Kettle Sour

[Andrew Hodgson]

I recall you mentioning this in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one). Still holding out to see how it comes out as I'd like to get away from expensive OYL-605.

You and me both. I will be brewing on Sunday and trying to get the beer into bottles and conditioned ASAP so it won't take too long to assess how the caps work. I think I will just open and dump 5 of them into the fermenter like Garrett mentions above and see how low it will go. 5 caps working just as well versus a pouch of OYL605 would make me a happy camper.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Those are the ones I bought to try out.

Exactly what i use. Get them in the fridge when you get them. Relatively fresh you can use 1 cap per gallon, but once they get a little older, i tend to use extra, like 8 caps per 6 gal.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I recall you mentioning this in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one). Still holding out to see how it comes out as I'd like to get away from expensive OYL-605.

When i first started kettle souring, i used OYL-605 with a buffered starter and all. Saved some with the idea that i'd keep using it, but you have to feed it. Huge PITA as far as i'm concerned. Doesn't get any easier than getting enough capsules for at least 5 batches for the price of one, with a lot less effort.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Woops I have had them at room temp with the other supplement non-sense. Will fridge when I get home.

 

[isomerization]

When i first started kettle souring, i used OYL-605 with a buffered starter and all. Saved some with the idea that i'd keep using it, but you have to feed it. Huge PITA as far as i'm concerned. Doesn't get any easier than getting enough capsules for at least 5 batches for the price of one, with a lot less effort.

Were you storing at 5C (fridge)? I keep an 8 oz mason jar of my completed starter that way. Works just fine every 6 months (I do 11 gal twice of year of kettle sours).

EDIT: I do still make a starter with it, so the cost of DME is still there.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Per Milk the Funk:

“Both growth and the the lowering of pH begin to stabilize around 12-48 hours (assuming the Lactobacillus does not have any yeast to compete with). Titratable acidity will also rise drastically during growth, but will also continue to rise after growth has completed. The maximum growth that a particular species or strain is capable of might be explained by its pH tolerance, and thus its ability to produce more acid. For example, L. plantarum has been shown to grow in a very low pH environment (3.37-3.0 pH, depending on strain) due to their ability to better control large pH gradients between the cytoplasma and the external environment.”

I'm not sure why you're quoting this to me... It's not contrary to what I was saying.
What was it I said that you wanted to correct, so we can discuss?

RPH is saying that they like to pitch the lacto at the same time as the yeast...something I've never heard of or done. Do you (RPH) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product.

No, but co-souring results are the same as pre-souring in my experience.

That's my confusion...if I am kettle souring at 100F and fermenting at 60-65F how can pitching them at the same time and fermenting at 60-65F be ideal for the kettle souring aspect. Also, is it even called kettle souring at that point? Or does it fall under traditional souring?

As others have said, plantarum works well down to 65°F, so there's no need for a separate souring stage. It's not a kettle sour ... I'd simply call it "co-souring" as opposed to pre-souring or post-souring.

RPh guy recently turned me on to different souring schedules as well. Did a gose with a lacto pitch 48 hours after the sach pitch, got down to 3.08 ph and I enjoyed how the mixed pitch worked. I read through this first: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation. Apparently co-pitching can subdue the sach characteristics so I let it establish itself then added lacto.

Post-souring is the main approach I use now. It lets the yeast develop more flavor since acidity mutes yeast expression.
On brew day I drain 500mL of fresh wort into a flask before pitching yeast and use this as a starter for Lacto. I add a couple grams of calcium carbonate, add Lacto (one probiotic capsule), let it sit at room temp, and pitch at 48-72 hours. It develops full acidity within a few days and the yeast have already contributed flavor, so everyone's happy.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

I'm not sure why you're quoting this to me... It's not contrary to what I was saying.
What was it I said that you wanted to correct, so we can discuss?

You literally asked for sources regarding my statement that Lacto could go down to pH 3.0, additionally that quote indicates additional souring occurs past where Lacto growth is inhibited.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You literally asked for sources regarding my statement that Lacto could go down to pH 3.0, additionally that quote indicates additional souring occurs past where Lacto growth is inhibited.

I said "it'll stop around 3.1-3.3 by itself."
MTF says 3.0-3.37.

Is that what you mean?
It's absolutely correct that some strains can go to 3.0. My range was just more narrow around the most common endpoints that I see from my experience and others. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

TA is obviously correlated with pH in sour wort, so I think it's reasonable to assume acid production has stopped when the pH stabilizes.
Exactly what point in time Lacto growth becomes inhibited I think is irrelevant since that's not something we measure and doesn't have any significant impact on flavor or process (as far as I know, besides the fact that you should let Lacto starters go for a couple days).

I thought you were debating dry hopping... Dry hops have been shown to stop acid production.
There's more info about dry hopping an active Lacto fermentation on the MTF Facebook group and a little bit on the wiki (hops page).
I like sour, so I don't dry hop until pH is 3.3 or lower.

Cheers

 

[isomerization]

I said "it'll stop around 3.1-3.3 by itself."
MTF says 3.0-3.37.

Is that what you mean?
It's absolutely correct that some strains can go to 3.0. My range was just more narrow around the most common endpoints that I see from my experience and others. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

TA is obviously correlated with pH in sour wort, so I think it's reasonable to assume acid production has stopped when the pH stabilizes.
Exactly what point in time Lacto growth becomes inhibited I think is irrelevant since that's not something we measure and doesn't have any significant impact on flavor or process (as far as I know, besides the fact that you should let Lacto starters go for a couple days).

I thought you were debating dry hopping... Dry hops have been shown to stop acid production.
There's more info about dry hopping an active Lacto fermentation on the MTF Facebook group and a little bit on the wiki (hops page).
I like sour, so I don't dry hop until pH is 3.3 or lower.

Cheers

Ah well there you go, I took your comment about not trusting random people’s pH readings as an insult.

I would say that IF souring does indeed continue to occur after growth has stopped, that using a buffering agent is more important than I had thought.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I do start to wonder when people get readings like 2.7 or 2.8.

 

[shortyz]

im going to give those a go on my next kettle sour, sick of wyeast containmating my process.

 

[fendersrule]

I really want to sour, but how the hell do you cheaply, safely, easily, hold a 15 gallon kettle to 80-100F over 2 days? Heat strips, heat pads, etc? I definitely am not going to go to my stove-top every 2 hours and turn on the burner for 2 days! If I attempt, I would probably make a single batch (5 gallons).

 

[cactusgarrett]

how the hell do you cheaply, safely, easily, hold a 15 gallon kettle to 80-100F over 2 days?

You don't have to. Use lacto plantarum and just hold above 65°F.

 

[fendersrule]

Awesome! Can you link me to a process for making a sour using the room temp method? Thanks so much!

 

[cactusgarrett]

It's throughout this thread. Just use plantarum instead of the other strains and hold as low as 65°F.

 

[fendersrule]

Lacto Plantarum does a nice job with kettle sours at lower temps. I brewed a Gose where I chilled the wort to around 90F pitched, let it sit on my kitchen counter (around 70F) and it dropped to 3.45 ph in around 36 hours.

I adjusted my ph down to 4.5 with lactic acid before I pitched, purged the headspace with CO2 and sealed the edge of the lid with plastic wrap. Beer turned out great.

This is really interesting! I would love to try to make a "room temp" sour.

Do you have a good 5 gallon simple recipe, maybe something that's around 6% ABV using the room temp method?

From what it sounds like you did is make the mash, cover it, let it drop to 90F, then pitch the plantarum, wrap it, let it sit for 48 hours, then proceed to the boil and make beer per usual.

The new thing for me is that I've never measured PH before...all my beers have been turning out really good just using tap water. I suppose that measuring PH is not necessary, just let it sit for the full 48 hours?

If I was doing a PM receipe, would I add the extract before pitching the plantarum or would I add the extract after (before the boil)?

 

[cactusgarrett]

1. Recipe - depends on what you're looking for. For example, a standard Berliner Weisse is 50% Pils, 50% Wheat, kettle sour as desired, then ferment with a clean/neutral yeast. Done. To help you out, stop thinking about it as a "room temp method". There's just a souring method. Temp is solely dependent on the lacto strain you select.
   
   
2. "...mash, cover it, let it drop to 90F, then pitch the plantarum, wrap it, let it sit for 48 hours, then proceed to the boil and make beer per usual".
   Exactly. You just described a kettle sour. People mysticize it, but it really is that simple. Two extra steps to ensure success:
   • After running off your mash, do a quick boil to kill any nasties.
   • As you boil the first time (before souring), pre-acidify - something like 10 drops of 88% lactic acid for a 5gal batch. Some people do, some don't. Doing so also helps ensure nasties don't grab hold as it's souring pre-fermentation.
     
3. I've never measured pH, either. I just pitch lacto and wait 48-72 hours before boiling to kill it, then fermenting. I trust the lacto, as tasting doesn't get you anywhere: the residual sweetness masks the perception of sourness enough that you can't get a good handle on the projected outcome by tasting.
   
   
4. For a PM, you basically do whatever you do to get your final wort as if it were the full batch post-mash, pre-boil. So in this case, you'd add the extract, do a quick boil and chill, pitch lacto, then boil (with hops if desired), then chill and ferment.

 

[fendersrule]

Cool, thanks. I'm thinking of doing a Blackberry Sour Ale, and maybe another Raspberry Sour Ale, 1G batches each. I'll have to build out the recipe and what not. Probably will go all grain. I'm thinking to make the blackberry and Raspberry extract myself by blending first (frozen bags), then boiling them in some water for 7 minutes. Probably would strain, then pour it into the wort in the later phase right before I pitch the yeast. I can definitely can forsee some wheat being apart of the grain bill for nice retention.

How do you make something "more sour"? Is it simply just adding more lacto? Curious if there's a set amount or a calculator for it. I generally find that "Gose" beers are too mild in the sour taste for me. I typically like my sour taste to be more on the strong side, but not not completely crushing.

 

[TwistedGray]

Cool, thanks. I'm thinking of doing a Blackberry Sour Ale, and maybe another Raspberry Sour Ale, 1G batches each. I'll have to build out the recipe and what not. Probably will go all grain. I'm thinking to make the blackberry and Raspberry extract myself by blending first (frozen bags), then boiling them in some water for 7 minutes. Probably would strain, then pour it into the wort in the later phase right before I pitch the yeast. I can definitely can forsee some wheat being apart of the grain bill for nice retention.

How do you make something "more sour"? Is it simply just adding more lacto? Curious if there's a set amount or a calculator for it. I generally find that "Gose" beers are too mild in the sour taste for me. I typically like my sour taste to be more on the strong side, but not not completely crushing.

I think there is a limit to the souring you can get away with before you have to start futzing with the water source. Surely someone can chime in.

I would hold off on the fruit until fermentation is complete, and for a one gallon batch I would go at least two pounds of fruit (maybe three). A 2:1 ratio is generally safe. Also, I would save the headache and just clean the berries, freeze the berries, and toss in whole.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I think there is a limit to the souring you can get away with before you have to start futzing with the water source

I think i read some discussion in the Sour/Wild board that lacto will stop producing lactic acid once it's down to pH ~3.0. Down around 3.2 and 3.1 is where the tangy sourness starts to get abrasive, and most people don't care for it down that far.

+1 to TG - fruit is typically added to sours on the tail end of fermentation (to scrub oxygen), if not after fermentation is complete.

Don't want to beat a dead horse, but ALL these discussions are throughout the boards here. One thing to do: take the weekend and pore over the Milk the Funk wiki. ANYthing you could ever need to know about sours is there.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Main_Page

 

[fendersrule]

I decided to do an all-grain 2-3 gallon batch using my hemp bag in one of my girlfriend's pots. I'll probably dunk sparge since it's all on a stove top, or just omit sparging all together and just raise my grain bill to assume 60% efficiency. I'm going to reserve my 20 gallon pots for serious batch sizes. I'll plan to use US-05 yeast by the end. Something about 6% ABV would fit the bill pretty well...we like our beers to have some kick in the pants.

What is a really dead simple sour recipe that we could pitch bacteria at 70F? I think it's best we not mess with fruits/flavorings this go around, just something to get our feet wet with a sour ale. Not looking for anything extravagant, just a simple grain bill that would make a good sour beer that's easier for her to try. I'd welcome a step-by-step guide. I don't test my water (yet), but I know that tap water tastes pretty good here...not the best, but my beers have been pretty impressionable in a good way.

I looked at my city water report and my PH is "common" at 7.0 Ph. It's a little on the high side, but it's not bad. See below, which was from a couple years ago.

I'd welcome any hand-holding here. I'd take pics a long the way. The girlfriend wants to take a break from making her delicious ciders (they are VERY good), and wants to try a simple sour ale. The girlfriend LOVES the aroma of hops more than the "bitter" taste. She's hard to please, but as long as she tastes sour and smells hop aroma, she will be pleased. Help!

 

[RPh_Guy]

What is a really dead simple sour recipe that we could pitch bacteria at 70F?

50% 2-row 50% white wheat malt.
Mash at 155°F for an hour.
Chill to 70°F.
Pitch yeast and Lacto plantarum.
Ferment as normal.
Optional: dry hop with the hop/amount of your choice after fermentation. (0.75oz of Czech Saaz?)
Package as normal.

Super easy and it'll give you something like a Berliner.

FYI Water pH doesn't matter. The water alkalinity matters so that you can get the mash pH in the desired range.
The ion ranges listed by that report are too wide to be helpful. You can send a water sample to a lab for analysis or use straight RO/distilled water as a blank slate.

 

[fendersrule]

Interesting....you pitch yeast AND bacteria at the same time....I thought you pitched lacto first, then wait 2 days, then boil and proceed with regular brewing logic.

Learning a lot already!

So basically:

50% 2-row 50% white wheat malt ratio
Mash at 155°F for an hour (depending on what your intended FG would be)
BOIL 1 HOUR?
Chill to 70°F. (which I would do naturally or on ice due to small batch)
Pitch yeast and Lacto plantarum. (how much lacto?)
Ferment as normal. (yep, 10-14 days)
Optional: dry hop with the hop/amount of your choice after fermentation. (0.75oz of Czech Saaz?) (sounds good)
Package as normal.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I thought you pitched lacto first, then wait 2 days, then boil and proceed with regular brewing logic.

There are several different methods, and variations on those. This is the most simple.

Boiling isn't necessary, but feel free to include that step. Don't add hops prior to souring.

Pitch about 50-200 billion Lacto cells.
Anything with L. plantarum is good: OYL-605, TYB Lacto blend, GoodBelly, Swanson, Renew Life Ultimate Flora, etc.

Cheers

 

[fendersrule]

When I go to pitch yeast, I would have had to already have bittered up the beer with hops...

Here's what I'm thinking. Please let me know what you guys think, and I can print this off for my GF.

Hoppy Kettle Sour Wheat Ale
65% efficiency
OG: 1.067
FG: 1.017
IBU: 50
5 Gallons, ~6 gallon boil.

Grains:
6.5 lb 2-row
6 lb white wheat
1 lb crystal 15

Hops:
1.5oz cascade @ 60 min
1.5oz amarillo @ 15 min
0.5oz cascade dry hop for 7 days
0.5oz amarillo dry hop for 7 days

1) Fill kettle to pre-boil water level. Achieve the appropriate strike water temp, probably around 158F or so (use a calculator). Clip on hemp bag. Stir in crushed grains into bag while stirring. Mash for 153F: cover/insulate pot for 60 minutes. Pull bag out and let it drip completely. Rinse with 170F water (optional). Squeeze if you want (optional).

2) Boil wort for 10-15 minutes to sanitize. Put chiller in kettle prior to boil so that chiller gets sanitized. Chill wort to down to less than 90F (option), or just let the kettle sit on the counter for a 15-20 hours to cool naturally. Personally, I'd want to chill it to hurry it up.

<take refractometer reading here to give you an idea what your OG will be>

3) Pitch 200 billion lacto cells. Do we stir or just pitch it on top? Put saran wrap on the kettle and wait for 48 hours. Do not disturb.

4) Remove saran wrap and boil the wort, follow hop schedule, chill, and precede to fermentation per usual.

 

[cactusgarrett]

When I go to pitch yeast, I would have had to already have bittered up the beer with hops...

This is a reason to kettle sour, since you can follow a typical bittering regimen with a boil after souring. If you co-pitch (sacc & lacto), you're resigned to the fact that you have <5 IBU or you won't get souring. You may not be making a berliner, but the process is the same (just bitter during your second boil, as with your step 4). http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Berliner_Weissbier

2. Chill to 90°F - less chance for something bad to grab hold (yeast or otherwise).
3. Just like yeast - pitch the lacto; no stirring needed.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks Cactus. Sounds like my step-by-step plan is right on the money....and we can begin to make a sour as soon as this weekend!

Just like when we give our cats flora, we break open the capsules. I assume the same here. If a single capsule has 10 Billion units, we'd simply break open 5-20 of them. Sounds fun!

It will be her first beer...I'll be her brew-mate for this one.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you folks like sour beers around 50+ IBU?

 

[fendersrule]

Your right...that's too high. A lot of the sours I drink actually have aroudn 8-17 IBU...I would have thought much higher...

Maybe I should redo the hop schedule so that I can get somewhere in this range instead.

What about dry-hopping. Is that weird for a sour?

 

[cactusgarrett]

If the capsules are fresh, about 1 opened capsule per gallon of wort. You're better off dry hopping for hop character than having a bitter sour. Most people don't like the sour + bitter combo, but dry hops allow for more of the flavor/aroma to come through without the bitterness. Marries better with the sour.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks! I’ll probably just keep with a single hop sour and land around 7ish IBU. Then dry hop the rest of the bag.

One capsule per 1 gallon seems easy to remember!

I can understand now why people would dial pitch!

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

+1 for dry hop only for flavor.

 

[fendersrule]

Thanks guys. Really helpful! I ordered a two pack of L. Plantarum. 10 billion CFU a capsule. Should I still use 1 capsule per gallon or should I up that to 2 capsules per gallon? I think you guys said that more bacteria doesn’t mean more sour...much like how yeast works...

Do you guys recommend a certain IBU, even though I’m doing the two stage approach? Otherwise I’ll keep it around 10 IBU and count in hop bombing posts fermentation.

Other than that, I think this is straight forward! If this goes good I’ll start adding fruit flavors!

 

[cactusgarrett]

For kettle sours, nor more than 5 IBU (with plantarum). Other strains can be more hop tolerant with training, but not plantarum. Price you pay for the ease of low temp ability. To me, no point in using 5 IBU when you can use 0 then add in some bitterness or flavor/aroma during the second boil or dry hop, respectively.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

To me, no point in using 5 IBU when you can use 0 then add in some bitterness or flavor/aroma during the second boil or dry hop, respectively.

I agree. Did a kettle sour, second boil was 20 minutes with 1oz Citra @ 20 and @ 5, came out a grapefruit bomb, to the point that my younger sister's hipster friends asked me how much grapefruit I added.

 

[SanPancho]

For the record, there are in fact commercial breweries that use grain for their lacto source. Historically this was done by making sauergut, used for ph adjustment in germany. They then use it to inoculate wort. And there are commercial brewers that pitch lacto as a copitch as well as post primary. Again, germans and/or traditionalists. There is someone here on this forum that has a write up on his process, one of the earliest lodo guys around here as i recall. Not much different than a normal starter. Sauergut is also useful for o2 scavenging if you want hoppy sours, or just hoppy stuff in general.

For the record- Lacto cultures can technically go below 3. Have personally seen one at 2.9ish before. Lab tested. But its an outlier and not to be expected- 3.1 to 3.3 is generally the lower bound, for practical purposes.

You can in fact sour even with ibus present, just have to know what bugs to use. Its obviously not plantarum.

 

[S-Met]

came out a grapefruit bomb, to the point that my younger sister's hipster friends asked me how much grapefruit I added.

Actually snorted while reading this. Glad I wasn't taking a sip of coffee or it would have gone out my nose.

Just curious, do your sister's friends have neck-beards too. Just trying to complete the picture.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

Actually snorted while reading this. Glad I wasn't taking a sip of coffee or it would have gone out my nose.

Just curious, do your sister's friends have neck-beards too. Just trying to complete the picture.

There was an attempt at it. Plastic-rim glasses, Ironic low-top Chucks, tall Ironic socks, skinny jeans that ended about 3" above the ankle. He liked my beer so can't fault his taste too much. The lacto acidity caused it to finish a little high, like 1.014, where the same yeast starter on the same grainbill that was not kettle-soured (split batch) finished at 1.010. It was a nice beer and the residual sweetness cut the sourness a fair amount, so it was sour without the pucker. They killed that keg first, over a too-malty amber and a Hallertau blanc pale ale that was too delicate for my taste. Fun party though.

 

[fendersrule]

For kettle sours, nor more than 5 IBU (with plantarum). Other strains can be more hop tolerant with training, but not plantarum. Price you pay for the ease of low temp ability. To me, no point in using 5 IBU when you can use 0 then add in some bitterness or flavor/aroma during the second boil or dry hop, respectively.

Thanks! Definitely 0 IBU for souring, but I'm kinda wondering what IBU should I shoot for during the boil? I'm guessing you guys are going to recommend ~5 IBU. My girlfriend now doesn't want to dry hop....so I'll use .5oz of Cascades only.

I'm thinking I'll probably get about 76% or so attenuation at 153F. I get about 85% attenuation at 149F with US-05. So I lowered my estimated FG down a little bit because I think at a 153F mash she may fall a bit lower. Maybe not. Who knows, the girlfriend may want a slightly sweeter one and we may mash at 155F instead.

Here's our updated recipe. Feel free to make any additional improvements. I don't plan to add a Whirlfloc because we like our sours a little hazy. Would you guys also confirm my Plantarum CFM count?

Kettle Sour Wheat Ale
68% efficiency
OG: 1.065
FG: 1.016
IBU: 4.8
5 Gallons, ~6 gallon boil.
Est. ABV: 6.4%

Grains:
6 lb 2-row
6 lb white wheat
.5 lb crystal 60

SRM: 7.1

Hops:
0.5oz cascade @ 15 min
1.5oz cascade dry hop for 7 days (optional)


1) Fill kettle to pre-boil water level. Achieve the appropriate strike water temp, probably around 158F or so (use a calculator). Clip on hemp bag. Stir in crushed grains into bag while stirring. Mash for 153F: cover/insulate pot for 60 minutes. Pull bag out and let it drain completely. Rinse with 170F water (optional). Squeeze if you want (optional).

2) Boil wort for 10-15 minutes to sanitize. Put chiller in kettle prior to boil so that chiller gets sanitized. Chill wort to down to less than 90F.

<take refractometer/hydrometer reading here to give you an idea what your OG will be. If low, add some DME after souring before the next boil.>

3) Pitch 6 capsules (60 billion total) of lacto cells into 6 gallon wort. Put saran wrap on the kettle and wait for 48 hours. Do not disturb.

4) Remove saran wrap and boil the wort, follow hop schedule, chill, and precede to fermentation per usual.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I would take a grav reading before AND after souring. That way, if something goes weird, you can see if you got any unwanted fermentation happening during the souring process (indicative of some type of infection).