John Palmer on LODO

[Schlenkerla]

It's a very valid point. If everyone realized the benefits of low oxygen brewing and wanted to buy fit for purpose equipment then many vendors would have to redesign their products.

Note that most vendors of home brew equipment today are just selling equipment made for other industries with a different brand label on it. The retooling costs could be staggering!

People the likes of Denny, and JP have a huge vested interest in the status quo. Always important to consider someone's ulterior motives when they speak in public.

I was thinking about the monetary investment to make this change. Who's stands to benefit financially? Besides authorship.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Not sure this thread has legs so I'll burn a post here instead of the "epic" thread (which I'm only up to reply #490 )

I am intrigued by oxidation avoidance - on both sides. I've been demonstrably rather OC about the cold side and as I've refined my process and equipment the benefits have been plainly evident - particularly notable in retention of color and prominence of desired characters over time.

The hot side, otoh, I've only done the most obvious of oxidation avoidance techniques, mostly due to other intentions. I've always conditioned my grain before milling (because it makes lautering so much easier) which also means I mill brew day morning because I'm not looking for a lacto fest. I underlet my mash because it's actually convenient given the design of my rig. I recirculate with a return that rests directly atop the wort because that's how an autosparge works. And the HLT-to-BK transfer is via the recirculation port at the bottom of the BK that was there anyway. Finally, my BS2 equipment profile is set for 11.1% boil-off rate because that's what it worked out to after a few brews and it seemed vigorous enough.

So, clearly not a lot of effort so far.

I plan on making a point on the next batch to pre-boil my strike and sparge liquor, chill quickly before strike, dial my boil down a scoche, and see if I can come up with a mash cap that fits my process (with an autosparge that could be a challenge) and see what happens.

Won't be a Helles though I'm thinking I need a Saison on tap.

I might be able to get access to an O2 meter. Need to work on that...

Cheers!

I'm gonna ask a stupid question after brewing 12 years.

I'm mashing in a cooler with single step infusion. So if you fit your cooler with a mash cap, do you stir the mash at certain intervals or let it sit for whole mash schedule?

I'm stir my mash every 15 minutes and loose a lot of heat based on with tun I use and how full it is during the mash. I have a 5 gal and 12 gal. The larger tun usually results in a step mash mash to bring it back into temp.

Question: So again with LODO using a mash lid, is stirring a thing of the past?

I have always questioned this since its heat loss contributor in the name of higher mash extraction. When I started AG Brewing reporting mash efficiency seemed to be common thing to brag about post boil.

FWIW - I have seen plating baths (in manufacturing) use hollow plastic balls as insulators for baths at 210F to retain heat and prevent water loss.

https://www.mcmaster.com/float-balls

 

[schematix]

I was thinking about the monetary investment to make this change. Who's stands to benefit financially? Besides authorship.

Depends how deep you want to get and what you have currently.

I think my initial investment was just fittings, but I subsequently invested several hundred more once I realized there was no going back and wanted to streamline to make my brew day easier.

 

[schematix]

I'm gonna ask a stupid question after brewing 12 years.

I'm mashing in a cooler with single step infusion. So if you fit your cooler with a mash cap, do you stir the mash at certain intervals or let it sit for whole mash schedule?

I'm stir my mash every 15 minutes and loose a lot of heat based on with tun I use and how full it is during the mash. I have a 5 gal and 12 gal. The larger tun usually results in a step mash mash to bring it back into temp.

Question: So again with LODO using a mash lid, is stirring a thing of the past?

I have always questioned this since its heat loss contributor in the name of higher mash extraction. When I started AG Brewing reporting mash efficiency seemed to be common thing to brag about post boil.

FWIW - I have seen plating baths (in manufacturing) use hollow plastic balls as insulators for baths at 210F to retain heat and prevent water loss.

https://www.mcmaster.com/float-ballsView attachment 602930

Most of us underlet the mash, stir once good, and cap. But nearly everyone also recirculates with RIMS or HERMS.

There is great benefit to step mashing. I will never go back to single infusion mashing either.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I now underlet and stir lightly. No dough balls Then recirculate through HERMS. Brewing my Triple on Saturday. I’m going to change up a bit. I’m going to mash at 49, step and rest at 62, then to 170 MO. Even if I didn’t have HERMS, I would only stir once. Every time you open the lid you are introducing O2. I’ve only completed 2 batches minimizing O2 and using stepped mash. The foam stability is better than anything I’ve ever brewed. I do think it is worth the effort.

 

[Iseneye]

Depends how deep you want to get and what you have currently.

I think my initial investment was just fittings, but I subsequently invested several hundred more once I realized there was no going back and wanted to streamline to make my brew day easier.

Yeah you can do it cheapish but depends where you are starting from. I came from single pot infusion BIAB. I am now on dual pot recirculating direct fired mash. So for me the extra costs were:

Going from copper chiller to stainless chiller. This was before people started using brewtan b

Pump for recirculation plus silicon hoses plus quick release fittings plus 4 valves

Two new pots with pre drilled holes plus 1 false bottom.

I was already kegging so only extra was a spunding valve.

So if you are currently bottling you are looking at a big investment. I know that you can do it cheap but in my experience it is an expensive outlay that is worth it. If you are not already kegging the cost is even higher.

 

[schematix]

With few exceptions (i know of only 1 person), if you aren't kegging you probably aren't ready for low oxygen yet. There is a pretty long list of good brewing practices that already have to be in place before making this jump.

I bought 2 kegs when i bought my first kettle. I knew bottling was a losing game before i even started.

 

[Iseneye]

Yep, I agree most people will be kegging already. However, if you are starting from a certain point then that cost needs to be allowed for. I think it is better to be upfront about the costs of going to LODO. Some of the comments on the other forum make it seem like it's a simple matter of putting on a mash cap and away you go. Going full LODO takes a bit of effort and cost. As I said the cost is worth it but we should try to be upfront about what you are in for.

 

[Blazinlow86]

John Palmer gives his opinion on lodo brewing

Lodo brewing community replies by calling him fat.....

 

[Bilsch]

With few exceptions (i know of only 1 person), if you aren't kegging you probably aren't ready for low oxygen yet. There is a pretty long list of good brewing practices that already have to be in place before making this jump.

I bought 2 kegs when i bought my first kettle. I knew bottling was a losing game before i even started.

That's true with the possible exception of bottle spunding directly from the fermenter. Which is about as simple and easy as brewing can get. The only downside being that you have to catch the ferment at the right time to bottle. If a non kegger wanted to give lodo a shot this is the way to go.

I have lots of kegs but still choose to bottle spund about half my batches for the sheer simplicity of it.

 

[Bilsch]

Depends how deep you want to get and what you have currently.

I think my initial investment was just fittings, but I subsequently invested several hundred more once I realized there was no going back and wanted to streamline to make my brew day easier.

Same here. It was relatively inexpensive to switch to single kettle direct fire recirculated system. All I needed was a small pump, false bottom and some fittings.

 

[Dog House Brew]

John Palmer gives his opinion on lodo brewing

Lodo brewing community replies by calling him fat.....

Made me laugh, thanks

 

[Big Monk]

That's true with the possible exception of bottle spunding directly from the fermenter. Which is about as simple and easy as brewing can get. The only downside being that you have to catch the ferment at the right time to bottle. If a non kegger wanted to give lodo a shot this is the way to go.

I have lots of kegs but still choose to bottle spund about half my batches for the sheer simplicity of it.

Bingo. Although bottle spunding or even hybrid sugar/spunding is a game of balancing sediment and scavenging.

It's worked out for me so far.

 

[jdauria]

I am 7 beers in to attempting Lodo. So far I have made an Alt, Helles, Vienna, Porter, German Pils, Schwarzbier and another Helles that is lagering. Are they better than non-LoDo versions of the same recipes, maybe, maybe not, the difference is subtle. However they all taste great and the aroma of all of them is much better. Lot's of fresh grain notes, bread crust in the Vienna, honey in the Pils ,etc. Tapped the Schwarzbier the other day, it is so smooth, roast is not overpowering and my first thought was "this may be my first beer to score 45 or higher in a comp."

What is definitely different is that the beers are crystal clear after boil and chilling. The use of BrewTan B has a lot to do with that I believe. Because of clear wort into the fermenter, transferring to keg before FG in order to carbonate the beer naturally, I have a clear pint of lager in less than two weeks.

They only added cost for me is buying SMB and BrewTan-B. I brew BIAB, so condition and mill the grain right into the bag, slowly lower bag into water and use a smaller kettle cover as my mash cap. I don't preboil water, I treat it with corn sugar and baker's yeast instead. I do not take a hit to efficiency like Brulosophy guys did, in fact, my efficiency increased. And with conditioning the grain, I don't even double mill the grain any more. The Helles I brewed two weeks ago had 93% mash efficiency and 100% conversion efficiency.

Will I keep doing LoDo...for my lagers, definitely. For ales...maybe, but not definitely.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I am 7 beers in to attempting Lodo. So far I have made an Alt, Helles, Vienna, Porter, German Pils, Schwarzbier and another Helles that is lagering. Are they better than non-LoDo versions of the same recipes, maybe, maybe not, the difference is subtle. However they all taste great and the aroma of all of them is much better. Lot's of fresh grain notes, bread crust in the Vienna, honey in the Pils ,etc. Tapped the Schwarzbier the other day, it is so smooth, roast is not overpowering and my first thought was "this may be my first beer to score 45 or higher in a comp."

What is definitely different is that the beers are crystal clear after boil and chilling. The use of BrewTan B has a lot to do with that I believe. Because of clear wort into the fermenter, transferring to keg before FG in order to carbonate the beer naturally, I have a clear pint of lager in less than two weeks.

They only added cost for me is buying SMB and BrewTan-B. I brew BIAB, so condition and mill the grain right into the bag, slowly lower bag into water and use a smaller kettle cover as my mash cap. I don't preboil water, I treat it with corn sugar and baker's yeast instead. I do not take a hit to efficiency like Brulosophy guys did, in fact, my efficiency increased. And with conditioning the grain, I don't even double mill the grain any more. The Helles I brewed two weeks ago had 93% mash efficiency and 100% conversion efficiency.

Will I keep doing LoDo...for my lagers, definitely. For ales...maybe, but not definitely.

I liked your comment about Brewtan-B. The first time I used it I forgot the Irish moss right at flame out. I fired up the kettle, brought back to a boil, added the moss. - Bam!!! - As soon as I added it cloudy as all hell.

I was pissed. Haven't used it since. Since then, my beers have been very clear going to the fermenter.