Is 75% efficiency the norm?

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brewprint

brewprint

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I've now done 5 batches. My first I undershot SG by 10 points and the rest have been spot on for 75%. What could be done to achieve higher?

I don't really need to do higher just curious about how it could be done.
 
That is a good percentage. Better to care about consistency than a high number, but to increase you could get a finer crush (run grain through mill twice or tighten the roller gap), squeeze the bag like it owes you money to extract more wort, I've found stirring more often seems to help and be sure you are using a big bag (I started with those grain socks which were ok until I got more than 4 pounds of grain).

I'd be satisfied with 75% though!
 
brewprint said:
BIAB. Why I posted here :)
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whoops found post in the new post heading, didn't look at what forum it was.
in that case that excellent efficiency, they say 70-80.
i've only dont one 5g biab so far i got 86% but that more cause of simple recipe.
but what i did do was from suggestions online, after removed bag stuck in sanitized bucket on top of upside down colander, then before wort came to boil removed bag from bucket and poured all extra drippings back into pot.
 
The mills at the lhbs where I buy grains I have them run it through the mill 3 times. The first time was only twice but that may or may not be the reason that I undershot. When I put the grain in my temp was still at 160 and I think it killed some sugars. The FG was good at 1.012.

I have been stirring more. Once every 20 minutes or so and a really good stir before I raise the bag.

I can surely deal with 75%!
 
I've set my calculations to 75% and the gap on my local mill is 0.041". I stir every 20 minutes also and focus on batch to batch consistency.
 
I dunk in a half gallon of hot water after I drain and give it a good stir then drain again. I'm not positive how to calculate my efficiency. I just compare my brew boiled gravity to what my boil Gravity is under the hop tab on Brewers friend. Then adjust my efficiency till they match. 81-83% in my last three batches. I know this isn't very accurate. I've heard the gallon marks on the pot can be off. Really need to mark a spoon with small more accurate measurements.

Anyone have tips for marking a spoon with quarts? I was thinking drying some water red and dipping it in hoping it would leave a bit of a mark.
 
adamdillabo said:
I dunk in a half gallon of hot water after I drain and give it a good stir then drain again. I'm not positive how to calculate my efficiency. I just compare my brew boiled gravity to what my boil Gravity is under the hop tab on Brewers friend. Then adjust my efficiency till they match. 81-83% in my last three batches. I know this isn't very accurate. I've heard the gallon marks on the pot can be off. Really need to mark a spoon with small more accurate measurements.

Anyone have tips for marking a spoon with quarts? I was thinking drying some water red and dipping it in hoping it would leave a bit of a mark.
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To calculate my efficiency I just plug in the grains and say 75% on brewers friend. Then if my OG is correct I just figure it's 75%. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?
 
Efficiency calculations are based on

  • What is the theoretical 100% sugars content of the grain(s)
  • How much sugars have you extracted

The theoretical content is based on laboratory testing by the malter I suppose. (these are the gravity points per unit weight of grain)

How much sugars you extract requires an accurate reading of
  • volume at the correct temperature
  • gravity at the correct temperature

If you have the correct volume in your FV and the gravity is what you were targeting then sounds like you have the system dialed in well at your selected efficiency.
 
I'd be happy with 75%. I am struggling in the low 70's at the moment. I need to double crush to see if that helps.
 
I've been getting low-70s for most beers. I plug in 70% for my Beersmith recipes, but often gain a point or two in practice.

High gravity beers are another story, and efficiencies tend to be lower. I brewed a RIS and only hit about 60%.
 
masskrug said:
I'd be happy with 75%. I am struggling in the low 70's at the moment. I need to double crush to see if that helps.
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I don't double crush. I just add 7.5 gallons at the start and stir every 15-20 minutes really good to make sure the enzymes are interacting with their substrate and make sure I'm not dropping temp. You'd be SHOCKED what the temperature change is 10 minutes after you mash in and then again 20 minutes later in the middle of the mash vs. where you're thermometer may or may not be.
 
DurtyChemist said:
I don't double crush. I just add 7.5 gallons at the start and stir every 15-20 minutes really good to make sure the enzymes are interacting with their substrate and make sure I'm not dropping temp. You'd be SHOCKED what the temperature change is 10 minutes after you mash in and then again 20 minutes later in the middle of the mash vs. where you're thermometer may or may not be.
Click to expand...

Maybe I just didn't stir enough with my first batch. Oh well it doesn't cost anything extra for a triple crush.
 
brewprint said:
Maybe I just didn't stir enough with my first batch. Oh well it doesn't cost anything extra for a triple crush.
Click to expand...

True. I know my shop is good if I wanted to double crush but at 75% I'm happy with consistent brews. As long as you figure out the process that works for you I wouldn't worry about efficiency. Focus on consistency.
 
I am impressed with the efficiency of BIAB. I have been a typical AGB, and with a new baby, looking to simplify my brew day routine.
My first attempt at BIAB I got a lot higher efficiency.

I have always been consistently around 65% with a simple mash out in the cooler(no sparge).
I got 73% with my first BIAB. No squeezing, I just removed the bag from the kettle, put it in another kettle. Soaked it with the strike water. Waited 5 mins and let gravity drain the wort.

I can't explain why I had higher efficiency but this has turned out to be a nice surprise. I will definitely be doing BIAB for smaller 5 gal batches in the future!
 
gregblatz said:
I am impressed with the efficiency of BIAB. I have been a typical AGB, and with a new baby, looking to simplify my brew day routine.
My first attempt at BIAB I got a lot higher efficiency.

I have always been consistently around 65% with a simple mash out in the cooler(no sparge).
I got 73% with my first BIAB. No squeezing, I just removed the bag from the kettle, put it in another kettle. Soaked it with the strike water. Waited 5 mins and let gravity drain the wort.

I can't explain why I had higher efficiency but this has turned out to be a nice surprise. I will definitely be doing BIAB for smaller 5 gal batches in the future!
Click to expand...

This was a sparge even though it wasn't done like you would in a mash tun. That step alone can explain at least part of your increased efficiency. With my setup, I usually gain at least 5% by doing a pour over sparge.
 
gregblatz said:
I am impressed with the efficiency of BIAB. I have been a typical AGB, and with a new baby, looking to simplify my brew day routine.
My first attempt at BIAB I got a lot higher efficiency.

I have always been consistently around 65% with a simple mash out in the cooler(no sparge).
I got 73% with my first BIAB. No squeezing, I just removed the bag from the kettle, put it in another kettle. Soaked it with the strike water. Waited 5 mins and let gravity drain the wort.

I can't explain why I had higher efficiency but this has turned out to be a nice surprise. I will definitely be doing BIAB for smaller 5 gal batches in the future!
Click to expand...

You didn't batch sparge in the cooler but you did for BIAB. This as stated above is why you saw an increase. Think of it as washing a dish. If you clean it with soap then put it back on the stove you're going to get some funny tastes. If you rinse it once after you clean it with soap you'll removed probably half of those funny tastes and if you rinse it a second time you'll probably get rid of all the off tastes. Same concept doing a dunk sparge or a double batch sparge.
 
Vaguely standard. I tend to get around 72%. Maybe 70% on my >1.060 OG beers and closer to 75% on my <1.060OG beers. My 1.10 RIS recently came it around 63% (I had to add 10oz of DME to make up for the undershot), which I consider not bad for a 6 and 5 gallon pot for a double batch sparge and 15.5lbs of grain (~4 Gallon batch).

I only put my grain through the mill at my LHBS once. Double milling DOES help efficiency I've found, but generally only be maybe 2 points. The difference in cost between 72% and 74% just means adding maybe 4oz of base malt. The $.50 is well worth saving 5-10 minutes at my LHBS standing around milling my grains a second time.

I did just get a corona grill to mill my own and buy in bulk. With that I'll be setting the tolerances to "flour" and see what I get. I've heard a number of BiaBs with Corona mills getting >80% efficiency with very fine crushes. I certainly wouldn't mind higher efficiency, but not really at the expensive of spending a lot of time.
 
brewprint said:
I've now done 5 batches. My first I undershot SG by 10 points and the rest have been spot on for 75%. What could be done to achieve higher?

I don't really need to do higher just curious about how it could be done.
Click to expand...

Didn't read all the replies, but did anyone ask you which efficiency you're talking about? Brewhouse, conversion, something else?

Like other folks have said, a finer crush always helps. I've settled on a gap for my mill at 0.020. Normally get 80-85% brewhouse efficiency on all brews, but haven't done anything over 1.080.
 
A wise man once said "Higher efficiency not mean better beer". I wouldn't know the truth of that, the highest I've hit is 73% and that was for a pretty big barleywine. I'll be happy if it stays there. I'm curious about why people are concerned about efficiency, as long as it's reasonable. Other than saving a few bucks, of course...
 
TexasWine said:
Didn't read all the replies, but did anyone ask you which efficiency you're talking about? Brewhouse, conversion, something else?

Like other folks have said, a finer crush always helps. I've settled on a gap for my mill at 0.020. Normally get 80-85% brewhouse efficiency on all brews, but haven't done anything over 1.080.
Click to expand...

I don't think so.

I calculated my efficiency based on the grain amounts and the SG. I haven't looked to see what brew house efficiency is.
 
I typically get between 72-75% with a full volume, 1 hour mash, but lately I've done some overnight mashes that have been around 80%.
 
Gerry_P said:
A wise man once said "Higher efficiency not mean better beer". I wouldn't know the truth of that, the highest I've hit is 73% and that was for a pretty big barleywine. I'll be happy if it stays there. I'm curious about why people are concerned about efficiency, as long as it's reasonable. Other than saving a few bucks, of course...
Click to expand...

Shot in the dark, but I would guess, without knowing if this is completely wrong or not, that some of it could be flavor vs. color contribution. How much lovibond is contributed from a grain doesn't seem to depend on the brewhouse efficiency. However, I would think that the flavor contribution would be influenced by efficiency.

Anyway, pure guess. I don't know that it is necessarily going to matter all that much.
 
Well, I'm certainly not an AG guru or anything, so I'm just going by what I've read. The reasoning behind the "higher efficiency isn't necessarily better" philosophy is that as efficiency increases, you start extracting tannins that can negatively effect your beer's flavor. Then you read guys like Palmer saying how much richer their beer tastes when he does no-sparge but gets 10% lower efficiency than normal. Once you get your setup figured out and you're shooting for a certain gravity, it's just a matter of how much grain it takes to hit that number. As far as I know, nobody seems to think higher efficiency results in tastier beer. My theory is that higher efficiency is sought for 2 reasons: 1. Economy - you save a little $ since you use less grain to hit your target gravity, but mostly 2. Bragging rights. :D

Btw Azazel, I lived in PG/MoCo for 43 years before I moved south. I used to find myself in Sykesville from time to time. (Driving through, that is. Not as a resident of the state institution that's located there, although I did consider checking myself in sometimes.)
 
Gerry_P said:
A wise man once said "Higher efficiency not mean better beer". I wouldn't know the truth of that, the highest I've hit is 73% and that was for a pretty big barleywine. I'll be happy if it stays there. I'm curious about why people are concerned about efficiency, as long as it's reasonable. Other than saving a few bucks, of course...
Click to expand...

Homebrewers (myself certainly included) always seem to want to build a better mousetrap. I think efficiency is noble pursuit - I mean if you could have 75% efficiency over 60% efficiency just by saying beetlejuice 3x we'd all do it. I know I've personally stepped back recently and decided that I need to consider what makes my brew day worse and eliminate it. For me:
  • One hour mash - KEEP - No need to rush my brew day
  • Squeezing my bag - DROP - Let gravity do the work and avoid the mess
  • Sparge - KEEP - I need some more water in my kettle anyway so dumping some warm water over my grains is no big deal
  • Mashout - DROP - Kind of a PITA worrying about how scorching, getting the full volume to 170o, etc
  • Double Mill - ?????? - Jury is still out on this for me... that's one point I'd like to test the effect of
I'm sure I can think of more, but the point is, efficiency is generally a good thing but for each extra action you have to take to achieve it, one should ask himself "is it worth it"
 
azazel1024 said:
Vaguely standard. I tend to get around 72%. Maybe 70% on my >1.060 OG beers and closer to 75% on my <1.060OG beers. My 1.10 RIS recently came it around 63% (I had to add 10oz of DME to make up for the undershot), which I consider not bad for a 6 and 5 gallon pot for a double batch sparge and 15.5lbs of grain (~4 Gallon batch).

I only put my grain through the mill at my LHBS once. Double milling DOES help efficiency I've found, but generally only be maybe 2 points. The difference in cost between 72% and 74% just means adding maybe 4oz of base malt. The $.50 is well worth saving 5-10 minutes at my LHBS standing around milling my grains a second time.

I did just get a corona grill to mill my own and buy in bulk. With that I'll be setting the tolerances to "flour" and see what I get. I've heard a number of BiaBs with Corona mills getting >80% efficiency with very fine crushes. I certainly wouldn't mind higher efficiency, but not really at the expensive of spending a lot of time.
Click to expand...

May I suggest that you don't set the mill so fine and suffer a little less efficiency with perhaps a better beer instead. I grind mine pretty fine and have noticed that I have trouble keeping the beer from fermenting to too low of a FG. I do get over 85% brewhouse efficiency but a less malty beer from doing so. May I also suggest that you mash for at least 30 minutes to extract all the possible flavor? Shorter mashes seem to convert the starches but seem to be missing the body and flavor that I expect.
 
The first thing is efficiency means nothing if you don't define it further. There are three "places" during the brewing process that one would typically measure efficiency.

1. Efficiency into the Boil - Percentage of the maximum extract present in the wort after mashing and removing the grain bag.
2. Efficiency of Ambient Wort - Percentage of maximum extract present after the boil has been completed and the wort is chilled.
3. Efficiency into Fermenter - Percentage of maximum extract present in wort transferred to the fermenter.

The critical thing to understand is with numbers 2 and 3 there are volume loses that change your efficiency calculation.
In number 2 there is the liquid that is boiled off which increases the gravity of your wort, additionally the volume of wort "shrinks" about 4% from boiling to ambient temp.
In number 3 there is an additional lose of volume due to any trub / wort left in the kettle or pump/siphon.


Now to get to your question. I do All-Grain BIAB with no sparge and I always measure my efficiency into the Boil and I typically get between 77% and 82% efficiency depending on the OG of the beer.
The reason I always measure at this point is that it allows me to measure just the efficiency of my mashing process, and isolate/analyze any changes I have made to my process.

If I tried to measure efficiency at points 2 or 3 I would have to deal with the temperature and humidity based changes to my boil off rate and worry about how much wort / trub I lose to get an accurate efficiency number.
 
Last edited:
Well I did a 5.5 gallon batch of yooper dead guy clone and got only 74%. I mashed higher so I'm hoping my gravity doesn't drop too much.

Back to the drawing board! Just kidding I'm satisfied with consistant results.

I base my efficiency only on what my SG is.
 
New to BIAB. I have made only a few batches thus far. My efficiency is hovering around the 75% mark. I am completely happy with that.
 
I rinse and dunk sparge after the mash. Last batch I put effort into getting as much out as possible and achieved 80% efficiency. The batch before that I got 75%.
 
At six BIAB batches in, I always set brew house efficiency to 75% in Brewer's Friend. I figured I'd start there since it was the default and then I could adjust from there. I've generally come in within a point or two of that percentage, though I'm still dialing in my process and coming to grips with the settings on my Barley Crusher.

However, on the beer I brewed a few days ago, I got 67% (1.051 v. 1.057), so l was a little miffed because it represented a change to what my general process was. It was only after some research that I realized it was almost certainly to do with the fact that nearly 40% of my grist was white wheat malt. I didn't realize that, for wheat, the crusher settings should be reduced, double-crushing would be in order, or more grain would need to be used. Lesson learned on that one.

In terms of wanting higher efficiency, for me it would be nice if I were to decide to do a big beer. I've only planned beers in the 1.055-1.063 range to this point, and with a 9-gallon pot things get a little crammed the bigger the beer gets. I usually sparge with a gallon of water, and while I'm not opposed to increasing the sparge amount of even reducing the batch size, I'd like to get a little better efficiency simply to reduce my mash volume for those possible bigger beers.
 
gregblatz said:
I can't explain why I had higher efficiency but this has turned out to be a nice surprise. I will definitely be doing BIAB for smaller 5 gal batches in the future!
Click to expand...

I was just wondering what your mash thickness was? I've noticed a 7% increase in my BIAB efficiency since I started double crushing my grains and using a thinner 90 minute mash.
 
I do BIAB partial-mashes, and yes, I find my efficiency is 75-78%
(And that includes double-milling any wheat malt with a protein rest)
I agree that mash thickness likely plays a part. I use 1.4 Q / lb to start, then eyeball it and titrate as needed; I am going for a 'thin oatmeal'- like consistency; such that I feel resistance when I stir, but its too thick to splash?

I second the Brewers Friend recommendation, too. Great online program. And free! (with max 5 recipe storage)

@rhys: and thanks for the nomenclature for what I am doing: dunk-sparging
 
14-15 lbs Belgian pale malt. I ddint weigh it myself so I'm not sure.
8 gallons of water.

7 gallons pre boil at 1.062

1lb sugar during boil and I ended up with 5.25ish gallons (bucket stops at 5 gallon marks) and I'm at 1.088 for 75% efficiency.

75 minute mash (I was bottling)
15 minute mash out at 164
90 minute boil.
 
brewprint said:
Maybe I just didn't stir enough with my first batch. Oh well it doesn't cost anything extra for a triple crush.
Click to expand...

For the recent batch I used the brews hop crush (0.040 I think) and stirred well at dough in, once around 30 minutes then the mash out to make sure I didn't burn anything.

I'm not convinced a double crush is needed to hit 75% and it might be more temperature control. I lost about 4 degrees from strike water to when I was done stirring and let the mash sit 10 minutes.
 
84I have been hovering around 73-84% with the lhbs single crush. I mash for about 75 min and maintain temp by putting mash tun in my oven.
 

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