Grape flavor in German beer?

[Rob2010SS]

I seem to always pick up on this weird flavor every time I have a German Beer. To me, it's like a grape flavor. Not like wine grapes, but like grape candy. Any idea on what that is?

 

[KeizerBrewr]

Like, every German beer? Commercial and homebrew? Ale or lager? I have read that sometimes light Munich can give off a grape flavor for some reason. Methyl anthranilate is a grape ester, usually used to make grape flavored candy like Pixie Sticks. Other than that, not sure how it would get there, possibly yeast?

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't get artificial "purple candy" grape flavor in German lagers. I detect it as white grape, like Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. And I *LOVE* it!!

White grape = ethyl heptanoate. I wish I knew how to get it in my own beer. So far I have not been successful. I've done some digging and experimentation, trying to figure this out. I figure it has to do with one or more of the following variables:

* Authentic European pilsner malt
* German lager yeast selection
* Mash parameters (but probably not decoction)
* Fermentation parameters (the colder the better??)
* pH at various stages (mash, boil, fermentation)
* Sauergut (?? I don’t believe so)
* LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape)

I need to try WLP833 one of these days. I know I have picked up the white grape (ethyl heptanoate) in beers from friends who fermented with this yeast. But I haven’t seen this yeast around here locally the last few times I looked. Might just have to order it. Some say they get it from Wyeast 2565. I haven't used that one in a long while either.

More experiments are needed. We’ll get there, eventually, I hope. It would be great if somebody kind & generous could help to narrow down the variables. Somebody who knows what they are doing and can get this character time & time again, guaranteed. I can't.

 

[Bilsch]

I am fairly well convinced it's sauergut. Most breweries there maintain their own culture which are quite different in flavor from one to the other. Hofbrauhaus Freising beers, IMO, win the grapey contest but you have to get them fresh to really appreciate that quality because it fades fast.

 

[gunhaus]

I don't get artificial "purple candy" grape flavor in German lagers. I detect it as white grape, like Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. And I *LOVE* it!!

White grape = ethyl heptanoate. I wish I knew how to get it in my own beer. So far I have not been successful. I've done some digging and experimentation, trying to figure this out. I figure it has to do with one or more of the following variables:

* Authentic European pilsner malt
* German lager yeast selection
* Mash parameters (but probably not decoction)
* Fermentation parameters (the colder the better??)
* pH at various stages (mash, boil, fermentation)
* Sauergut (?? I don’t believe so)
* LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape)

I need to try WLP833 one of these days. I know I have picked up the white grape (ethyl heptanoate) in beers from friends who fermented with this yeast. But I haven’t seen this yeast around here locally the last few times I looked. Might just have to order it. Some say they get it from Wyeast 2565. I haven't used that one in a long while either.

More experiments are needed. We’ll get there, eventually, I hope. It would be great if somebody kind & generous could help to narrow down the variables. Somebody who knows what they are doing and can get this character time & time again, guaranteed. I can't.

I agree completely with the white grape and the loving it! Thing is I DO get it sporadically in my beers, and frustratingly I cannot isolate exactly why or what, nor can I repeat it at will The two beers I have experienced it in the most are an ordinary bitter, and an American Pale Ale, which share basically nothing in common as far as grain bill, yeast, hops, etc. And here only because i brew these two more than most others. I will be greatly interested in following what you discover Dave.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I concur with @Bilsch .... if you want repeatability, go down the sauergut road. Every batch that I have used Sauergut in lieu of lactic, I definitely get this character... a character that is prominent in the things I enjoy about fresh German lagers.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

Yes, I have heard WLP833 can give off grape esters. Haven't met a German beer I didn't like, now that you mention it, that white grape hint is something I didn't realize until now. It's good!

 

[BigEd]

I'm with Dave on this one. It's the malt, real German malt. I've gotten the flavor in some homebrews and tasted the subtle white grapiness in several German commercial brews. While my evidence is only anecdotal I say that pilsner malt is the most likely culprit. All the beers with it had German pilsner malt but there was a sure variance in the yeast strains.

 

[Rob2010SS]

So I’m not crazy! It’s there!! Phew!

Now for the hate I’m gonna get - I’m really not a fan. It’s kind of a turn-off for me with German beers. Not sure why I don’t like it but I don’t. To my palate it’s almost like it’s a flavor that doesn’t fit.

 

[camonick]

As soon as you guys figure it out and how to repeat it, I’d love to know too. There is another whole thread going about this flavor that has gone completely down the LODO hole and I’m in the camp that doesn’t think that’s where it’s coming from.

 

[Bilsch]

More experiments are needed. We’ll get there, eventually, I hope. It would be great if somebody kind & generous could help to narrow down the variables. Somebody who knows what they are doing and can get this character time & time again, guaranteed. I can't.

I guess what you guys are saying here is: you'd like input from 'anybody that can get this flavor time and again' except those LoDO characters because we don't want to go down that hole again.

Ok no problem, carry on.

 

[Deric]

Zero evidence but I'm convinced it's malt. I've tasted it in every lager I've brewed with German pilsner. I've also picked it up in a couple of IPAs brewed with 100%German pilsner malt.

FWIW - All the lagers I've brewed so far were with 34/70. The IPAs were both 100% German Pils and US-05. I just kegged a "German" pils fermented with Diamond, will be interesting to see if it has it too.

I went up to Chuckanut a month or so ago and picked it up in both their Pils and Kolsch.

 

[Franktalk]

I think it has to do with Weyermann pilsner. I have got the grape thing in light lagers and kolsches when I've used it. It is delightful!

 

[marc1]

I got this on a pils I made in 2019! But it took a couple months in the keg to show up. It was really weird.
My notes say:
"hop flavor changed to weird white wine like ~3-1/2 months after brew" and "use less late hops"

Avangard pils, Breiss Carapils, melanoidin in the mash, Edelweiss for bittering and Spalter Select for flavor additions, WLP803.

 

[hottpeper13]

Since covid I've become a super locavore and Proximity Malting is only a 17 min(all green lights) away, their the only malt I buy. The only beer i get a little grape on is my Kolsch with 2565 yeast.

 

[Bassman2003]

Folks taste many different flavors from different ingredients. The German malts might add something but I would think the employees at Weyermann would consider a grape flavor coming from their pilsner malt to be a mistake on their part. ? While grape may be a great part of German lager taste, the malt is made for many different styles and customers. Definitely deserves some research and experimentation.

There is no doubt that sauergut has a unique flavor and is pretty much unique to German brewing due to the reinh***bot. The substance is created for pH control but the breweries have learned to craft its flavors into their brands. I started learning about and making it a year or so ago. It is more than likely the source and I encourage anybody you likes German beer to try making some!

I have a video on it at my YouTube channel.

 

[Miraculix]

I never tasted grape in a bear. Am I just used to it?

 

[Biggz1313]

I don't get artificial "purple candy" grape flavor in German lagers. I detect it as white grape, like Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. And I *LOVE* it!!

White grape = ethyl heptanoate. I wish I knew how to get it in my own beer. So far I have not been successful. I've done some digging and experimentation, trying to figure this out. I figure it has to do with one or more of the following variables:

* Authentic European pilsner malt
* German lager yeast selection
* Mash parameters (but probably not decoction)
* Fermentation parameters (the colder the better??)
* pH at various stages (mash, boil, fermentation)
* Sauergut (?? I don’t believe so)
* LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape)

I need to try WLP833 one of these days. I know I have picked up the white grape (ethyl heptanoate) in beers from friends who fermented with this yeast. But I haven’t seen this yeast around here locally the last few times I looked. Might just have to order it. Some say they get it from Wyeast 2565. I haven't used that one in a long while either.

More experiments are needed. We’ll get there, eventually, I hope. It would be great if somebody kind & generous could help to narrow down the variables. Somebody who knows what they are doing and can get this character time & time again, guaranteed. I can't.

I agree completely with the white grape and the loving it! Thing is I DO get it sporadically in my beers, and frustratingly I cannot isolate exactly why or what, nor can I repeat it at will The two beers I have experienced it in the most are an ordinary bitter, and an American Pale Ale, which share basically nothing in common as far as grain bill, yeast, hops, etc. And here only because i brew these two more than most others. I will be greatly interested in following what you discover Dave.

Not sure if you've ever used it, but WLP029 Kolsch strain throws these flavors big time if you ferment at the high end of the temp range. I've brewed a kolsch twice and this yeast nails that "white grape" flavor. Give it a shot!

 

[bierhaus15]

It's ethyl heptanoate, typically found in lager fermentation (often at warmer temps when under pressure). It is yeast strain dependent and there are some precursors for it in very lightly kilned malt, hence why it comes up in helles so often.

 

[monkeymath]

I never tasted grape in a bear. Am I just used to it?

When you've grown up eating German bears, you might not pick it up distinctively.

 

[Miraculix]

When you've grown up eating German bears, you might not pick it up distinctively.

I'm afraid we are not as wild in Germany as people might think we are. I must admit, we do not eat bears any more.

Somebody said that times were easier back in the days when one used to drink from the skull of one's enemies. I guess eating bears goes into the same direction.

 

[jdauria]

Want to say it's definitely from the sauergut and the LoDo site is big on that being the "it factor" in German lagers along with the whole low oxygen process.

 

[gunhaus]

I can understand if this were exclusively a lager question. But as i said earlier in this thread, I have experienced this on and off in both an ordinary Bitter, and an APA. Neither of which have lager yeast believe me! They also did not include sauergut, and did not ferment in the church of LODO. They are generally mashed cooler to increase perception if crispness. And often are fermented at the cooler end of the spectrum to limit esters a bit depending on the yeast. Still I get the white grape in certain batches. It is a welcome item when it comes! I would just like to sort out the how and why - but truly I WILL sleep just fine either way!

 

[Bassman2003]

Could be? A side by side brew would be advisable.

 

[Bilsch]

I can understand if this were exclusively a lager question. But as i said earlier in this thread, I have experienced this on and off in both an ordinary Bitter, and an APA. Neither of which have lager yeast believe me! They also did not include sauergut, and did not ferment in the church of LODO.

Why do people still feel the need to cast shade upon the Lodo adherents when we are all here for the same reason and should be working together?

Nobody from the LoDO contingent said anything about being exclusive to lagers but simply sauergut which is lactobacillus fermented sour wort. The wort for which is made from grain. German grain. The same grains that others here are proposing is the source of the flavor. Could it be that the organism in the grain that we use to make the sauergut is the source for the grapey flavor and is active in both the mashes (or maltings) of the folks that get this note in their beers occasionally and those using sauergut who get these flavors all the time?

But hey I'm probably just wasting my time trying to help connect the dots since whatever the O2 cult has to say is irrelevant in this thread. Right?

 

[balrog]

I was going to make a small joke here about trying to use the Lutra Kveik which to me always gives a white grape flavor, but it's getting a little intense in here.

 

[AzOr]

Great timing in this thread-
I’m wondering if this is the same thing I describe as a pear ester. I only get it on lighter hopped lagers.
I’m wondering if it’s grain sweetness?
I really get loads of this flavor/ester when I drink Peters Brand Dutch lager. I’ve never gotten this in my home brews.
Most craft pilsners have a pretty high ibu, and I’m wondering if that covers up the grain or adjunct sweetness.

 

[gunhaus]

Why do people still feel the need to cast shade upon the Lodo adherents when we are all here for the same reason and should be working together?

Nobody from the LoDO contingent said anything about being exclusive to lagers but simply sauergut which is lactobacillus fermented sour wort. The wort for which is made from grain. German grain. The same grains that others here are proposing is the source of the flavor. Could it be that the organism in the grain that we use to make the sauergut is the source for the grapey flavor and is active in both the mashes (or maltings) of the folks that get this note in their beers occasionally and those using sauergut who get these flavors all the time?

But hey I'm probably just wasting my time trying to help connect the dots since whatever the O2 cult has to say is irrelevant in this thread. Right?

It could be that sauergut, and its lacto component is the source for the grape flavor, especially where those german grains come into play. But I have NOT been using German grains, nor sauergut, nor lager yeast in my ales So by my poor calculations that MIGHT mean that NONE of those particular items have one thing whatever to do with why the grape flavors are appearing in my ALES also. I think the reason that LoDO evangelicals get "shade" from time to time is that they are so often so busy at selling the scripture that they fail to see the question at hand.

 

[Bilsch]

I think the reason that LoDO evangelicals get "shade" from time to time is that they are so often so busy at selling the scripture that they fail to see the question at hand.

Let me see if I understand you correctly..
Your sides ideas and theories are fine but those from the LoDO crowd are just proselytizing and therefore of no value? Ignoring certain possibilities is quite the opposite of 'seeing' the question at hand.

P.S. You don't think that LAB and other micro organisms live on North American grain as well?

 

[dmtaylor]

I guess what you guys are saying here is: you'd like input from 'anybody that can get this flavor time and again' except those LoDO characters because we don't want to go down that hole again.

Ok no problem, carry on.

You already told us you had no problem. Carry on, we shall.