Kettle Sour

[kproudfoot]

Going to attempt to make my fist sour this weekend and keep going back and forth how to do it. Was originally going to do a more tradition sour and let it age but have decided to do a kettle sour instead. But now how to exactly do that. My understanding is that I need to keep the wort around 80-90 degrees for 1+ days. I was going to cool it then. Wrap my keg in Saran Wrap and blankets but basement is pretty cold this time of year so I thought about pumping into my spike conical that has the heater and then pumping back a few days later. I know I need to make sure to completely clean the conical but should this work?

Thanks.

 

[TwistedGray]

Here's a simplistic look at it:

1. Mash in the grains to create the wort.
2. Hold wort at 90-100F for a number of hours (I usually sour for 48hrs).
Important: Do not allow oxygen to get into wort!
3. Once soured, boil and do as you please

Note: Anything that comes in contact with your kettle sour may carry bugs throughout its life (re: plastic, silicone, ...).

 

[deadwolfbones]

This may be helpful: https://brew4fun.wordpress.com/2019/01/21/how-to-brew-a-kettle-sour/

 

[kproudfoot]

Thanks. I think I understand how I’m just contemplating using my stainless conical to keep the temp up since my basement is cold and his time of year plus I don’t really have a way to keep the oxygen out as suggesting.

 

[kingmatt]

Lacto Plantarum does a nice job with kettle sours at lower temps. I brewed a Gose where I chilled the wort to around 90F pitched, let it sit on my kitchen counter (around 70F) and it dropped to 3.45 ph in around 36 hours.

I adjusted my ph down to 4.5 with lactic acid before I pitched, purged the headspace with CO2 and sealed the edge of the lid with plastic wrap. Beer turned out great.

 

[TwistedGray]

Thanks. I think I understand how I’m just contemplating using my stainless conical to keep the temp up since my basement is cold and his time of year plus I don’t really have a way to keep the oxygen out as suggesting.

Just saran wrap the kettle that you mashed in. That's common practice.

FWIW - I do not have tools to purge with, and my kettle sours turn out quite yummy.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Yeah, I wouldn't overthink the O2. Just don't open it too often.

 

[BrewInspector]

I keep a spare cooler on hand just for this purpose. Mash as usual in a cooler. Drain directly to the spare cooler. Cool to the appropriate temp. The cooler keeps the temp high enough to sour. Transfer to kettle for the boil.
A Cooler Sour

I have kept it in the boil kettle once without insulating it. I would heat it up when the temp dropped too low. It worked but temp was not stable and I didn't like reheating it with my propane burner.

Is your conical capable of maintaining around 90 - 100 degrees? That is beyond typical fermentation temps. Metal would be easy enough to clean.

 

[TwistedGray]

Metal or glass are acceptable OR classify some other thing as sours only and you're safe.

 

[isomerization]

It is my understanding that the “keep O2 out” method is only required when using grain as your Lacto source (as there are other nasty microbes present). With pure culture, not a big deal.

 

[TwistedGray]

It is my understanding that the “keep O2 out” method is only required when using grain as your Lacto source (as there are other nasty microbes present). With pure culture, not a big deal.

What do you mean "using grain as your Lacto source"? Are you saying the grain is the souring agent? That does not seem correct as it is the bacteria that causes the souring.

 

[CoreyD]

Milk the funk has a great wiki on how to sour. It goes over how to fermenter, kettle, and grain sour. It can be found here
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

 

[RPh_Guy]

Amidst all the other very reasonable methods, here's what I suggest:
1. Mash, boil, & chill as normal. Use no hops.
2. Add Lactobacillus plantarum and your preferred ale yeast together.
3. Ferment at 65°F or higher.

This is the absolute easiest method. L. plantarum won't contaminate clean batches because it's hop intolerant.
Cheers

 

[TwistedGray]

Amidst all the other very reasonable methods, here's what I suggest:
1. Mash, boil, & chill as normal. Use no hops.
2. Add Lactobacillus plantarum and your preferred ale yeast together.
3. Ferment at 65°F or higher.

This is the absolute easiest method. L. plantarum won't contaminate clean batches because it's hop intolerant.
Cheers

Interesting, how do you stop the souring?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Interesting, how do you stop the souring?

Why would you want to stop the souring???

Lacto is self-limiting, so it'll stop around 3.1-3.3 by itself.
If you want it higher, you can dry hop it with 0.5oz/5 gal of whatever hop you like when it reaches desired pH. That'll stop the plantarum immediately.

If you use distilled/RO water that'll also limit the sourness, along with adequate chloride levels. OP is making a gose, so that'll be plenty of sodium and chloride, assuming he's adding salt.

EDIT: there's also this as an option: https://www.morebeer.com/products/lysozyme.html
I haven't used it.

 

[deadwolfbones]

What do you mean "using grain as your Lacto source"? Are you saying the grain is the souring agent? That does not seem correct as it is the bacteria that causes the souring.

Lactobacillus lives on almost everything and it's almost always present on grain. You can just toss a handful in your wort and watch it go.

 

[isomerization]

Why would you want to stop the souring???

Lacto is self-limiting, so it'll stop around 3.1-3.3 by itself.
If you want it higher, you can dry hop it with 0.5oz/5 gal of whatever hop you like when it reaches desired pH. That'll stop the plantarum immediately.

If you use distilled/RO water that'll also limit the sourness, along with adequate chloride levels. OP is making a gose, so that'll be plenty of sodium and chloride, assuming he's adding salt.

EDIT: there's also this as an option: https://www.morebeer.com/products/lysozyme.html
I haven't used it.

Not entirely true. Like a boulder rolling down a hill, a large enough biomass of Lacto will push through a pH of 3.0 before stopping.

What’s your reference on the RO water comment? I think I’m just confused as to what you intended there, are you talking no mineral additions?

I can’t believe anyone would use Lysozyme in a food product! What about all of the protein/DNA that would be released? Also I believe the optimal pH range is around neutral (6-9), so I wonder how this would work in beer/wine. I know you said you hadn’t used it, FYI.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not entirely true. Like a boulder rolling down a hill, a large enough biomass of Lacto will push through a pH of 3.0 before stopping.

I'm quoting professionals who do this. If your results are different then maybe there's another variable, or do you have a published source I could compare?? The Lacto I use typically settles at 3.3, so I never stop it. TYB's blend should stop at 3.3 also, and Omega I think is generally 3.2. It's hard to trust random people's pH readings.

What’s your reference on the RO water comment? I think I’m just confused as to what you intended there, are you talking no mineral additions?

Specifically the alkalinity is lower in purified water. Higher alkalinity means more buffering, which means more acid production (TA), which means more sour taste at the same pH. Therefore water with lower alkalinity creates beer that tastes less sour.

I can’t believe anyone would use Lysozyme in a food product! What about all of the protein/DNA that would be released?

So? People routinely lyse Lacto cells with heat or add lysed yeast cells as nutrient. I'd think yeast would just happily eat the organic nitrogen.

 

[shortyz]

Listen to RPH guy.

Use plantarum (if you want ph <3.5 quickly), get a ph meter, make sure its accurate, know what ph you like to drink, when it reaches the ph you like boil it and add your hop additions as you like. This will kill the lacto and you can add the desired yeast you want for extra flavour. There are many ways of doing sours and theres no 1 real way but kettle souring this way will keep the results even everytime you brew.

Also DO NOT use wyeast lacto! ive used it mutiple times and every time i end up with yeast in it and it starts to ferment. Ive heard of people using the Swanson lacto plantarum off amazon.com with good results, other choice is goodbelly?

 

[isomerization]

I'm quoting professionals who do this. If your results are different then maybe there's another variable, or do you have a published source I could compare?? The Lacto I use typically settles at 3.3, so I never stop it. TYB's blend should stop at 3.3 also, and Omega I think is generally 3.2. It's hard to trust random people's pH readings.

Per Milk the Funk:

“Both growth and the the lowering of pH begin to stabilize around 12-48 hours (assuming the Lactobacillus does not have any yeast to compete with). Titratable acidity will also rise drastically during growth, but will also continue to rise after growth has completed. The maximum growth that a particular species or strain is capable of might be explained by its pH tolerance, and thus its ability to produce more acid. For example, L. plantarum has been shown to grow in a very low pH environment (3.37-3.0 pH, depending on strain) due to their ability to better control large pH gradients between the cytoplasma and the external environment.”

 

[TwistedGray]

Listen to RPH guy.

Use plantarum (if you want ph <3.5 quickly), get a ph meter, make sure its accurate, know what ph you like to drink, when it reaches the ph you like boil it and add your hop additions as you like. This will kill the lacto and you can add the desired yeast you want for extra flavour. There are many ways of doing sours and theres no 1 real way but kettle souring this way will keep the results even everytime you brew.

Also DO NOT use wyeast lacto! ive used it mutiple times and every time i end up with yeast in it and it starts to ferment. Ive heard of people using the Swanson lacto plantarum off amazon.com with good results, other choice is goodbelly?

You must have misunderstood @RPh_Guy's post or perhaps are referring to a later post. RPH is saying that they like to pitch the lacto at the same time as the yeast...something I've never heard of or done. Do you (RPH) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product.

I've also never heard of people using unmilled grain or milled grain (?) to sour beer per @deadwolfbones. Do you (D.W.B.) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product as well.

 

[kingmatt]

You must have misunderstood @RPh_Guy's post or perhaps are referring to a later post. RPH is saying that they like to pitch the lacto at the same time as the yeast...something I've never heard of or done. Do you (RPH) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product.

I've also never heard of people using unmilled grain or milled grain (?) to sour beer per @deadwolfbones. Do you (D.W.B.) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product as well.

Using grain to sour is a pretty common approach, at least on the homebrew level. There are added contamination risks compared with pitching a "pure" strain from a lab but some people swear by the added complexity free form lacto gives the beer. Never tried it myself.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I've also never heard of people using unmilled grain or milled grain (?) to sour beer per @deadwolfbones. Do you (D.W.B.) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product as well.

I think it's more or less a historical technique that people only use these days on an experimental basis. Basically just to prove that they can. With modern sources of isolated lacto there's no reason to do so except in the (perhaps misguided?) pursuit of "authenticity." It's also cheaper, I guess.

More info here: http://brulosophy.com/2015/08/13/berliner-weisse-soured-with-grain-it-finally-worked/

And here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBrewery/comments/89s7z5/souring_with_grain/

 

[cactusgarrett]

You must have misunderstood @RPh_Guy's post or perhaps are referring to a later post. RPH is saying that they like to pitch the lacto at the same time as the yeast...something I've never heard of or done. Do you (RPH) know commercial breweries doing it this way? Would be curious to compare their finished product.

I think most kettle sours are lacto then sacc, but i wouldn't consider a lacto + sacc concurrent pitch to be uncommon. I've done this with sour mixes (not just a kettle soured lacto and sacc) when i want the lacto to get a head start on tang production before tossing in other bugs. Output is pretty similar than a sequential process.

 

[TwistedGray]

I think most kettle sours are lacto then sacc, but i wouldn't consider a lacto + sacc concurrent pitch to be uncommon. I've done this with sour mixes (not just a kettle soured lacto and sacc) when i want the lacto to get a head start on tang production before tossing in other bugs. Output is pretty similar than a sequential process.

It's an interesting approach at souring that I have not heard of. I guess the main issue is that you would have to have souring that can tolerate lower fermentation temperatures, no? That's my confusion...if I am kettle souring at 100F and fermenting at 60-65F how can pitching them at the same time and fermenting at 60-65F be ideal for the kettle souring aspect. Also, is it even called kettle souring at that point? Or does it fall under traditional souring?

 

[TwistedGray]

I think it's more or less a historical technique that people only use these days on an experimental basis. Basically just to prove that they can. With modern sources of isolated lacto there's no reason to do so except in the (perhaps misguided?) pursuit of "authenticity." It's also cheaper, I guess.

More info here: http://brulosophy.com/2015/08/13/berliner-weisse-soured-with-grain-it-finally-worked/

And here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBrewery/comments/89s7z5/souring_with_grain/

Thanks, interested to learn more about this approach.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

RPh guy recently turned me on to different souring schedules as well. Did a gose with a lacto pitch 48 hours after the sach pitch, got down to 3.08 ph and I enjoyed how the mixed pitch worked. I read through this first: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation. Apparently co-pitching can subdue the sach characteristics so I let it establish itself then added lacto.

I am going to duplicate this type of schedule this weekend for a Sour IPA. Brew sour as normal with 0 IBU in the boil. I am pitching a starter of sour IPA dregs and then 48 hours later I will pitch a lacto starter, let it sour and then dry hop two days before packaging to kill lacto and impart hop flavor.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I guess the main issue is that you would have to have souring that can tolerate lower fermentation temperatures, no?

Plantarum is PERFECT for this. I found the Swanson capsules are MUCH easier than a starter - 1 capsule (opened and dumped) per gallon. Sours beautifully in 48-72 hours at room temp.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Plantarum is PERFECT for this. I found the Swanson capsules are MUCH easier than a starter - 1 capsule (opened and dumped) per gallon. Sours beautifully in 48-72 hours at room temp.

I will try just dumping the caps in like you did...I figured a starter would be better as I haven't used the caps before but opening and tossing the lacto in would be much easier. I will take the lazy man route and dump the contents of 5 in and see how low it will go. Thanks for the idea!

 

[isomerization]

It's an interesting approach at souring that I have not heard of. I guess the main issue is that you would have to have souring that can tolerate lower fermentation temperatures, no? That's my confusion...if I am kettle souring at 100F and fermenting at 60-65F how can pitching them at the same time and fermenting at 60-65F be ideal for the kettle souring aspect. Also, is it even called kettle souring at that point? Or does it fall under traditional souring?

You would use a heat tolerant yeast strain like WLP644 or the various Kveiks (imo).

 

[isomerization]

RPh guy recently turned me on to different souring schedules as well. Did a gose with a lacto pitch 48 hours after the sach pitch, got down to 3.08 ph and I enjoyed how the mixed pitch worked. I read through this first: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation. Apparently co-pitching can subdue the sach characteristics so I let it establish itself then added lacto.

I am going to duplicate this type of schedule this weekend for a Sour IPA. Brew sour as normal with 0 IBU in the boil. I am pitching a starter of sour IPA dregs and then 48 hours later I will pitch a lacto starter, let it sour and then dry hop two days before packaging to kill lacto and impart hop flavor.

Please correct this to sour NE IPA

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Please correct this to sour NE IPA

I live in NY.

 

[isomerization]

I live in NY.

So no sense of humor? Check

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

So no sense of humor? Check

Hahahahaha internet sarcasm FTW. I knew I'd be outed as a closet juice-wolf posting that recipe. We can't deny our nature.

 

[isomerization]

Hahahahaha internet sarcasm FTW. I knew I'd be outed as a closet juice-wolf posting that recipe. We can't deny our nature.

All jokes aside, what benefit are you expecting to gain going this route, versus the kettle sour approach? If you sour first, then you can late hop til your juicewolf heart is content!

 

[cactusgarrett]

I will take the lazy man route and dump the contents of 5 in and see how low it will go. Thanks for the idea!

I like to think of it as the "risk averse" approach.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

All jokes aside, what benefit are you expecting to gain going this route, versus the kettle sour approach? If you sour first, then you can late hop til your juicewolf heart is content!

As I am using a harvested batch of dregs from a Sour IPA I am trying to get the dregs personality to come through before the souring. As far as why I am adding lacto to the back-end instead of the front-end it really is just easier in my system to sour in the fermenter. I use a one-vessel eBIAB system and it really isn't feasible to keep the wort in the kettle to sour as my setup takes up the majority of my kitchen and I brew on weekends. I saw the technique posted by RPH guy and initially wanted to use it as a means to let Sach Trois ferment warm and then add lacto for a nice mixed ferment. Also I prefer my sours on the low side pH-wise so it doesn't bother me to let the lacto go until it tires out.

I have only done the technique once but I plan to try variations (co-pitching, etc.) and I think it can be useful for others who find the kettle sour to actually be difficult or inconvenient on their systems. Plus I find it to be sort of a "warm-up" to true mixed ferms tha utilize sach, lacto and brett. Haven't taken the brett plunge yet though.

 

[TwistedGray]

Plantarum is PERFECT for this. I found the Swanson capsules are MUCH easier than a starter - 1 capsule (opened and dumped) per gallon. Sours beautifully in 48-72 hours at room temp.

These ones?

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

These ones?

Those are the ones I bought to try out.

 

[TwistedGray]

Those are the ones I bought to try out.

I recall you mentioning this in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one). Still holding out to see how it comes out as I'd like to get away from expensive OYL-605.