Help fix my Czech

[dmtaylor]

I wish competitions would stop encouraging (requiring) judges to report scores close to one another. If one judge thinks my beer is a 40 and the other, a 26, that’s pretty useful feedback and I want to know!

You should really send a beer to at least three comps to worry that beer is not scoring well. You will be surprised and find a 29 pt beer in one comp and score 38 in another.

 

[day_trippr]

I wish competitions would stop encouraging (requiring) judges to report scores close to one another.

Encouraging judges to score close together implies judges know how each other are scoring, and that's unethical, full stop.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I do agree with what you all are saying about judges and competitions... this particular one was for the national homebrew competition, philly region. I typically don't enter a lot of competitions so this has also been a learning curve for me as far as how to handle the feedback and score sheets. Both these judges noted DMS, and me just learning the style figured I needed to improve, my neipa that I've brewed a ton of times scored pretty well. That said, yes, I should send the beer to other comps when I have the opportunity.

Next subject, I brewed this beer yesterday after work, was a late night but things went well, hit my target OG and the beer is sitting in the fermenter at 53f I was a tad short on volume due to boil rate and boil time, but I expected that, I'll need to change my boil off rate in beersmith when I boil hard like that. I set my temp at 213f and let it rip for 90 minutes.

 

[AlexKay]

Encouraging judges to score close together implies judges know how each other are scoring, and that's unethical, full stop.

Ethical or not, that’s how I’ve always seen it done. It is interesting to see how the sausage is made.

There is some value in the discussion, especially if the judges re-taste (“you’re right, there is a little diacetyl; I missed that first go-around.”)

In my opinion, the IDEAL procedure would be

• both (all) judges fill out the scoresheet, both scores and comments,
• judges talk through their impressions,
• if the scores are very far apart, and if resources permit (probably not common), an additional judge is called to fill out a scoresheet (also before talking to the other judges),
• the lead judge writes up any additional comments from the discussion in a separate section, but the original scoresheets are not changed, and
• a consensus score (which does not need to be the numerical average of the individual scores and can also reflect the discussion) is assigned.

Instead, what has happened EVERY time I’ve judged (a moderate but not large number of competitions) is

• the judges fill out their scoresheets,
• judges discuss,
• the competition organizer has set some maximum number of points that scores can differ by,
• if the scores are farther apart than this, the judges adjust their scores, and sometimes their comments (“I could take few point more off of mouthfeel…”), and
• a consensus score, which does not have to be the average but almost always is, is assigned.

 

[Bassman2003]

I do agree with what you all are saying about judges and competitions... this particular one was for the national homebrew competition, philly region. I typically don't enter a lot of competitions so this has also been a learning curve for me as far as how to handle the feedback and score sheets. Both these judges noted DMS, and me just learning the style figured I needed to improve, my neipa that I've brewed a ton of times scored pretty well. That said, yes, I should send the beer to other comps when I have the opportunity.

Next subject, I brewed this beer yesterday after work, was a late night but things went well, hit my target OG and the beer is sitting in the fermenter at 53f I was a tad short on volume due to boil rate and boil time, but I expected that, I'll need to change my boil off rate in beersmith when I boil hard like that. I set my temp at 213f and let it rip for 90 minutes.

Cool. Hope it turns out well. Sounds like it has a good start!

 

[Bassman2003]

Ethical or not, that’s how I’ve always seen it done. It is interesting to see how the sausage is made.

There is some value in the discussion, especially if the judges re-taste (“you’re right, there is a little diacetyl; I missed that first go-around.”)

In my opinion, the IDEAL procedure would be

• both (all) judges fill out the scoresheet, both scores and comments,
• judges talk through their impressions,
• if the scores are very far apart, and if resources permit (probably not common), an additional judge is called to fill out a scoresheet (also before talking to the other judges),
• the lead judge writes up any additional comments from the discussion in a separate section, but the original scoresheets are not changed, and
• a consensus score (which does not need to be the numerical average of the individual scores and can also reflect the discussion) is assigned.

Instead, what has happened EVERY time I’ve judged (a moderate but not large number of competitions) is

• the judges fill out their scoresheets,
• judges discuss,
• the competition organizer has set some maximum number of points that scores can differ by,
• if the scores are farther apart than this, the judges adjust their scores, and sometimes their comments (“I could take few point more off of mouthfeel…”), and
• a consensus score, which does not have to be the average but almost always is, is assigned.

Sounds utterly stupid. This and not trusting the palates of the judges has led me to never get involved in a competition. Unless a judge has been to the country of origin for the style and had the beer fresh, it is all guessing imho.

 

[hottpeper13]

Guys, he's using floor malted pils. You need to look at the COA to see if you need to do a protein rest. All the floor malted pils I've had is under modified. What I do is strike with a 1:1 qt/lb, then add boiling liquor to achieve 143* then pull first decoction. For a herms system after
the boiling liquor you could slowly ramp to 160* then mashout.
Adding boiling liquor brings your mash up to sacrification instantly, avoiding the head forming protein problem.
1 more point- if an AHA member go to 2017 NHC Czech Pils lecture by Annie Johnson. By the way my best rendition had a mash pH of 4.9, and I use Sterling instead of Sazz, I get a smoother bitterness,but the 4.9 pH might have some effect on this also.

 

[AlexKay]

Guys, he's using floor malted pils. You need to look at the COA to see if you need to do a protein rest. All the floor malted pils I've had is under modified.

Absolutely correct to go check the COA! Though my experience is the opposite: every malt I've ever checked, even the ones describing themselves as under-modified, have in fact been well modified. It is pretty hard (not impossible, but hard) to find actually under-modified malt.

In my (unsolicited) opinion, you shouldn't want to. Malting is better now than it used to be. Other than nostalgia (which, to be fair, is a valid reason), there isn't much point to go looking for malt that's been sub-optimally treated on purpose.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/weyermann-floor-malted-bohemian-pilsner-malt/

This is what I used. Not from this site but what my lhbs had on hand.

 

[Agent]

1 more point- if an AHA member go to 2017 NHC Czech Pils lecture by Annie Johnson.

I should review that one of these days. At the time I was equal amounts overwhelmed, inadequately experienced, and inebriated.

Man, I miss HomebrewCon.

 

[dmtaylor]

All the floor malted pils I've had is under modified.

No no no no no. Not in THIS century. It seems "under modified" has too many different definitions, which all seem to hinge on how badly the person brewing WANTS it to be "under modified".

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I don't see anything on weyerman site about under modified, or a COA ... what exactly am I looking for here? This is the info listed.

 

[hottpeper13]

I believe most fully modified malts have a FG dry basis of 81 so without more info you don't know for sure but I would do a 20 min protein rest then add the boiling liquoe.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'd be looking for Kolbach index. I don't see that there. But it's not undermodified, and in my experience a 20-minute rest will kill your body and head, so none of that data matters regardless.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I'd be looking for Kolbach index. I don't see that there. But it's not undermodified, and in my experience a 20-minute rest will kill your body and head, so none of that data matters regardless.

I'm learning here but this is what I found

Kolbach index 38% - 44%
Hartong index 34% - 43%

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I did not do a protein rest, just mashed at 152 for 3 hours while I was at work, then raised to 170 for mashout and fly sparged.

 

[AlexKay]

I'm learning here but this is what I found

Kolbach index 38% - 44%
Hartong index 34% - 43%

Kolbach 40% is pretty well modified, so if the malt is on the very low end of the spec, you might consider it slightly undermodified. If and might and slightly.

Kolbach index is more or less a measure of how well the malt's enzymes have chopped up the protein already (so the brewer doesn't have to.)

 

[dmtaylor]

Definition I have seen from a German guy is that undermodified is less than 33% Kolbach. We're nowhere near that.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...with-under-modified-malt.580062/#post-7531609

https://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3750.html

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Kolbach index is more or less a measure of how well the malt's enzymes have chopped up the protein already (so the brewer doesn't have to.)

Now this clears things up for, makes perfect sense.

 

[jdauria]

I do agree with what you all are saying about judges and competitions... this particular one was for the national homebrew competition, philly region. I typically don't enter a lot of competitions so this has also been a learning curve for me as far as how to handle the feedback and score sheets. Both these judges noted DMS, and me just learning the style figured I needed to improve, my neipa that I've brewed a ton of times scored pretty well. That said, yes, I should send the beer to other comps when I have the opportunity.

Next subject, I brewed this beer yesterday after work, was a late night but things went well, hit my target OG and the beer is sitting in the fermenter at 53f I was a tad short on volume due to boil rate and boil time, but I expected that, I'll need to change my boil off rate in beersmith when I boil hard like that. I set my temp at 213f and let it rip for 90 minutes.

Ah...Philly regional...that explains a lot too...Philly had a ton of low scoring beers, judges were very stingy. I took a gold in Strong Euro Lagers with a Dunkles Bock that only scored a 34.5. . Taking first with a score in mid 30's is unusual for Nationals. My other beer, a Czech Amber took 3rd with a 35 in Euro Amber Lagers...those two tables average score for all the beers in those categories were 31.1 and 29.6 which is pretty low. A friend took 2nd with his D-bock that only scored 31.5 and his beer had won 5-6 golds in other comps and was scoring in the 40's. In the past, my beers that advanced out of Philly scored somewhere between 39 and 42. Meanwhile according to others, the KC regional was handing out 40+ scores like candy.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Wow, that makes me feel a little better.. I scored a 34 with my neipa which usually scores in the 40s but that beer still didn't place in Philly. I appreciate the insight on that.

 

[whovous]

Next subject, I brewed this beer yesterday after work, was a late night but things went well, hit my target OG and the beer is sitting in the fermenter at 53f I was a tad short on volume due to boil rate and boil time, but I expected that, I'll need to change my boil off rate in beersmith when I boil hard like that. I set my temp at 213f and let it rip for 90 minutes.

At the risk of sounding pedantic here, if you hit your OG but your volume was low, you didn't really hit your OG. You should be able to add water after the end of the boil to get your volume where it needs to be and still hit your OG. IOW, your OG should be high if your volume is low.

If I have this wrong, please correct me. I want to try my first lager soon, and hitting the numbers seems a lot more important for a lager than it does for the IPAs I keep doing over and over. I want to be sure I understand my objectives here.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

You are correct... but that's on me making adjustments in beersmith for this style and recipe.. still happy with the numbers.

 

[whovous]

Oh, absolutely. I should have added water to the beer I am drinking now, but winding up with a smaller amount of a tasty DIPA is not really a bad thing. I will fix it next time...

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Ok, so I'm getting ready to brew this again. The saaz and tettnang I have are pretty low on alpha acid like 2% and 2.2% I'd like to not have to use a bunch of hops to get it to the ibu level I'd like to achieve. So what would be a good bitting hop that has higher alpha acids and will fit the style? Maybe perle ??

 

[dmtaylor]

Ok, so I'm getting ready to brew this again. The saaz and tettnang I have are pretty low on alpha acid like 2% and 2.2% I'd like to not have to use a bunch of hops to get it to the ibu level I'd like to achieve. So what would be a good bitting hop that has higher alpha acids and will fit the style? Maybe perle ??

Magnum might be the ideal. It's related to traditional German hops.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Thanks, I was considering magnum also, but didn't put the relation together.

 

[norrismj]

You might try Mt. hood and or Sterling.