I seem to always pick up on this weird flavor every time I have a German Beer. To me, it's like a grape flavor. Not like wine grapes, but like grape candy. Any idea on what that is?
Grape flavor in German beer?
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Like, every German beer? Commercial and homebrew? Ale or lager? I have read that sometimes light Munich can give off a grape flavor for some reason. Methyl anthranilate is a grape ester, usually used to make grape flavored candy like Pixie Sticks. Other than that, not sure how it would get there, possibly yeast?
I don't get artificial "purple candy" grape flavor in German lagers. I detect it as white grape, like Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice. And I *LOVE* it!!
White grape = ethyl heptanoate. I wish I knew how to get it in my own beer. So far I have not been successful. I've done some digging and experimentation, trying to figure this out. I figure it has to do with one or more of the following variables:
* Authentic European pilsner malt
* German lager yeast selection
* Mash parameters (but probably not decoction)
* Fermentation parameters (the colder the better??)
* pH at various stages (mash, boil, fermentation)
* Sauergut (?? I don’t believe so)
* LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape)
I need to try WLP833 one of these days. I know I have picked up the white grape (ethyl heptanoate) in beers from friends who fermented with this yeast. But I haven’t seen this yeast around here locally the last few times I looked. Might just have to order it. Some say they get it from Wyeast 2565. I haven't used that one in a long while either.
More experiments are needed. We’ll get there, eventually, I hope. It would be great if somebody kind & generous could help to narrow down the variables. Somebody who knows what they are doing and can get this character time & time again, guaranteed. I can't.
White grape = ethyl heptanoate. I wish I knew how to get it in my own beer. So far I have not been successful. I've done some digging and experimentation, trying to figure this out. I figure it has to do with one or more of the following variables:
* Authentic European pilsner malt
* German lager yeast selection
* Mash parameters (but probably not decoction)
* Fermentation parameters (the colder the better??)
* pH at various stages (mash, boil, fermentation)
* Sauergut (?? I don’t believe so)
* LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape)
I need to try WLP833 one of these days. I know I have picked up the white grape (ethyl heptanoate) in beers from friends who fermented with this yeast. But I haven’t seen this yeast around here locally the last few times I looked. Might just have to order it. Some say they get it from Wyeast 2565. I haven't used that one in a long while either.
More experiments are needed. We’ll get there, eventually, I hope. It would be great if somebody kind & generous could help to narrow down the variables. Somebody who knows what they are doing and can get this character time & time again, guaranteed. I can't.
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Bilsch
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I am fairly well convinced it's sauergut. Most breweries there maintain their own culture which are quite different in flavor from one to the other. Hofbrauhaus Freising beers, IMO, win the grapey contest but you have to get them fresh to really appreciate that quality because it fades fast.
gunhaus
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I agree completely with the white grape and the loving it! Thing is I DO get it sporadically in my beers, and frustratingly I cannot isolate exactly why or what, nor can I repeat it at will The two beers I have experienced it in the most are an ordinary bitter, and an American Pale Ale, which share basically nothing in common as far as grain bill, yeast, hops, etc. And here only because i brew these two more than most others. I will be greatly interested in following what you discover Dave.
cyberbackpacker
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Yes, I have heard WLP833 can give off grape esters. Haven't met a German beer I didn't like, now that you mention it, that white grape hint is something I didn't realize until now. It's good!
I'm with Dave on this one. It's the malt, real German malt. I've gotten the flavor in some homebrews and tasted the subtle white grapiness in several German commercial brews. While my evidence is only anecdotal I say that pilsner malt is the most likely culprit. All the beers with it had German pilsner malt but there was a sure variance in the yeast strains.
OP
OP
So I’m not crazy! It’s there!! Phew!
Now for the hate I’m gonna get - I’m really not a fan. It’s kind of a turn-off for me with German beers. Not sure why I don’t like it but I don’t. To my palate it’s almost like it’s a flavor that doesn’t fit.
Now for the hate I’m gonna get - I’m really not a fan. It’s kind of a turn-off for me with German beers. Not sure why I don’t like it but I don’t. To my palate it’s almost like it’s a flavor that doesn’t fit.
As soon as you guys figure it out and how to repeat it, I’d love to know too. There is another whole thread going about this flavor that has gone completely down the LODO hole and I’m in the camp that doesn’t think that’s where it’s coming from.
Bilsch
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I guess what you guys are saying here is: you'd like input from 'anybody that can get this flavor time and again' except those LoDO characters because we don't want to go down that hole again.
Ok no problem, carry on.
Zero evidence but I'm convinced it's malt. I've tasted it in every lager I've brewed with German pilsner. I've also picked it up in a couple of IPAs brewed with 100%German pilsner malt.
FWIW - All the lagers I've brewed so far were with 34/70. The IPAs were both 100% German Pils and US-05. I just kegged a "German" pils fermented with Diamond, will be interesting to see if it has it too.
I went up to Chuckanut a month or so ago and picked it up in both their Pils and Kolsch.
FWIW - All the lagers I've brewed so far were with 34/70. The IPAs were both 100% German Pils and US-05. I just kegged a "German" pils fermented with Diamond, will be interesting to see if it has it too.
I went up to Chuckanut a month or so ago and picked it up in both their Pils and Kolsch.
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I got this on a pils I made in 2019! But it took a couple months in the keg to show up. It was really weird.
My notes say:
"hop flavor changed to weird white wine like ~3-1/2 months after brew" and "use less late hops"
Avangard pils, Breiss Carapils, melanoidin in the mash, Edelweiss for bittering and Spalter Select for flavor additions, WLP803.
My notes say:
"hop flavor changed to weird white wine like ~3-1/2 months after brew" and "use less late hops"
Avangard pils, Breiss Carapils, melanoidin in the mash, Edelweiss for bittering and Spalter Select for flavor additions, WLP803.
Since covid I've become a super locavore and Proximity Malting is only a 17 min(all green lights) away, their the only malt I buy. The only beer i get a little grape on is my Kolsch with 2565 yeast.
Folks taste many different flavors from different ingredients. The German malts might add something but I would think the employees at Weyermann would consider a grape flavor coming from their pilsner malt to be a mistake on their part. ? While grape may be a great part of German lager taste, the malt is made for many different styles and customers. Definitely deserves some research and experimentation.
There is no doubt that sauergut has a unique flavor and is pretty much unique to German brewing due to the reinh***bot. The substance is created for pH control but the breweries have learned to craft its flavors into their brands. I started learning about and making it a year or so ago. It is more than likely the source and I encourage anybody you likes German beer to try making some!
I have a video on it at my YouTube channel.
There is no doubt that sauergut has a unique flavor and is pretty much unique to German brewing due to the reinh***bot. The substance is created for pH control but the breweries have learned to craft its flavors into their brands. I started learning about and making it a year or so ago. It is more than likely the source and I encourage anybody you likes German beer to try making some!
I have a video on it at my YouTube channel.
I never tasted grape in a bear. Am I just used to it?
Not sure if you've ever used it, but WLP029 Kolsch strain throws these flavors big time if you ferment at the high end of the temp range. I've brewed a kolsch twice and this yeast nails that "white grape" flavor. Give it a shot!
bierhaus15
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It's ethyl heptanoate, typically found in lager fermentation (often at warmer temps when under pressure). It is yeast strain dependent and there are some precursors for it in very lightly kilned malt, hence why it comes up in helles so often.
monkeymath
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When you've grown up eating German bears, you might not pick it up distinctively.
I'm afraid we are not as wild in Germany as people might think we are. I must admit, we do not eat bears any more.
Somebody said that times were easier back in the days when one used to drink from the skull of one's enemies. I guess eating bears goes into the same direction.
Want to say it's definitely from the sauergut and the LoDo site is big on that being the "it factor" in German lagers along with the whole low oxygen process.
gunhaus
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I can understand if this were exclusively a lager question. But as i said earlier in this thread, I have experienced this on and off in both an ordinary Bitter, and an APA. Neither of which have lager yeast believe me! They also did not include sauergut, and did not ferment in the church of LODO. They are generally mashed cooler to increase perception if crispness. And often are fermented at the cooler end of the spectrum to limit esters a bit depending on the yeast. Still I get the white grape in certain batches. It is a welcome item when it comes! I would just like to sort out the how and why - but truly I WILL sleep just fine either way!
Could be? A side by side brew would be advisable.
Bilsch
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Why do people still feel the need to cast shade upon the Lodo adherents when we are all here for the same reason and should be working together?
Nobody from the LoDO contingent said anything about being exclusive to lagers but simply sauergut which is lactobacillus fermented sour wort. The wort for which is made from grain. German grain. The same grains that others here are proposing is the source of the flavor. Could it be that the organism in the grain that we use to make the sauergut is the source for the grapey flavor and is active in both the mashes (or maltings) of the folks that get this note in their beers occasionally and those using sauergut who get these flavors all the time?
But hey I'm probably just wasting my time trying to help connect the dots since whatever the O2 cult has to say is irrelevant in this thread. Right?
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I was going to make a small joke here about trying to use the Lutra Kveik which to me always gives a white grape flavor, but it's getting a little intense in here.
Great timing in this thread-
I’m wondering if this is the same thing I describe as a pear ester. I only get it on lighter hopped lagers.
I’m wondering if it’s grain sweetness?
I really get loads of this flavor/ester when I drink Peters Brand Dutch lager. I’ve never gotten this in my home brews.
Most craft pilsners have a pretty high ibu, and I’m wondering if that covers up the grain or adjunct sweetness.
I’m wondering if this is the same thing I describe as a pear ester. I only get it on lighter hopped lagers.
I’m wondering if it’s grain sweetness?
I really get loads of this flavor/ester when I drink Peters Brand Dutch lager. I’ve never gotten this in my home brews.
Most craft pilsners have a pretty high ibu, and I’m wondering if that covers up the grain or adjunct sweetness.
gunhaus
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It could be that sauergut, and its lacto component is the source for the grape flavor, especially where those german grains come into play. But I have NOT been using German grains, nor sauergut, nor lager yeast in my ales So by my poor calculations that MIGHT mean that NONE of those particular items have one thing whatever to do with why the grape flavors are appearing in my ALES also. I think the reason that LoDO evangelicals get "shade" from time to time is that they are so often so busy at selling the scripture that they fail to see the question at hand.
Bilsch
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Let me see if I understand you correctly..
Your sides ideas and theories are fine but those from the LoDO crowd are just proselytizing and therefore of no value? Ignoring certain possibilities is quite the opposite of 'seeing' the question at hand.
P.S. You don't think that LAB and other micro organisms live on North American grain as well?
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You already told us you had no problem. Carry on, we shall.
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I have picked up on that flavor too but to me it tastes kinda like Smarties. Never noticed it in any of my homebrews.
gunhaus
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Again - as usual from the evangelicals we see zero observation and maximum indignation. I have NO THEORIES. I have offered NO SIDE IDEAS> I simply pointed out that I get these wonderful flavors in ales as well as lagers. And that I would be curious to see what others thought caused it. That DOES include whatn the low oxygen proponents have to say. My shade toward the LoDO component comes from the indignant way they seem to dictate that THEY have solved it all, and THEY have the answer, and THEY will lead us to the light and the glory of oxygen free spiritual bliss. And if we do not convert then we are little more than base heathens brewing swill.
Bilsch
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You guys were moving on with your grapethink thread and I was completely fine to stay on the sidelines until someone invariably invokes the name LoDO, then others cast some aspersions based on a guy from ancient history and the cycle repeats.
He'll never be ancient history when apostles continue to find it necessary to testify in a similar manner. Indeed the cycle repeats.
I'm not anti-LODO. I'm sure it does *something*. What exactly, I do not yet know. Most of us don't know, and maybe don't care to know. As such, we don't see a need to defend it or discuss it at nauseum. The acronym has become a trigger word and kiss of death for thousands of threads. So here we are, talking about it, AGAIN.....
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I suppose it might be detected as pear to some palates. To me, it is clearly grape. I do get pear from certain hops (Calypso), and from some Belgian yeasts. I pick up pear and grape differently. But, I suppose these are both esters, so maybe it's possible to confuse one for the other.
Too much of any hop will likely cover up the grape. Except where/meanwhile a hop like Nelson makes its own grape.
And um... I don't get Smarties in German bears.
Bilsch
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Then why do you guys keep bringing up LoDO? I mean we were talking about sauergut. He really must have gotten under your skin. Time to let all that go, don't you think?
Snowflake
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And um... I don't get Smarties in German bears.
Can you please turn it down there a notch? I am trying to follow the discussion about German bears. Thanks!
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" * LODO (I have very serious doubts, as friends skip this but still get grape) "
This is how it was "brought up". So not at all really. and yet here you are.
As far as the german grape flavor, I taste in in commercial german beers, and love it. I've gotten it in one marzen that I brewed. Warm fermented 34/70. I have temp control now, and haven't gotten that flavor again. I am going to be doing a fairly long run of german lagers in the next month though, so maybe something good will happen.
