It's got no flavor

[Nick Z]

I finally drew samples to test two ciders that had fermented out all the way. They are not the oldest batches but they are the clearest and with the least amount of lees.

I had my friend and my mother try it in addition to myself and the consensus was.... no real flavor. It wasn't an issue with being too acidic or too sweet or too tannic. It was just... really boring. There was a slight alcohol flavor. I detected some yeasty aroma (which I disliked) but otherwise there wasn't anything objectionable in it. It didn't have solvent flavors or anything harsh. It just... didn't taste like much of anything. No real body or mouthfeel either.

If I was to compare it to beer I would say it is like Coors Light.

This is a great disappointment though not entirely unexpected. There is a reason people use cider apples for cider and perry pears for perry.

The cider was made from Whole Foods apple juice and the perry was made from Bartlett pear juice which I juiced myself. The cider was fermented with Mangrove Jack M02 yeast. I think Safcider was used on the perry.

I have about nine more batches in various states of fermentation and they will probably turn out similarly since they are also made out of common dessert apples or commercial apple juice.

So what can I do to improve this stuff? I have malic acid, acid blend, tartaric acid, grape tannins, my own untoasted oak chips, and some French oak chips (medium toast) on hand. I could get other flavorings. I saw an organic apple extract suggested. I could add malic acid and run it through malolactic fermentation. I could throw in apple juice concentrate. I could add sugar or fresh apple juice to restart fermentation in order to increase the ABV.

So I'm soliciting opinions from the wiser and more experienced hands here.

While this is a disappointment it is also potentially an opportunity. I have some cider here which I can use for experiments and don't care if the experiments fail.

Thanks in advance.

 

[bmd2k1]

I have Not used those yeasts so can not comment on their end game.

I can tell ya my protocol (ferment in the 60s, cold crashing, refrigeration post-ferment, zero chemicals) using D47 to create a semi to sweet cider with Lots of apple flavor & aroma works for me every time -- for ciders ranging from ABVs 5+% up to low 14s%. Ciders both still or bottle carb'd. (we have Alot of peeps making great cider here....with a wide variety of protocols...so tap into their experiences so u can develop one that works all the time for U) [emoji16]

In ur situation back sweetening with FAJC may be the best way to get some appley-ness back...and you could enhance if so desired with 100% fruit concentrates from a place like www.brownwoodacres.com (my go to 4 fruity variations)

Cheers & good luck [emoji111]

 

[Johnny_M]

I had my friend and my mother try it in addition to myself and the consensus was.... no real flavor.

What temp did you ferment at? How long did you leave it on the lees?

Fermentation temp is important with cider because a lot of the flavors compounds are volatile and will dissipate when fermented at warmer temps (>60F). Leaving cider on the lees for longer can do 2 things add more flavor and also give you a yeast flavor if left long enough for autolysis to occur. Something to think about flavor wise.

 

[Nick Z]

Fermented at 63-64 degrees F. I have a small room where I ferment all the ciders. I did start them out for the first day at 72 F until I saw that the yeast had taken hold and then moved it. I've done that with all of them. I was under the impression that low to mid 60s was a pretty good temp for fermenting them.

This one was racked off the lees when primary fermentation stopped and it had cleared. It's in a 3/4 gallon glass jug for secondary.This one was actually racked rather aggressively. I left a quart behind to get as little lees as possible. There is still some lees in the bottom of this jug but very little. Even so I am going to rack again. Part of it to a ½ gallon (sanitized) mason jar and the rest to a quart jar. I will have to batches to experiment with.

I just need to get proper sized rubber stoppers so I can fit an airlock on those containers.

On the plus side: Aside from the yeasty aroma (which I hope will go away in time when racked to tertiary) I am not detecting any off flavors or aromas. No cardboard, mouseyness, vinegar, etc. My palate may not be sophisticated enough to notice those things though. But it does suggest I got a pretty clean fermentation.

 

[gregbathurst]

Two ways you can get more flavour. Easiest is to backsweeten with a little apple juice, you can do it at bottling with pasteurising, kegging with cold crashing if you drink it fast enough, or add a dash of AJ as you pour a glass. Adding juice or apple flavour after fermentation is how it is done commercially. The more difficult method is to get apples that have been fully ripened on the tree. Apples develop a lot of flavour in the final stages of ripening, but commercial dessert apples are picked early for keeping. If you leave the apples till they get soft and start to fall they have a lot more flavour. This is the "craft cider" way of doing it.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

I always include 1 can of FAJC for each gallon of store juice. It raises the ABV, but more importantly, it gives vastly more apple taste.

Also, if you can find some crab apples, you can juice them and include in the mix. Even just a few pounds per gal will give a big boost to the flavor.

 

[Nick Z]

I don't mind raising the ABV a little. It's rather weak in alcohol, actually. What concerns me about using concentrate is that I've gone to all this trouble to get not from concentrate apple juice or squeeze my own apple juice and then I dump in concentrate. Seems like it defeats the purpose.

That being said, I will still totally do it because wonderfully pure cider with no flavor kind of sucks.

What would you do to make it better after fermentation has ceased? My first thought is malic acid since there is so little acidity. I would assume I boil some water, mix in the malic acid, and dump it into the carboy? I don't know if it will mix uniformly without stirring or shaking. But stirring or shaking would, I think, almost certainly introduce oxidation.

 

[bernardsmith]

Two things I might suggest - not necessarily good for this batch but ...
1. You might freeze the juice and then allow it to thaw collecting perhaps 1/3 - 1/2 of the total juice. That should increase the apple sugars/gallon and reduce the water so you get more concentrated flavor /gallon and a higher potential ABV (if the SG for the pressed apples was 1.050 this should be closer to 1.100.
2. A taste of yeast - counter-intuitively, perhaps, suggests that you pitched too few viable yeast cells. Forget what the internet suggests, you want to pitch about 1 pack for each gallon and certainly never less than a full unopened pack. There is no hint of yeast when you pitch enough yeast cells but there is always a taste and smell of yeast when the cell count is low and the yeast you pitch have to do too much work to ferment the sugars.
A third point for this batch: often as others have suggested, a cider that is too dry does not release enough apple flavors to please people. Backsweetening often brings the flavors forward but you don't need to use concentrate. You want to add sugars - and those sugars can come from your apples or from table sugar.
Attached to the issue of a dry cider might be your choice of yeast. Despite what some folk say on this forum , your choice of yeast plays an enormous role. Some yeasts mask flavors and some yeasts enhance flavors. I would look for a yeast that is known to enhance flavors - and a yeast that when confronted with apple juice does not squirt out pounds of H2S (hydrogen sulfide) as many beer yeasts tend to do according to the complaints those cider makers have about the rhino farts their yeast produce.

 

[Nick Z]

Mangrove Jack's cider yeast was used on the apple batch that was just tested. I'd say it did a good job, overall. It didn't leave a nasty solvent taste, which is what I was afraid of.

You are suggesting doing the apple jack thing, yes?

If I backsweeten I need to add sulfite and sorbate first, right? Otherwise fermentation will just kick back in?

I was under the impression the rhino farts largely dissipated over time. My latest batch was with Nottingham yeast and it smelled absolutely foul for quite some time. I suspect it will need quite a bit of time in secondary to clean that out.

The only other time I got rhino farts was my first batch (which was with cider apples and is still in secondary, undergoing malolactic fermentation (I hope). I think that was because I didn't add any yeast nutrient. After using yeast nutrient routinely I didn't get sulphur smell. Except with the Nottingham. I did a little research and later discovered that wasn't uncommon with that strain of yeast.

 

[bernardsmith]

Me? Not suggesting that you jack this cider. My suggestion was to concentrate the apple juice: say you pressed 3 gallons from the apples. If you freeze those 3 gallons and allow the frozen juice to gently thaw collecting the "first runnings" you can stop collecting while there is still 2 gallons of ice left and that single gallon will contain 100% of the sugars and 100 % of the flavors. You have concentrated the juice by freezing and not by cooking, so all the flavors are there and the juice does not taste cooked.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The flavor in cider comes from two or three things:

1. The apples.
2. The yeast.
3. (Optional) adjuncts.

The Apples
You need to start with a decent apple juice if you expect to get any apple flavor. Not all juices are equal. However you do NOT need the best of the best apples to make a quality dry cider.
Ferment at a low temperature to prevent the flavor from being blown out the airlock.
You can use a product like Booster Blanc to help preserve the flavor.
Some yeasts can unlock certain flavors in the apples (beta-glucosidase activity AKA enhances varietal character).
Using acid, tannins, and/or backsweetening are also basic ways to enhance or supplement the natural apple flavor.

The Yeast
There are three basic categories of yeast: neutral, varietal enhancing, and estery.
Natural/wild yeast and Brettanomyces are also good options for adding flavor (they are estery), and they produce a much more complex cider than dropping in a single strain.
In other words, if your juice is lacking intrinsic flavor, you may want to use an estery strain or possibly wild yeast.
Time on the lees can also enhance the cider flavor and body in various ways. Racking is hugely overrated and should only be used when needed to avoid oxygen exposure, or if your cider has wild yeast and you want to limit the funk.

Adjuncts
Adjuncts like oak, spices, herbs, flowers, hops, and/or fruit flavors can add dimension when used properly. A "bench trial" to find the optional amount to add is ideal for most adjuncts.

 

[Nick Z]

bernardsmith: Oh, duh. I'm sorry. I thought you meant to jack the finished cider, not the juice. That's a good idea, actually. I certainly have enough juice to do it with. I have about five gallons of store bought juice just hanging out. It's pretty good juice, actually. I'll have to make some room in the freezer to fit some of it in there.

 

[Nick Z]

The flavor in cider comes from two or three things:

1. The apples.
2. The yeast.
3. (Optional) adjuncts.

The Apples
You need to start with a decent apple juice if you expect to get any apple flavor. Not all juices are equal. However you do NOT need the best of the best apples to make a quality dry cider.
Ferment at a low temperature to prevent the flavor from being blown out the airlock.
You can use a product like Booster Blanc to help preserve the flavor.
Some yeasts can unlock certain flavors in the apples (beta-glucosidase activity AKA enhance varietal character).
Using acid, tannins, and/or backsweetening are also basic ways to enhance or supplement the natural apple flavor.

The Yeast
There are three basic categories of yeast: neutral, varietal enhancing, and estery.
Natural/wild yeast and Brettanomyces are also good options for adding flavor (they are estery), and they produce a much more complex cider than dropping in a single strain.
In other words, if your juice is lacking intrinsic flavor, you may want to use an estery strain.
Time on the lees can also enhance the cider flavor and body in various ways. Racking is hugely overrated and should only be used when needed to avoid oxygen exposure.

Adjuncts
Adjuncts like oak, spices, herbs, flowers, hops, and/or fruit flavors can add dimension when used properly. A "bench trial" to find the optional amount to add is ideal for most adjuncts.

Do you have recommendations for which apple cultivars to look for (please bear in mind that most apples are done for this year in my area) and which yeasts you like? So far I have tried Premier Cuvee, Mangrove Jack M02, Safcider, and most of the Lalvin yeasts at my home brew shop. I was going to try Red Star Cotes de Blanc next and perhaps White Labs dry english cider yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Apples:
I couldn't really point to toward anything specific. It's an agricultural product, so even the same cultivar in my area could be very different in your area with different growing conditions.
Similarly, packaged blends in stores will vary from lot to lot and year to year, so it might be worth giving a particular juice a second try later even if you didn't like it the first time.
You'll just have to experiment, and as I mentioned, there are ways to enhance and preserve the apple flavor even if the juice is somewhat weak.

As @bernardsmith mentioned, an ice cider is basically guaranteed to produce a very apple-forward wine if you want to go that route.

Yeast:
If I had to pick "one" yeast for making cider, it would be the natural wild yeast in the unpasteurized juice that I get.
Maybe there's a great commercial strain out there for me but I just haven't found it yet. My experiments are ongoing.
Here are some things in my fridge:
D47 - produces some rich tropical and spicy notes when left on the lees, especially with some bâtonnage and higher storage temps.
K1-V1116 - floral and fruity esters
58W3 - enhances varietal character and produces smokiness/spiciness.
BA11 - esters - orange blossom, pineapple, apricot, tropical fruit, cream, vanilla, spice.
R-HST - neutral, I use this for ice cider.

Cheers

 

[Nick Z]

Apples:
I couldn't really point to toward anything specific. It's an agricultural product, so even the same cultivar in my area could be very different in your area with different growing conditions.
Similarly, packaged blends in stores will vary from lot to lot and year to year, so it might be worth giving a particular juice a second try later even if you didn't like it the first time.
You'll just have to experiment, and as I mentioned, there are ways to enhance and preserve the apple flavor even if the juice is somewhat weak.

As @bernardsmith mentioned, an ice cider is basically guaranteed to produce a very apple-forward wine if you want to go that route.

Yeast:
If I had to pick "one" yeast for making cider, it would be the natural wild yeast in the unpasteurized juice that I get.
Maybe there's a great commercial strain out there for me but I just haven't found it yet. My experiments are ongoing.
Here are some things in my fridge:
D47 - produces some rich tropical and spicy notes when left on the lees, especially with some bâtonnage and higher storage temps.
K1-V1116 - floral and fruity esters
58W3 - enhances varietal character and produces smokiness/spiciness.
BA11 - esters - orange blossom, pineapple, apricot, tropical fruit, cream, vanilla, spice.
R-HST - neutral, I use this for ice cider.

Cheers

Thanks. I'll look at those yeasts. I already have a batch running with D47. I haven't used the K1 yeast yet but I have some. I also used a couple of the Vintner's Harvest yeasts that they suggested would work well for cider.

In fact each batch of cider has used a different yeast so I can test the flavors produced.

Some of the in progress batches used significant amounts of Newtown Pippin and Granny Smith juice. I have some hopes they might add a little more character to to the finished cider. And I have a two gallon batch that is currently fermenting with Nottingham yeast that has shredded quince in it. That might add some much needed tannin.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

Some of the in progress batches used significant amounts of Newtown Pippin and Granny Smith juice. I have some hopes they might add a little more character to to the finished cider. And I have a two gallon batch that is currently fermenting with Nottingham yeast that has shredded quince in it. That might add some much needed tannin.

These are good ideas. I have used Granny Smith's to add some flavor to store bought juice and it was helpful.

Also, Notthingham is my main cider yeast, usually works well. But it does not hurt to mix yeasts. I have one going now that has both Notthingham and Belle Saison yeasts in it. Don't know what I will get, but I am sure it will be drinkable, might even be outstanding

That is the fun of homebrewing. You can experiment and play around with ideas. 99% of the time you will get something enjoyable as long as you follow sound basics.

 

[Nick Z]

These are good ideas. I have used Granny Smith's to add some flavor to store bought juice and it was helpful.

Also, Notthingham is my main cider yeast, usually works well. But it does not hurt to mix yeasts. I have one going now that has both Notthingham and Belle Saison yeasts in it. Don't know what I will get, but I am sure it will be drinkable, might even be outstanding

That is the fun of homebrewing. You can experiment and play around with ideas. 99% of the time you will get something enjoyable as long as you follow sound basics.

Have you had an issue with Nottingham creating the sulphur smell? It was pretty bad when I used it. I'm hoping it goes away once I rack it and put it under an airlock. I did use yeast nutrients and yeast energizer.

 

[Bourniplus]

So what can I do to improve this stuff?

Bottle carb it.

I find my cider pretty boring when it's not carbed, but once it is, to me it "comes alive".

 

[Nick Z]

Bottle carb it.

I find my cider pretty boring when it's not carbed, but once it is, to me it "comes alive".

I stabilized the apple with campden and sorbate. So it can't carbonate. I intend to add sugar, concentrate, etc to it as learning experiments.

The perry, on the other hand, I am going to bottle carb.

 

[Nick Z]

I just racked the perry over to a liter flip top bottle with 6.24 grams of priming sugar. I haven't seen any new yeast activity yet (the bottle is clear). About how long should I wait before opening it up to test it? Two weeks? A month?

The temperature should be about 63-65 degrees where it is sitting.

 

[wasully]

I've got some similarly boring batches I'm sitting on. My doctoring plan is to split one of them into smaller batches, playing with tannin, sugar, and acid I prefer. Then if there's any left, I'll mix it to suit and pasteurize. If not, I have a formula for the next batch of boring juice I buy/press...because I know I won't wait several years for my trees to bear.

Do you have recommendations for which apple cultivars to look for (please bear in mind that most apples are done for this year in my area) and which yeasts you like? So far I have tried Premier Cuvee, Mangrove Jack M02, Safcider, and most of the Lalvin yeasts at my home brew shop. I was going to try Red Star Cotes de Blanc next and perhaps White Labs dry english cider yeast.

I did a batch of cotes de blanc that was nice. "false" sweetness(It was dry), tasted like an apple-y white wine. If I had bought a wine bottle of it for $15 I wouldn't have been disappointed. Aged terribly though, it's all stark acid now.

Well you'll probably need to wait until next fall, but you might get lucky.

I would search facebook marketplace/craigslist/etc(I don't know what else to list under 'etc' but maybe you know other sites for people selling stuff out of their home locally...) for 'apples' 'cider' 'pears' 'perry'(probably won't get any hits there. And then google the varieties, and check them against nurseries or https://www.orangepippintrees.com/search.aspx and see if they're listed as cider types. Some culinary types are(gold rush, cortland, jonathan, winesap, lots of other heirloom/vintage varieties.).

Late season apples are supposed to be the best for cider, so maybe you'll get lucky and somebody will have a spare bin or something.

 

[Nick Z]

Please let me know if you happen upon a good idea for additions. I have malic, ctric, tartaric acid, lactic and acid blend. I'm not sure what to use and how much. I was thinking of starting with a 1/4 teaspoon of acid blend on the 3/4 gallon batch to see how it goes.

 

[CKuhns]

Yes, acids, tannins, spices, sweetening and carbonation will certainly help. Experiment a bit with all of them. I would suggest that cider must be ballanced to be really good.

Another option not mentioned in the previous posts is to add whole ftuit. Freeze it before you add it and use a sanitized mesh bag or cheese cloth if your vessel can handle it. Makes racking and clean up real easy. If using a carboy or fermentation chamber with a small mouth just cut the fruit small enough before shoving it through the neck. Be sure to swirl it each day to keep the fruit moist.

The fruit brings some additional sugars and the fruit flavor kind of tricks the tongue. Use 1 to 2 pounds of any fruit desired and keep it in for 10 days or so. (Blackberries work really well and add a nice color too.)

 

[Nick Z]

Yes, acids, tannins, spices, sweetening and carbonation will certainly help. Experiment a bit with all of them. I would suggest that cider must be ballanced to be really good.

Another option not mentioned in the previous posts is to add whole ftuit. Freeze it before you add it and use a sanitized mesh bag or cheese cloth if your vessel can handle it. Makes racking and clean up real easy. If using a carboy or fermentation chamber with a small mouth just cut the fruit small enough before shoving it through the neck. Be sure to swirl it each day to keep the fruit moist.

The fruit brings some additional sugars and the fruit flavor kind of tricks the tongue. Use 1 to 2 pounds of any fruit desired and keep it in for 10 days or so. (Blackberries work really well and add a nice color too.)

I took some of the cider and added some frozen apple juice concentrate. I added too much and now it just tastes like apple juice. But at least I have a starting point. Next time I think I will split it into half pint jars and do different levels of acid, concentrate, etc.

I definitely need to push up the ABV. Not by a lot, but there is so little alcohol flavor you can't tell it's hard cider.

I have liquid tannin and added that. My only objection is that the tannin is dark purple, almost black. So it changes the color substantially. Are all tannins that color? Is powdered tannin lighter in color?

I have lots of other fruit on hand, including blackberries. I'll give some of those a shot. I have lots of boysenberries and raspberries I need to get rid of.

How do I physically add things like acid? Do I boil water, dissolve the powder, and dump that in? How do I make sure it will actually go evenly into solution throughout the cider? Stirring and shaking will probably introduce oxygen and disturb the lees.

 

[Maylar]

Are all tannins that color? Is powdered tannin lighter in color?

FT Tannin Blanc - for white wine, mead, cider:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/t...a9ycf4cP7wFwUEo3pVP6DHFXVbCR1VkIaAl1eEALw_wcB

 

[Nick Z]

FT Tannin Blanc - for white wine, mead, cider:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/t...a9ycf4cP7wFwUEo3pVP6DHFXVbCR1VkIaAl1eEALw_wcB

Interesting. I am allergic to all tree nuts so when I saw that it was from a "gall nut" I freaked out a little. But it isn't a nut. It's an insect induced gall. Which is weird tissue growth from insect damage.

What's fascinating is that people are intentionally creating and using galls. As a gardener I am familiar with galls and if I see a gall on one of my plants I'm going to freak out and try to get rid of the insect infestation that caused it.

 

[twd000]

that's pretty cool. I have dozens of huge red oak trees in my yard that drop galls every year. Would be fun to toss a handful of them into my next cider batch to extract some tannins from them

 

[CKuhns]

I just pull a little of the cider and disolve the acid in it then add it a bit at a time until i hit the profile i like.

 

[Nick Z]

I tasted a few of the other cider batches. Several are still undergoing fermentation and so aren't finished yet.

With the exception of the one batch made from real cider apples all but one was pretty watery and boring. The thing that surprised me was the lack of acidity. I think all of them are going to need some malic acid added. And probably tannins.

 

[Nick Z]

I forgot to add that my latest batch was done using Nottingham yeast. And one of the gallons smells like a latrine. It's quite awful and it's not going away. After listening to an interview with a fellow named Shea Comfort (aka the Yeast Whisperer) I am going to try a product called Reduless. I ordered some and when it gets here I am going to dose the cider with it. He suggested two weaker treatments so I will probably try that. I will report the results. And yes, I used yeast nutrients during fermentation

 

[bmd2k1]

Please let me know if you happen upon a good idea for additions. I have malic, ctric, tartaric acid, lactic and acid blend. I'm not sure what to use and how much. I was thinking of starting with a 1/4 teaspoon of acid blend on the 3/4 gallon batch to see how it goes.

I add 2t of acid blend per gal to all my ciders [emoji111]

Cheers...

 

[blasterooni]

I've been messing around with a variety of store bought juice as that is whats available to me at the moment. Gravenstein juice seems to work the best for a decent final product. I've been using hornindal kveik and getting really great results fermenting between 85F and 95F. I do add grape tannin to taste and landed on roughly 6+ grams to get it where I like it with e grav juice. With other store boughts, I often have to add acid and tannin, and sometimes FAJC. If I add FAJC, I keep it at no more than one can per 5 gallons, more than that, it tastes like Angry Orchard, too sweet, and even though the apples used in store boughts may not be interesting, they still have a quality and I aim to bring those out and preserve them as best as I can. Some commercial juice makers will list on their website what apples they use, while others may have the apples listed that they grow in their orchard and I sort of guess what might be in the juice (most likely a blend of what they are growing, and mostly they are desert apples, doubt they add any crab apples! I wonder if any orchards use crabs as pollenators)As far as acid additions, I first take a pH reading, and depending upon where it lands, I add malic acid, titrating until I hit my mark. I only rack once when I hit the ABV I want or fermentation stops. I haven't found any real good reason to run a malolactic fermentation with cider, especially with store bought since it often lacks acidity anyways. Plus, I don't have a good enough understanding of the whys and wherefores to mess around with it, and given that the juice I often use is lacking in acidity, it wouldn't do any good anyways.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I first take a pH reading, and depending upon where it lands, I add malic acid, titrating until I hit my mark.

You add acid targeting a particular pH?
This isn't the right way to adjust acidity. You should do it by taste or by targeting a particular acid level measured by titration (titratable acidity).
The way you're doing it could give very different results from batch to batch.

 

[wasully]

I wish I had gravenstein available from the store. I've had a couple nice commercial ciders from it.

I've seen several commercial cideries sell a manchurian crab cider, either to improve a dessert cider or as a single varietal. Columbia and Dolgo crabs, too. If you look at the apple listings some commercial ciderys publish, crabs aren't at all unusual.

 

[blasterooni]

You add acid targeting a particular pH?
This isn't the right way to adjust acidity. You should do it by taste or by targeting a particular acid level measured by titration (titratable acidity).
The way you're doing it could give very different results from batch to batch.

I used to target at specific ph but found it to be a bad technique leaving the cider all too acidic. Now my target is by flavor, adding only a bit each time, and when I get close I leave it since carbonation can give the appearance of elevated acidity (lower ph). Once I thought I had a lacto contamination, then it dawned on me after looking at my notes, I had added acid to those batches targeting a ph. Now, my ciders no longer have a "contamination"

 

[blasterooni]

I wish I had gravenstein available from the store. I've had a couple nice commercial ciders from it.

I've seen several commercial cideries sell a manchurian crab cider, either to improve a dessert cider or as a single varietal. Columbia and Dolgo crabs, too. If you look at the apple listings some commercial ciderys publish, crabs aren't at all unusual.

I found some crabapple trees last season, tiny little dudes, and added them to my cider. Now I know where to get them this year!

 

[RPh_Guy]

carbonation can give the appearance of elevated acidity (lower ph).

Carbonation does actually add acidity (carbonic acid).

 

[Nick Z]

The Gravenstein juice was from Whole Foods. If there is one in your area they may have it.

I'm currently getting ready to ferment the small amount of quince juice I have on hand. Once it's done, and depending on taste, I will use it to blend with ciders to add some tannin and acidity.

I'm going to scour my neighborhood for crab apple trees this year. With luck, I will find some.

I'm going to unfreeze and ferment the red delicious juice as well. I read that it can be used in blends for aroma.

The Reduless went into the smelly cider today. I will rack it on Friday and we will see what happens. Shea Comfort suggested using two lighter doses of it rather than one large dose. If that doesn't work I have some copper sulfate. I'll need to find directions for use though.

I doubt I will use Nottingham yeast again. It was tossing sulfur from the very beginning of fermentation and I did add nutrient at yeast pitch. Maybe it just needs a ton of nitrogen.

 

[Nick Z]

I racked the smelly cider. The Reduless did nothing, as far as I can tell. I suspect I need something stronger or that the hydrogen sulfide has gone into a form that copper can't treat. I put a sprinkle of copper sulfate, dissolved in water, into the cider. I know I was supposed to do a bench trial but that seemed like too much work for what is now 3/4 of a gallon of not very interesting cider.

If the copper sulfate does nothing I will look into using ascorbic acid, followed by copper.

At this point this batch has basically become an experimental/practice batch. I can either dump it or fiddle with it in the hopes of getting some experience and then dump it.

I won't be using Nottingham again for cider. Maybe I just got unlucky or did something wrong. But it isn't worth it.

On the other hand I am fermenting a beer with Nottingham right now and I am not running into any hydrogen sulfide/rotten egg aroma. I guess it helps to use an ale yeast in actual ale.

 

[Nick Z]

Holy cow. The copper sulfate worked. It worked almost instantaneously. I've never seen anything work that fast.

Because I didn't measure out the amount of copper I won't be serving it to other people and will eventually dump it. I used less than a pinch of copper sulfate but still, I don't want to give it to others. I will taste it myself. Right now I have decided to try and combine two experiments into one and using gelatin to clear the cider. The gelatin takes a couple of days, which is the same amount of time I am supposed to wait for the copper to drop out. I'll rack it in a few days and observe.

In this case I dissolved one gram of gelatin in two ounces of water and stirred it in. Same directions I've been using for beer. It's worked pretty well for beer. Maybe it works on cider.