Just Czech It

[brewNYC]

So, I know there are dozens, if not hundreds of lager strains out there. Is there a significant difference in their flavor?

Reason I’m asking- I’m considering just picking out the easiest yeast to use (probably a Czech pils or an American lager, because of low diacytl and high flocculation). And then using it for every lager I make, from pilsners to marzen to schwartzbeer. I do something similar with ales - just using an English yeast for anything that doesn’t need a specific yeast characteristic, and I’ve been pretty happy with the approach. The question is, do lager yeasts add unique flavors, or is their job just to stay out of the way of the malt and hops?

 

[Steveruch]

Dry or liquid?

 

[brewNYC]

Dry or liquid?

Either one. Though I haven’t found a dry lager yeast with high flocculation (one of the things I’m going for)

 

[monkeymath]

The question is, do lager yeasts add unique flavors, or is their job just to stay out of the way of the malt and hops?

The sentiment that lager yeasts were "clean" and "just staying out of the way" is a conception that I am entirely unable to comprehend, although it is widespread on this forum.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Fermentis S-23 is from an Urquell strain. I discovered this in a back and forth email conversation on the subject with a Fermentis Tech.

Genetically, WLP-800 appears to be Saccharomyces cerevisiae. An ale yeast.

The real Pilsner Urquell is fermented at ~46 degrees F. That's got to be a really slow fermentation.

 

[brewNYC]

Fermentis S-23 is from an Urquell strain. I discovered this in a back and forth email conversation on the subject with a Fermentis Tech.

Genetically, WLP-800 appears to be Saccharomyces cerevisiae. An ale yeast.

The real Pilsner Urquell is fermented at ~46 degrees F. That's got to be a really slow fermentation.

Hmm, that may be worth looking into, though there may be liquid options that are more of what I’m going for.

I usually stay away from the borderline yeasts that can be fermented warm. If I want an ale I’ll just brew an ale.

All that aside, does anybody really know if the cold fermented lager yeasts really have different flavors? Anyone split a batch (other than the exbeerament with 34/70 vs SF23?

 

[Bramling Cross]

Either one. Though I haven’t found a dry lager yeast with high flocculation (one of the things I’m going for)

I've found that Fermentis' S-189 floccs reliably and quickly. In fact, it's starting to supplant 34/70 as my primary lager yeast. 34/70 is easy to work with and it makes a great beer, but S-189 is just a bit easier to work with and makes an equally nice beer.

Returning to your primary question, lager yeasts do exhibit unique traits and flavors, but the range of these variations is much, much more muted than those expressed by ale yeasts. While Pride of Ringwood, Chico, and a Hefe strain will make wildly divergent beers from the same grist, lager yeasts make lager beer. There are differences, but they're quite muted compared to ale strains.

I would suggest picking a strain and running it out for several generations. This will give you the opportunity to dial in your process and recipe and really get to know the strain you've chosen. At that point, you may or may not want to try a different strain, but you'll at least have a consistent baseline from which to make comparisons between strains that exhibit subtle differences.

 

[Brooothru]

Fermentis S-23 is from an Urquell strain. I discovered this in a back and forth email conversation on the subject with a Fermentis Tech.

Genetically, WLP-800 appears to be Saccharomyces cerevisiae. An ale yeast.

The real Pilsner Urquell is fermented at ~46 degrees F. That's got to be a really slow fermentation.

Agree on the genetics of WLP-800. Tracing some of the research done in recent years and trying to suss out what it all means, it looks like present day "lager" yeast (s. pastorianus) evolved from a chance cross-breeding in the region near Pilsen of "ale" yeast (s. cereviase) with s. bayanus which had hitched a ride on some random source traveling from Asia along the Silk Road trade route. The mutated yeast organism (s. pastorianus) found it's way into some Czech brewery, and from there Czech brewers introduced it to the German brewers in Bavaria.

The rest, as they say, is history.

WLP-802 "Czech Budejovice Lager" or Wyeast 2124 "Bohemian Lager" would be my first choice for brewing a Pilsner Urquel-type lager, although WLP-800 would certainly make a decent lager even if it's technically and genetically an ale strain. Same goes for WLP-838 "Southern German Lager" which also seems to have ale DNA, but still produces some really nice "lagers."

 

[brewNYC]

I've found that Fermentis' S-189 floccs reliably and quickly. In fact, it's starting to supplant 34/70 as my primary lager yeast. 34/70 is easy to work with and it makes a great beer, but S-189 is just a bit easier to work with and makes an equally nice beer.

Returning to your primary question, lager yeasts do exhibit unique traits and flavors, but the range of these variations is much, much more muted than those expressed by ale yeasts. While Pride of Ringwood, Chico, and a Hefe strain will make wildly divergent beers from the same grist, lager yeasts make lager beer. There are differences, but they're quite muted compared to ale strains.

I would suggest picking a strain and running it out for several generations. This will give you the opportunity to dial in your process and recipe and really get to know the strain you've chosen. At that point, you may or may not want to try a different strain, but you'll at least have a consistent baseline from which to make comparisons between strains that exhibit subtle differences.

I haven’t explored the SF-189 option, but it sounds promising, if it flocs well. How is sulfur and diacytl? My wife is less fond of these than I, so I tend to look for the least smelly yeast possible...

 

[odie]

Fermentis S-23 is from an Urquell strain.

The real Pilsner Urquell is fermented at ~46 degrees F. That's got to be a really slow fermentation.

good to know. I just did a Czech pils with S-23. but I think I ran it at 50-55...oops

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

good to know. I just did a Czech pils with S-23. but I think I ran it at 50-55...oops

Your temperatures are more in line with the Fermentis advice for S-23.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I haven’t explored the SF-189 option, but it sounds promising, if it flocs well. How is sulfur and diacytl? My wife is less fond of these than I, so I tend to look for the least smelly yeast possible...

Sulfur has been a non-issue when pitched at an appropriate rate and fermented at 48F-52F-55F. Diacetyl has likewise been a non-issue and I've abandoned D-rests. It's worth noting, however, that my taste buds aren't terribly sensitive to diacetyl. That said, I've never had someone note diacetyl in one of my beers, but I figure it's worth coming clean about my diacetyl blind spot in case its something you're very sensitive to.