It's got no flavor

[bmd2k1]

Please let me know if you happen upon a good idea for additions. I have malic, ctric, tartaric acid, lactic and acid blend. I'm not sure what to use and how much. I was thinking of starting with a 1/4 teaspoon of acid blend on the 3/4 gallon batch to see how it goes.

I add 2t of acid blend per gal to all my ciders [emoji111]

Cheers...

 

[blasterooni]

I've been messing around with a variety of store bought juice as that is whats available to me at the moment. Gravenstein juice seems to work the best for a decent final product. I've been using hornindal kveik and getting really great results fermenting between 85F and 95F. I do add grape tannin to taste and landed on roughly 6+ grams to get it where I like it with e grav juice. With other store boughts, I often have to add acid and tannin, and sometimes FAJC. If I add FAJC, I keep it at no more than one can per 5 gallons, more than that, it tastes like Angry Orchard, too sweet, and even though the apples used in store boughts may not be interesting, they still have a quality and I aim to bring those out and preserve them as best as I can. Some commercial juice makers will list on their website what apples they use, while others may have the apples listed that they grow in their orchard and I sort of guess what might be in the juice (most likely a blend of what they are growing, and mostly they are desert apples, doubt they add any crab apples! I wonder if any orchards use crabs as pollenators)As far as acid additions, I first take a pH reading, and depending upon where it lands, I add malic acid, titrating until I hit my mark. I only rack once when I hit the ABV I want or fermentation stops. I haven't found any real good reason to run a malolactic fermentation with cider, especially with store bought since it often lacks acidity anyways. Plus, I don't have a good enough understanding of the whys and wherefores to mess around with it, and given that the juice I often use is lacking in acidity, it wouldn't do any good anyways.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I first take a pH reading, and depending upon where it lands, I add malic acid, titrating until I hit my mark.

You add acid targeting a particular pH?
This isn't the right way to adjust acidity. You should do it by taste or by targeting a particular acid level measured by titration (titratable acidity).
The way you're doing it could give very different results from batch to batch.

 

[wasully]

I wish I had gravenstein available from the store. I've had a couple nice commercial ciders from it.

I've seen several commercial cideries sell a manchurian crab cider, either to improve a dessert cider or as a single varietal. Columbia and Dolgo crabs, too. If you look at the apple listings some commercial ciderys publish, crabs aren't at all unusual.

 

[blasterooni]

You add acid targeting a particular pH?
This isn't the right way to adjust acidity. You should do it by taste or by targeting a particular acid level measured by titration (titratable acidity).
The way you're doing it could give very different results from batch to batch.

I used to target at specific ph but found it to be a bad technique leaving the cider all too acidic. Now my target is by flavor, adding only a bit each time, and when I get close I leave it since carbonation can give the appearance of elevated acidity (lower ph). Once I thought I had a lacto contamination, then it dawned on me after looking at my notes, I had added acid to those batches targeting a ph. Now, my ciders no longer have a "contamination"

 

[blasterooni]

I wish I had gravenstein available from the store. I've had a couple nice commercial ciders from it.

I've seen several commercial cideries sell a manchurian crab cider, either to improve a dessert cider or as a single varietal. Columbia and Dolgo crabs, too. If you look at the apple listings some commercial ciderys publish, crabs aren't at all unusual.

I found some crabapple trees last season, tiny little dudes, and added them to my cider. Now I know where to get them this year!

 

[RPh_Guy]

carbonation can give the appearance of elevated acidity (lower ph).

Carbonation does actually add acidity (carbonic acid).

 

[Nick Z]

The Gravenstein juice was from Whole Foods. If there is one in your area they may have it.

I'm currently getting ready to ferment the small amount of quince juice I have on hand. Once it's done, and depending on taste, I will use it to blend with ciders to add some tannin and acidity.

I'm going to scour my neighborhood for crab apple trees this year. With luck, I will find some.

I'm going to unfreeze and ferment the red delicious juice as well. I read that it can be used in blends for aroma.

The Reduless went into the smelly cider today. I will rack it on Friday and we will see what happens. Shea Comfort suggested using two lighter doses of it rather than one large dose. If that doesn't work I have some copper sulfate. I'll need to find directions for use though.

I doubt I will use Nottingham yeast again. It was tossing sulfur from the very beginning of fermentation and I did add nutrient at yeast pitch. Maybe it just needs a ton of nitrogen.

 

[Nick Z]

I racked the smelly cider. The Reduless did nothing, as far as I can tell. I suspect I need something stronger or that the hydrogen sulfide has gone into a form that copper can't treat. I put a sprinkle of copper sulfate, dissolved in water, into the cider. I know I was supposed to do a bench trial but that seemed like too much work for what is now 3/4 of a gallon of not very interesting cider.

If the copper sulfate does nothing I will look into using ascorbic acid, followed by copper.

At this point this batch has basically become an experimental/practice batch. I can either dump it or fiddle with it in the hopes of getting some experience and then dump it.

I won't be using Nottingham again for cider. Maybe I just got unlucky or did something wrong. But it isn't worth it.

On the other hand I am fermenting a beer with Nottingham right now and I am not running into any hydrogen sulfide/rotten egg aroma. I guess it helps to use an ale yeast in actual ale.

 

[Nick Z]

Holy cow. The copper sulfate worked. It worked almost instantaneously. I've never seen anything work that fast.

Because I didn't measure out the amount of copper I won't be serving it to other people and will eventually dump it. I used less than a pinch of copper sulfate but still, I don't want to give it to others. I will taste it myself. Right now I have decided to try and combine two experiments into one and using gelatin to clear the cider. The gelatin takes a couple of days, which is the same amount of time I am supposed to wait for the copper to drop out. I'll rack it in a few days and observe.

In this case I dissolved one gram of gelatin in two ounces of water and stirred it in. Same directions I've been using for beer. It's worked pretty well for beer. Maybe it works on cider.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Holy cow. The copper sulfate worked. It worked almost instantaneously. I've never seen anything work that fast.

Haha, that's why you should do a bench trial. It works fast and too much causes a horrible metallic taste, so it's important to get the dosage right.

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S also known as "sulfur" or rotten egg smell) is a common problem with cider (and wine and sometimes beer) so it's good to learn to avoid it or learn to remove it.

Reduless does work, but it's a very small amount of copper at the suggested dose, and doesn't work immediately, so it's best to use if the amount of H2S is pretty subtle and if you're not impatient *cough*... Multiple doses of Reduless may be needed if there a lot of H2S.

I buy copper sulfate as a 1% solution, which makes bench trials a little easier.

Because I didn't measure out the amount of copper I won't be serving it to other people and will eventually dump it.

If it doesn't taste metallic, it's fine.

 

[Nick Z]

Haha, that's why you should do a bench trial. It works fast and too much causes a horrible metallic taste, so it's important to get the dosage right.

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S also known as "sulfur" or rotten egg smell) is a common problem with cider (and wine and sometimes beer) so it's good to learn to avoid it or learn to remove it.

Reduless does work, but it's a very small amount of copper at the suggested dose, and doesn't work immediately, so it's best to use if the amount of H2S is pretty subtle and if you're not impatient *cough*... Multiple doses of Reduless may be needed if there a lot of H2S.

I buy copper sulfate as a 1% solution, which makes bench trials a little easier.

If it doesn't taste metallic, it's fine.

The sulfur smell was not at all subtle. It was overpowering.

I actually did do precisely as the directions stated with Reduless. I used the correct concentration, stirred it in, waited three days and racked. I even degassed the cider with my recently acquired "wine whip."

I was going to lower a penny into the cider and jiggle it around for a minute but I couldn't find a suitable implement. I have some old pennies (pre 1982) that are of the 95% copper composition.

I'm really starting to think there is something about quince that causes the H2S. I just pulled my quince juice and fermented it. This time with Montrachet/Premier Classique yeast. And I made sure to give it plenty of nitrogen. Boom. Sulfur smell out the wazoo. This smelly cider had shredded quince mixed in.

I looked around but couldn't find much. Quince is not a commonly juiced or fermented fruit. I thought perhaps it was the tannin levels of quince or the acidity but I think real cider apples and crabapples have high amounts of tannin and acid and I haven't seen anything (so far) that indicates those produce H2S.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I actually did do precisely as the directions stated with Reduless. I used the correct concentration, stirred it in, waited three days and racked. I even degassed the cider with my recently acquired "wine whip."

I wasn't questioning that. I was saying the recommended dose of Reduless only provides a small amount of copper. You undoubtedly added a much larger dose of copper with the CuSO4 that presumably could have been accomplished with repeat/larger doses of Reduless. The copper is the active ingredient, so the source isn't particularly important. (There's nothing faulty about Reduless is the point I'm trying to make. Although straight copper sulfite is a lot better for bench trials.)

Tannins and acid do not cause H2S. You might be on to something with the quince specifically, but I don't know what.

BTW all pennies are copper plated, so the year isn't important. Only the core of newer pennies is zinc. You can tell if a penny has an abnormally high amount of zinc in the plating because it will appear yellowish.

 

[Nick Z]

I wasn't questioning that. I was saying the recommended dose of Reduless only provides a small amount of copper. You undoubtedly added a much larger dose of copper with the CuSO4 that presumably could have been accomplished with repeat/larger doses of Reduless. The copper is the active ingredient, so the source isn't particularly important. (There's nothing faulty about Reduless is the point I'm trying to make. Although straight copper sulfite is a lot better for bench trials.)

Tannins and acid do not cause H2S. You might be on to something with the quince specifically, but I don't know what.

BTW all pennies are copper plated, so the year isn't important. Only the core of newer pennies is zinc. You can tell if a penny has an abnormally high amount of zinc in the plating because it will appear yellowish.

I wasn't trying to knock Reduless. I wouldn't consider this one dose attempt on one batch of cider to be indicative of the utility of the product. What I heard in the interview with Shea Comfort is that you should start with Reduless because it won't strip as much flavor as straight copper sulfate. If Reduless doesn't work turn to copper sulfate. If that doesn't work you need to use ascorbic acid to put the sulphur into a form that the copper can react with and then move back to copper sulfate. I got the impression that the more you had to do with the wine to get out of the H2S the more risk you ran of damaging the wine.

The quince thing is puzzling me. The quince were grown without the use of sulphur as a pesticide or any other chemicals (which is why the coddling moths got some of them). There may be some substance naturally present in quince that yeast don't like. Perhaps it screws up their uptake of nitrogen.

By the way: I got some of the BA11 yeast you suggested. I just pitched it into some Trader Joe's pink lady apple juice. I am curious as to how it will turn out. This will be my first use.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I got the impression that the more you had to do with the wine to get out of the H2S the more risk you ran of damaging the wine.

I'm not so sure that a correct (minimal necessary) amount of copper will harm a wine, but I agree that it's a lot better to prevent problems than having to fix them.
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will not harm the wine; it's commonly present in fruit, including apples.

By the way: I got some of the BA11 yeast you suggested. I just pitched it into some Trader Joe's pink lady apple juice. I am curious as to how it will turn out. This will be my first use.

Very cool, let us know! The description sounds too good to be true.
It has a high nutrient demand, so don't be stingy.

 

[Nick Z]

I'm not so sure that a correct (minimal necessary) amount of copper will harm a wine, but I agree that it's a lot better to prevent problems than having to fix them.
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will not harm the wine; it's commonly present in fruit, including apples.

Very cool, let us know! The description sounds too good to be true.
It has a high nutrient demand, so don't be stingy.

Yeah, I just read about the nutrients. This is a small test batch of half a gallon. I mixed in 1/4 teaspoon of Fermaid K. I may dump in some extra DAP as well. I pitched it about 12 hours ago and so far I am not seeing any activity. Hopefully I didn't screw up the pitching. I had to order the yeast online, I can't find it locally. So I am trying to use it sparingly. I did rehydrate with Goferm.

 

[Nick Z]

I think I got a bum packet of yeast from Morebeer. The BA11 is not coming to life. I've tried rehydrating twice. Nothing is happening. And yes, I used Goferm and the correct temperatures.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's a bummer.

 

[landwaster]

My two cents: read Cidermaker's Handbook. It's got great information on apple varieties, sugar levels, TA, PH, analysis, etc.

I get juice from a local farmer's market, unpasteurized. We ferment it dry, and sometimes add sugar and bottle to get sparkling. It's usually pretty bland so we add tannin and oak chips while it's aging, which helps a tad.

We did a test with several wine yeasts and White Labs English Cider. White Labs seemed to retain the most apple character, whereas the others ended up pretty much bland dry.

This upcoming year I'm hoping to get true cider varietals from an orchard in VA. That should make a big difference.

Our 2015 batch had sulfide issues. We used reduless, which seemed to work. However, I just opened one of our last bottles and it has an off odor and taste. My wife says it smells like pennies. I think it has a strange hint of cocktail sauce(?). My only guess is that it's either gone bad, or the reduless/copper has done something odd 5 years later.

 

[Nick Z]

My two cents: read Cidermaker's Handbook. It's got great information on apple varieties, sugar levels, TA, PH, analysis, etc.

I get juice from a local farmer's market, unpasteurized. We ferment it dry, and sometimes add sugar and bottle to get sparkling. It's usually pretty bland so we add tannin and oak chips while it's aging, which helps a tad.

We did a test with several wine yeasts and White Labs English Cider. White Labs seemed to retain the most apple character, whereas the others ended up pretty much bland dry.

This upcoming year I'm hoping to get true cider varietals from an orchard in VA. That should make a big difference.

Our 2015 batch had sulfide issues. We used reduless, which seemed to work. However, I just opened one of our last bottles and it has an off odor and taste. My wife says it smells like pennies. I think it has a strange hint of cocktail sauce(?). My only guess is that it's either gone bad, or the reduless/copper has done something odd 5 years later.

If you're referring to the New Cidermaker's Handbook by Claude Jolicoeur, I have it. I've read most of it. It was rather disappointing, actually. The author seems to make the assumption that the reader has ready access to cider apples. This is not the case in most places and home cider makers are usually stuck with juice from eating apples. This bites but it is the material most of us have to work with. So we'd better figure out what we can do to improve them.

 

[landwaster]

I wouldn't say that the Handbook is useless, since he provides targets for acid, ph, sugar, tannins, etc for a "typical" traditional cider, that are relevant no matter what apples you're using. Obviously these levels are different for the sweet cider juice that most of us use, but it gives a good baseline to compare against.

What region are you in? If you're interested in hard cider apples, I would do a little digging online. I'm in Pittsburgh and was able to track down an orchard in VA (4hrs away) and another in MI (6hrs away) that were willing to sell their juice to a hobbyist. There are a few farms closer to home that are starting to get into the hard cider business, but I haven't yet investigated whether they are keeping the apples just for themselves or are willing to sell.

 

[Nick Z]

Update: The 58W3 yeast are dead too. I bought the packets from More Beer and e-mailed them about the dead yeast. The packets themselves were from Cellar Science. It's too bad, as I haven't been able to find those yeast locally. Hopefully they have live replacement yeast. Not sure how they'd test that without opening the packets though. Their whole supply may be toast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Man that sucks.
I'm sure they'll make it right.

 

[Nick Z]

Man that sucks.
I'm sure they'll make it right.

Eh, it's just some yeast. Not the end of the world. You were recommending yeasts previously. Have you used the Vintner's Harvest ones? My local brew shops carry those.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I haven't, sorry.

 

[RPh_Guy]

58W3 - enhances varietal character and produces smokiness/spiciness.

I'm fermenting a Riesling at 57-58F with 58W3 that I got from MoreBeer... and it is amazing so far! It's really kicked up the natural fruity aroma and flavor (outstanding apricot and peach) and seems to have brought in some great citrus and floral notes as well.
Granted it's not finished yet, only about halfway through fermentation. I will drop the temperature at this point.

 

[Nick Z]

I'm fermenting a Riesling at 57-58F with 58W3 that I got from MoreBeer... and it is amazing so far! It's really kicked up the natural fruity aroma and flavor (outstanding apricot and peach) and seems to have brought in some great citrus and floral notes as well.
Granted it's not finished yet, only about halfway through fermentation. I will drop the temperature at this point.

My 58W3 batch is running now. But it started putting out rhino farts yesterday. I think it ran out of nitrogen. I gave it fermaid O and fermaid K at the start so I wasn't expecting that. I gave it some DAP and stirred and it isn't putting out hydrogen sulfide anymore, though that which was produced is probably still in there.

So you may want to watch it and give it some nutrients halfway through the fermentation. I didn't think this yeast had a high nutritional requirement so I was surprised. I gave the BA11 nutrients because I had read that it does have high nutrient requirements.

 

[RPh_Guy]

For most wines and ciders (mead is different) I try to follow the standard recommendations from Scott Labs: Add nutrients at the start of visible fermentation and again at the 1/3 sugar break. It's not good to add nutrients later in fermentation because the yeast won't necessarily use it and it can contribute off flavors.

58W3 has "medium" nitrogen requirement. It has produced a little bit of sulfide for me, possibly because I missed the second addition. I'm not worried about it.

 

[Nick Z]

For most wines and ciders (mead is different) I try to follow the standard recommendations from Scott Labs: Add nutrients at the start of visible fermentation and again at the 1/3 sugar break. It's not good to add nutrients later in fermentation because the yeast won't necessarily use it and it can contribute off flavors.

58W3 has "medium" nitrogen requirement. It has produced a little bit of sulfide for me, possibly because I missed the second addition. I'm not worried about it.

Do you think it will simply age out of yours? H2S is becoming the bane of my existence. It's happening a lot and it isn't going away.

The weather has been warming up here. And so the hallway where my ciders are fermenting is no longer around 63-64 degrees F. It's more like 68F now. I wonder if that is part of the problem.

But I am trying new yeasts and different yeasts will have different reactions.

MoreBeer replaced the yeast that was dead and the replacement yeast appear to be fine. I have half a gallon of Kirkland juice fermenting with 58W3 and another half gallon with BA11. I read BA11 had a higher nutrition requirement so I put in more nutrients. So far, I *think* I haven't gotten fart aromas from that BA11.

 

[RPh_Guy]

In my opinion, H2S is mostly about prevention.

When that fails, there's aeration, copper, and sometimes ascorbic acid. It certainly can be removed.

It's kind of fine line to walk because some strategies for preventing it and removing it can have negative impacts on the wine. I'll try to put together a more detailed article in the next couple weeks.

I've made lots of wines and ciders that had some H2S. It is frustrating, but usually it's gone away with no residual flavors.