peel for last 15 minutes of boil. It should taste like a "hint" of it.

I'm surprised how much water I lost just by letting it sour in the kettle for 48 hours. My pre-boil (which I only did for 15 minutes) started off at 5 gallons, when I had 6.8 gallons to begin with prior to the mash. There seems to be a lot of evaporation, or more than expecting with kettle souring.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm surprised how much water I lost just by letting it sour in the kettle for 48 hours. My pre-boil (which I only did for 15 minutes) started off at 5 gallons, when I had 6.8 gallons to begin with prior to the mash. There seems to be a lot of evaporation, or more than expecting with kettle souring.

Nah. A lot of water gets absorbed into the grain. The other main loss is from boiling.
Loss should be negligible during souring.

 

[fendersrule]

I could have swore I checked it prior to the initial boil and it was still 6.7 gallons. I know I did because that’s what told me that I’m done letting the bag hang...

I lost two gallons somewhere!

I suppose it’s possible to lose 2 gallons over a 15 minute boil but I call bs on that.

 

[SanPancho]

Evaporation takes place below boiling. Depending on how long it take you to get from like 160-170 to boiling youcan see alot more evap than youd think from a “15 min” boil. And you boiled twice.

Plus you lose 4% volume or so just in cooling back to room temp.

 

[fendersrule]

Hmm. I'm using a wide inefficient pot.

The second boil + chilling I closely monitored the water level. I didn't loose very much at all!

Either way, I made it out at just about 4.8-4.9 gallons with 30 minutes combined boils and double-chilling, so I still filled up my 5G carboy nicely.

Today I'm making a batch of beer, and I'll be using my new Spike brewing kettle which is taller rather than wider. I'll probably keep with 6.7ish gallons and should hopefully land right at 5! The nice thing is that the spike kettle has etching on the inside, so I can better monitor the water level at all times...finally!

 

[fendersrule]

12 hours after the pitch. Carboy is 62F right now....krausin is forming but it hasn't punched the accelerator yet. We chose to not rehydrate.

First time using this yeast. I'm use to US-05, which is a BEAST!

Yes, you can see some pellicles forming...which would be troubling if I didn't purposely "infect" the beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

you can see some pellicles forming

That's definitely krausen, not pellicle.
Looks good!

I could have swore I checked it prior to the initial boil and it was still 6.7 gallons.

How are you measuring your wort volume and are you adjusting for temperature?
I guarantee that's not accurate. I'm guessing you just read it incorrectly. It happens, especially with unfamiliar equipment.

I use a yardstick with markings at each gallon, a different set for each kettle.
Etchings are difficult to read and may be inaccurate.

Same s.g. before and after souring means the volume didn't significantly change during souring.

Cheers

 

[fendersrule]

Good advice. There’s def pellicle. Look again.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There’s def pellicle. Look again.

Absolutely no way. I deal with pellicles constantly.
1. It's too soon. Pellicles do not form that quickly, especially when unintentional.
2. CO2 from active sacc fermentation makes pellicle formation very unlikely. They typically only form in the presence of oxygen.
3. It doesn't look like a pellicle. It looks like normal Sacc fermentation. It's a new strain of yeast for you, and they don't all look the same.
Review these 2500+ posts
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/pellicle-photo-collection.174033/

Cheers

 

[fendersrule]

I’ve never seen those 6 or so round bubbles like that forming in my 10 batches. I’m a noob.

Right now it’s full of Krausin like you said.

 

[fendersrule]

 

[BrewBoyd]

For those of you wondering how to keep your kettle warm enough for those 48 hours, here's how I did it...

 

[fendersrule]

or I think you can get a heat pad or heat strips!

 

[TwistedGray]

ps: Sous vide equipment works well, too. Usually you drop the carboy in a sous vide water bath. I did that for the first several kettle sours until I got my Mash&Boil.

 

[RPh_Guy]

For those of you wondering how to keep your kettle warm enough for those 48 hours, here's how I did it...

View attachment 620327

Honest question: is this a joke?
Either way that's pretty funny!

 

[fendersrule]

Funny timing, because that's my biggest concern and thing I may do different. Probably an unnecessary worry.

Fermenter is still kicking....BUT....I cooled the pot to around 90F, pitched, and saran wrapped it, and I'm sure it fell out of "ideal" range shortly sometime during the next 42 hours. I left the room at 68F at that time because I didn't have any fermentation going (normal house temp). It was probably over 90F for maybe 4-8 hours tops, and then the rest was a gradual slow. Just a wild guess.

Keeping it at least 90F for 48 hours straight I bet may create a more "sour" beer....next time I would heat-strip it and put a sleeping bag over the kettle...

If we have a sour-enough beer with what we did, I would consider it very low effort and would easily do again!

Right now I lowered my room to 62F because it's ale fermentation time...I have 5 gallons of Boo Koo Rev 2 going, 5 hours of the Sour going, and about 6 gallons of various Cider going.

Sounds like a burp facility.

 

[BrewBoyd]

Honest question: is this a joke?

The photo is a joke, but not the use of the hot tub. With under 6 gal. in a 10 gal. kettle it was quite stable. The hot tub cover pushed it down slightly but the kettle lid was nowhere near the waterline. And the lid was taped on.

There was some kind of reaction between the pool chemicals and the aluminum kettle resulting in some soft scaly stuff caked on the kettle exterior which is visible in the photo.

 

[TwistedGray]

The photo is a joke, but not the use of the hot tub. With under 6 gal. in a 10 gal. kettle it was quite stable. The hot tub cover pushed it down slightly but the kettle lid was nowhere near the waterline. And the lid was taped on.

There was some kind of reaction between the pool chemicals and the aluminum kettle resulting in some soft scaly stuff caked on the kettle exterior which is visible in the photo.

Redneck ingenuity at its finest - good on you

 

[Veets]

For those of you wondering how to keep your kettle warm enough for those 48 hours, here's how I did it...

View attachment 620327

You absolutely must put that picture on your label, or tap handle if you keg.[emoji1]