Keeping ph in check during mash

[RyPA]

Looking for some input on how I can better keep my mash at the desired ph. Today's batch should have had me at 5.38 according to bru'n water, but when I checked my ph towards the end of the mash I was at 4.8.

Questions:
1. When should mash ph be read, beginning, mid, or at the end of mash?
2. Should it remain at the target throughout, or is it expected to transition?
3. Is there a significant improvement to the finished beer having the ph at 5.2-5.4 verus 4.8/4.9?

Recipe - https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1574107/not-clear-neipa
Ignore anything in the recipe itself regarding ph as I cannot figure out how to do water adjustments in brewers friend.

 

[day_trippr]

I take my first pH reading 20 minutes post-strike. I'll take another at the end of the mash, then one specific to the last runnings of fly sparge, then one with the full pre-boil volume, and a final one at the end of the cooling just before filling the fermentors. I find the end of mash pH is usually just a handful of hundreths higher than the 20 minute reading. Really can't quantify any character differences between a few tenths...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

I can't see the linked recipe, as it's paywalled. But the URL suggests NEIPA. Mash pH for that shouldn't be that low, and Bru'nWater is usually close to actual.

Did you make any last minute changes to things that weren't in the Bru'nWater sheet? Different acid addition, etc?

Maybe an issue with your meter? Did you calibrate it shortly before using? If so, was its reading sort of close to that of the cal solution, like within .05 or so? If it's way off, the probe might need to be replaced.

 

[dmtaylor]

Check calibration. It is extremely unlikely your mash pH was that low unless perhaps you measured hot in the mash, and even then... that's very low to the point of unbelievability.

 

[RyPA]

I can't see the linked recipe, as it's paywalled. But the URL suggests NEIPA. Mash pH for that shouldn't be that low, and Bru'nWater is usually close to actual.

Did you make any last minute changes to things that weren't in the Bru'nWater sheet? Different acid addition, etc?

Maybe an issue with your meter? Did you calibrate it shortly before using? If so, was its reading sort of close to that of the cal solution, like within .05 or so? If it's way off, the probe might need to be replaced.

Yes, it's a NEIPA. I didn't know BrewersFriend blocked public recipes. The only last minute change was almost a pound of rice hulls, which I do not believe would matter to ph.

I have not calibrated since I bought it around 2 years ago, hopefully that is my problem. My FG came in at 1.063 with an expected 1.065.

Edit: I found that BrewersFriend flipped the recipe back to private and I am 110% sure I made it public. You should be able to see it now.

Check calibration. It is extremely unlikely your mash pH was that low unless perhaps you measured hot in the mash, and even then... that's very low to the point of unbelievability.

Thank you, will do.

 

[MaxStout]

I have not calibrated since I bought it around 2 years ago, hopefully that is my problem.

Has the meter been stored with the probe in a KCl solution all that time? If not, the probe may be bad and need replacing.

 

[RyPA]

Has the meter been stored with the probe in a KCl solution all that time? If not, the probe may be bad and need replacing.

After using it, I rinse the sensor well with RO water then put the cap on.

 

[day_trippr]

pH meter make and model?

 

[RyPA]

pH meter make and model?

Its a cheap meter from China that i bought on Amazon.

 

[ClaudiusB]

Its a cheap meter from China that i bought on Amazon.

Some pH probe basics to avoid future problems.
Milwaukee, Hanna Instruments, Bluelab

 

[RyPA]

Which is best for someone who is cheap

 

[mashdar]

When you say put the cap on do you mean full of storage solution?

Recipe didn't indicate mineral/acid additions and profile was basically RO. Are you using RO with no additions? If so, there is no way that pale of a beer is low on pH.

I've had good luck with a ~$70 Milwaukee unit, but my N=1. 2 years of monthly~ use, stored in storage medium and it's still spot on.

 

[MaxStout]

Which is best for someone who is cheap

I have had excellent results with the Apera PH60. Very reasonably priced and accurate. Probes are replaceable.

 

[dmtaylor]

Its a cheap meter from China that i bought on Amazon.

This is fine, I use a cheap Chinese one too, but... you NEED to calibrate it EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU USE IT.

 

[RyPA]

When you say put the cap on do you mean full of storage solution?

Recipe didn't indicate mineral/acid additions and profile was basically RO. Are you using RO with no additions? If so, there is no way that pale of a beer is low on pH.

I've had good luck with a ~$70 Milwaukee unit, but my N=1. 2 years of monthly~ use, stored in storage medium and it's still spot on.

I used RO water with Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions to get me to my desired chloride to sulfate ratio (2 to 1ish).

 

[DuncB]

Your recent PH readings are water under the bridge now.

If the pH is that low will be good when you do the dry hop as that raises pH anyway.

But I'll wager the meter is reading wrong, as mentioned, calibrate, store in storage medium nothing else!

Probable your pH was nearer 5.8 than 4.8.

Brewfather usually very accurate predictor of mash pH and I'm sure the brewersfriend and BruNwater are similar.
Assume it was at the estimated software value.

I use a cheap pH meter but always calibrate before use and store in the storage medium.

 

[RyPA]

Your recent PH readings are water under the bridge now.

If the pH is that low will be good when you do the dry hop as that raises pH anyway.

But I'll wager the meter is reading wrong, as mentioned, calibrate, store in storage medium nothing else!

Probable your pH was nearer 5.8 than 4.8.

Brewfather usually very accurate predictor of mash pH and I'm sure the brewersfriend and BruNwater are similar.
Assume it was at the estimated software value.

I use a cheap pH meter but always calibrate before use and store in the storage medium.

Thanks, buddy. My takeaway here is to calibrate pre-brewday, which I certainly was not doing/considering.

 

[day_trippr]

I recommend also storing the business end submerged in a storage solution - typically 4M saturated KCL - to extend the useful lifespan of the sensor...

Cheers!

 

[YeastFeast]

Which is best for someone who is cheap

I’m a cheap bastard too but I’m on my 3rd meter and this one is super solid & easy to use and worth a couple extra bucks (than the cheap ones) in my opinion.

Milwaukee MW102:
https://g.co/kgs/v2QQrSX

 

[RyPA]

I’m a cheap bastard too but I’m on my 3rd meter and this one is super solid & easy to use and worth a couple extra bucks (than the cheap ones) in my opinion.

Milwaukee MW102:
https://g.co/kgs/v2QQrSX

Thanks, maybe Ill invest in a nicer one, since this is for beer, and beer is important.

Regarding process..do you guys check ~20 minutes into the mash, adjust ph as needed with baking soda or whatever, check again at the end and make sure more adjustments, or is the end of mash check only for record keeping?

 

[MaxStout]

Thanks, maybe Ill invest in a nicer one, since this is for beer, and beer is important.

Regarding process..do you guys check ~20 minutes into the mash, adjust ph as needed with baking soda or whatever, check again at the end and make sure more adjustments, or is the end of mash check only for record keeping?

I draw a sample at about 20 minutes into the mash, cool it and take a reading. However, by this time, most of the conversion is done, so too late to take corrective action. The measurement is simply to confirm pH against the predicted value, and make adjustments next time.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks, maybe Ill invest in a nicer one, since this is for beer, and beer is important.

Regarding process..do you guys check ~20 minutes into the mash, adjust ph as needed with baking soda or whatever, check again at the end and make sure more adjustments, or is the end of mash check only for record keeping?

I check one time, about 10 minutes into the mash. If I need to adjust by a LOT, I might check pH one more time after adjustment with acid or baking soda, but usually don't bother.

 

[Indian_villager]

I’m a cheap bastard too but I’m on my 3rd meter and this one is super solid & easy to use and worth a couple extra bucks (than the cheap ones) in my opinion.

Milwaukee MW102:
https://g.co/kgs/v2QQrSX

I have been using one of these for 10 years. Solid unit.

As for when to test. I check 15 mins in. Usually my pH is within a few thousandths of my calculated so I don't have to adjust. But if needed I usually only end up needing a smidge more acid anyway.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I have had excellent results with the Apera PH60. Very reasonably priced and accurate. Probes are replaceable.

The Apera is the easiest and least fussy meter I've ever used--and I've used many, including Milwaukees. I think pH meters belong in the "buy once, cry once" folder.

 

[Zadkiel]

I too bought a cheap chinese pH meter, knew I should probably calibrate it but assumed it would be close out of the box and I'd save the calibration solutions to do it 'later'. had massive pH problems with my first grain brew, got crazy numbers all over the place, tried to correct, thought it had worked but then my wort pH measured bad, tried to correct that and it was responding totally different to what calculators were telling me that acid additions would do...

Calibrated the meter, checked my wort again, to find it was way off, and was actually worse than I had thought (because of bad adjustments I made in the mash based on bad info). Thought I'd adjusted my wort down from 6.1 to 5.6, but then found that '5.6' wort was actually 6.0 and my starting point had been even worse than the 6.1, which explained why my acid additions weren't working.

 

[RyPA]

For a recipe with an unused grain bill, you are then relying on accurate additions? I had always thought the point of using a ph meter is to find and correct, not just to find and fix next time. Good to know.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I too bought a cheap chinese pH meter, knew I should probably calibrate it but assumed it would be close out of the box and I'd save the calibration solutions to do it 'later'. had massive pH problems with my first grain brew, got crazy numbers all over the place, tried to correct, thought it had worked but then my wort pH measured bad, tried to correct that and it was responding totally different to what calculators were telling me that acid additions would do...

Calibrated the meter, checked my wort again, to find it was way off, and was actually worse than I had thought (because of bad adjustments I made in the mash based on bad info). Thought I'd adjusted my wort down from 6.1 to 5.6, but then found that '5.6' wort was actually 6.0 and my starting point had been even worse than the 6.1, which explained why my acid additions weren't working.

You're not alone, sir. We've all been there.

 

[mac_1103]

I had always thought the point of using a ph meter is to find and correct, not just to find and fix next time.

Trouble is that it's really hard to correct fast enough.

 

[Yooper]

Yes, it's a NEIPA. I didn't know BrewersFriend blocked public recipes. The only last minute change was almost a pound of rice hulls, which I do not believe would matter to ph.

I have not calibrated since I bought it around 2 years ago, hopefully that is my problem. My FG came in at 1.063 with an expected 1.065.

Edit: I found that BrewersFriend flipped the recipe back to private and I am 110% sure I made it public. You should be able to see it now.

Thank you, will do.

Brewer's friend does not block public recipes. They don't change recipes to private, but anyway, I can see it now.

The meter has to be calibrated every single brew day. And what I do is take a sample of the mash, put it in a shot glass without grain, and cool it in a little cup of ice water so it's under 90F or so, and then take the reading.

 

[mashdar]

The meter has to be calibrated every single brew day.

This may be true for a really accurate reading, but in my experience, my meter is within 0.1 after 12+ months of not calibrating, so I get lazy. Since I only use the reading to confirm Bru'n, I figure it doesn't matter much in real-time.

 

[RyPA]

Brewer's friend does not block public recipes. They don't change recipes to private, but anyway, I can see it now.

The meter has to be calibrated every single brew day. And what I do is take a sample of the mash, put it in a shot glass without grain, and cool it in a little cup of ice water so it's under 90F or so, and then take the reading.

I am confident I set it to public, as I do with all of my recipes, but it got switched to private somehow .

Thanks..I think I’m going to try my cheapy meter again, calibrating it pre brew day, and see what happens.

 

[Yooper]

This may be true for a really accurate reading, but in my experience, my meter is within 0.1 after 12+ months of not calibrating, so I get lazy. Since I only use the reading to confirm Bru'n, I figure it doesn't matter much in real-time.

Maybe. Maybe not. But it takes like 3 minutes to calibrate, and it's been stored in KCL which crystalizes, so why wouldn't somebody calibrate? I don't see a downside, only a positive.

 

[mac_1103]

The pH meters we used to use in my lab days were much higher quality than anything you homebrewers are using and it was SOP to calibrate before each use.

 

[marc1]

Thanks, maybe Ill invest in a nicer one, since this is for beer, and beer is important.

Regarding process..do you guys check ~20 minutes into the mash, adjust ph as needed with baking soda or whatever, check again at the end and make sure more adjustments, or is the end of mash check only for record keeping?

I check once near the end of the mash. No adjustments after measurement.

 

[Bramling Cross]

This may be true for a really accurate reading, but in my experience, my meter is within 0.1 after 12+ months of not calibrating, so I get lazy. Since I only use the reading to confirm Bru'n, I figure it doesn't matter much in real-time.

Boy, that doesn't strike me as a terribly good idea. Being out a tenth renders the instrument largely useless, especially when you remember that it's a logarithmic scale. A tenth is a loooooong way out and doesn't really tell you anything.

If the expense of keeping fresh calibration fluids is keeping you from routinely calibrating your instrument, consider these. They're cheap enough that you can swap out your calibration fluid on a monthly basis, they're accurate, and they stay fresh until you open them.

 

[ClaudiusB]

I employ multiple pH meters and pH controllers. My system continuously monitors the mash pH without requiring any corrections. All brewing samples are cooled down as close to the calibration temperature as possible for the benchtop pH meter. I take two mash samples at 15 minutes and mash out, plus many more during the whole process.

 

[YeastFeast]

I employ multiple pH meters and pH controllers. My system continuously monitors the mash pH without requiring any corrections. All brewing samples are cooled down as close to the calibration temperature as possible for the benchtop pH meter. I take two mash samples at 15 minutes and mash out, plus many more during the whole process.

Curious. Do you have any pictures of this?

 

[Bassman2003]

pH meter basics:

Calibration solution has a shelf life of about 1 year. So keep it fresh or use the individual packages/pills. The solution does go off and your readings will be wrong. So this is really the most important step.

Calibrate at least once every two weeks or when using the meter.

Take a reading 15-20 minutes in to the mash. If it is not what you wanted, take notes and get it on the next mash as it is kind of too late at that point.

Always cool the sample to 75F before putting the meter in the wort. The brewing world talks about pH number assuming the sample was taken in the 70's F.

Keep the probe in liquid or at least moist for longevity.

Here is a video I made about calibration solution -

 

[Indian_villager]

I employ multiple pH meters and pH controllers. My system continuously monitors the mash pH without requiring any corrections. All brewing samples are cooled down as close to the calibration temperature as possible for the benchtop pH meter. I take two mash samples at 15 minutes and mash out, plus many more during the whole process.

Would love to liberate any of the decommissioned mettler heads from work. Then I look at the price of replacing those probes that can take temperature and then I am comfortable with my offline samples.

Truly envious of your setup.

 

[Broothru]

When you say put the cap on do you mean full of storage solution?

Recipe didn't indicate mineral/acid additions and profile was basically RO. Are you using RO with no additions? If so, there is no way that pale of a beer is low on pH.

I've had good luck with a ~$70 Milwaukee unit, but my N=1. 2 years of monthly~ use, stored in storage medium and it's still spot on.

Without calibration??