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Jesus these last episodes are going to tear me apart. It has been so good and so bad at the same time.

Reading online I think a lot of people seem to be in general agreement, the overall movement of the plot is enjoyable, but how are getting there has been tough.

I think the cheesiest line maybe in Game of Thrones ever was said last night. "She's hateful, and so am I." I think we can start making the case that without the spine of the books to hold the character motivations etc. together, this has kind of gone off the rails. At this point the Jamie/Cersei thing just exhausts me, kill her don't kill her, die don't die, just don't speak anymore.

I did like the Bronn cameo and the fact that he refused to just fall in with the boys again and go on "one more adventure for the team!" That's not Bronn and at least they made him true to his character.

Euron Greyjoy and Qyburn, who would have ever thunk that these two would be Cersei's MVP's? Another dragon down without even breaking a sweat, check.

Also for the love of god I wanted Missandei to wrap her chained hands around Cersei and then push/pull whatever them both off that wall.

I am not sure how I feel about the show's treatment of Dany in this last season. Varys is correct at the end when he discusses how she speaks how a tyrant does. My destiny makes everything I do good and all my enemies bad. This is a dangerous thought and it seems like maybe we are going to see Dany go down in a classic arc.

She starts having been wronged by the world and builds herself up from nothing, but the sheer force of will is has taken to get her here has turned her into what she despises, a violent despot. Her ultimate lesson will be that when you play the Game, as Cersei said in season one "You win or you die," there is no morality attached to any of it.

Also as loyal member of team Bobby Baratheon, seeing Gendry get legitimized and get Storm's End to keep the name alive was cool fan-service for me. God knows there has been plenty of it to go around this season.

Clearly Varys is on team Jon. The question now remains, does Tyrion go with what he knows is true and we are all able to see (that Dany would not be the best potential ruler of Westeros) and help Jon Snow become king (Oh man the ladies would love Jon to be on the throne, his love dead again, reluctant ruler, just throwing that brooding look all over the place) or if his loyalty to Dany does not allow him to betray her.

Emilia Clarke is quoted as saying episode 5 will be even more intense than episode 3. I reckon we will have a battle episode and then a talking/resolution episode.

Can it just be Sunday?
 
I've been thinking Dany has been going mad for years now. So I'm not surprised.

I just can't see any story line for the throne working. Cersei keeping it wouldn't be a good story, or interesting. Dany marching and getting the throne isn't exciting either. Jon? That'd be a huge fan service and just not likely.

That doesn't really leave anybody else?
 
Bronn came out all gangster reminding the boys who they had been dealing with even told Jamie he was trash with 2 hands, he punched Tyrion and then what's double River Run a good scene leaving me wondering what happens with them all the next 2 episodes.

Dany is all about her power it seems and the whole incest thing yea she's not bothered, Varys indicated she may be an issue to deal with and I am hoping so she's a tyrant just as he said even if she does not know it.

Poor Gendry I guess he didn't have the skill set Podrick has

The whole funeral introduction was meh and looked to have been missing a ton of bodies

Sansa is the new Little Finger and I am finding it interesting her conversation with the Hound she did not let him control it one bit

How did the Dragons flying high in the sky miss an entire fleet of ships? And then 2 sniper shots on Rhaegal and then they cant hit Drogon at all, the drama was nice though

Missandei is gone, I was waiting for her to pull Cersei off that platform with her but nope and then I was shocked Cersei allowed them to all walk away she did not rain arrows down upon them or shoot at the grounded dragon .... really when has she started skipping opportunities to screw people over?

Overall it was good but could have been better at times and it seems there will without a doubt be unanswered questions after the next 2 episodes but hey at least Brienne got some even though that ended poorly
 
I don't know why I did this to myself but I read the leaks/spoilers for the last two episodes. I don't really care the show is about the journey and acting and production not the suspense for me, it's not an M Night Shamalamalayanian movie after all. Needless to say girlfriend was pissed because now we "can't talk about it" like I would be such an a$$hat that I would ruin it for her.
 
Yeah the social media account that gave up the details I read has been spot on with their leaks for eps 3-4. Without giving anything away I would say the details I read seem plausible as we sit after episode 4, but I take it with a grain of salt like anything.
 
Yesterday's far-fetched fan theory of the day:

While Drogon was AWOL from Mereen in season 4 (5?) she was laying a brood. People think for some reason now these theorized juvenile dragons will come into the mix.

The latest trailer/screenshots of ep 5 show Euron looking up at the clouds when something appears (presumably). His face looks (sort of?) shocked, and he has seen Drogon already. The reasoning is he is shocked because not one but many dragons descend from the clouds.

I have to be honest I know people are just spending every waking minute of these weeks coming up with theories but if all this hardship that has befallen Dany and her dragons is corrected with a stretch of a twist like this I will be upset. I think it is thin at best but who knows.
 
Yea that's a ridiculous theory but I am sure it made great click bait as many of them do like the little finger was a faceless man and Bran was the Night King. It would appear the next episode should be a war and the final episode the synopsis, it feels a bit rushed
 
Whew I am emotionally and physically drained from that one last night boys. IMO one of the best Game of Thrones (maybe television) episodes.

It will go down in my memory as the "We are who we thought they were" episode.

Dany has been told her whole life of her father and families' dark legacy in Westeros. She has fulfilled her part of that history.

Cersei for all her exterior hardness gives way to the realization that the only person she has in the world is Jamie. The words she told Ned in season one really are the lynchpin of the entire show, "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die."

Jon can't help but try and stop unnecessary carnage wherever he can. Including the clear path they are setting up where he will have to be the one to save the realm from Dany.

Sandor Clegane's final gift to Arya is to try and make her realize living your life in pursuit of revenge is not constructive was a nice moment before the fan service we have all been waiting for...

Cleganebowl was everything we wanted, the Hound did everything in his power and still had to force a draw to kill his brother. Gregor is unstoppable unless you launch him off a tower into a street of fire. The North remembers the Red Viper.

Tyrion is left with Varys' words haunting him while he walks through the ash.

I really like this episode.

I think after the Battle of Winterfell being a let down to some this battle really gave fans what they wanted. We got to see the character we have watched grow up from a naive pre-teen to a ruthless conqueror. We also get to see a battle scene shot really well, this is not filmed like a battle, it is filmed like a horror movie. We have heard tales throughout Game of Thrones of whole-sale slaughter but really never had to watch for over an hour while soliders, women, and children get butchered en masse.

There is a certain chilling realization when Dany starts burning the city. She spent her entire life trying to free the helpless from oppression, trying to move in the most moral way she possibly can through situations. In the end she is overwhelmed by the idea of sitting on the Iron Throne like many before her. Realizing that you can talk all you want about being a just and noble ruler does not change the fact that in order to rule you must conquer through fire and steel.

I laughed literally out loud at the Golden Companies' brief appearance. Welcome to Westeros boys.

Now we will see what Tyrion and Jon do, we can see where the show is leading us and I don't think they will make many more sharp turns, suprises, etc. but who knows.

Also tying the scene in the House of the Undying when Dany sees the Iron Throne and at the time we assume everything is covered in snow, but it's really ash. Pretty solid.

And to think we will end up thinking back on this epic episode and shrugging "Maybe he should have just banged his aunt."
 
A couple of thoughts.

Is is just me, or does every honorable thing Jon does blow up in his face? He renounces his claim to the throne and thousands of people die. I was watching Dany on her dragon with the battle won, then all of a sudden she loses it and goes full disaster mode. I said, "oh no." My wife was reading a book and asked what was going on. "everything's going to hell," I said. I knew it seemed way too easy to take Kings Landing.

Arya keeps seeing these scenes of people dead and dying. Its obviously affecting her. I'm thinking she might kill Dany. If so, how important is it that she actually heeded the Hound's advice?

With Kings Landing utterly destroyed, where does Dany try to rule from? Dragonstone? If Dany dies does Winterfell become the new home for the Throne? And what is going to happen to Tyrion when Dany finds out he helped his brother escape? There are a lot of loose ends to tie up. I'm going to miss this show.
 
Very good episode.

The mad King finally got his wish through the actions of his daughter. He planned to burn down Kings Landing with wildfire, his daughter did it with dragon-fire. The mad Queen has arrived. She spent 7+ seasons preaching about being the breaker of chains and ruling peacefully only to be overwhelmed by the power of the Iron Throne. She's a monster.

The Hound v. the Mountain finally happened. I think this scene was the best writing of season 8 so far. The Mountain, who has been zombie/machine-like betrays Cersei, kills Qyburn almost as an afterthought. Soon after the fight begins, the Hound realizes that fighting him is literally like fighting a Mountain. It takes an act of suicide to kill him as the brothers fall to their death in the fire that engulfs the Red Keep.

Cersei and Jaime's death together in the bowels of the Red Keep seemed appropriate. She died trying repeating the reoccurring theme of protecting her children at all cost. "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die."

Everything about the battle was great. Maybe the previous tactical stupidity that got Dragon#2 killed can be chalked up to simply not knowing anything about fighting from the sky. Daenerys seemed to have learned how to use her airborne advantage against ships.

Back in season 2 in Qarth in the House of the Undying when Daenerys is looking for her dragons she opens a door that leads to the Iron Throne room. Everything is covered in snow....or was it ash?

Someone has got to kill Daenerys, probably Jon or Arya. Jon insists he doesn't want to be king so I think Tyrion and Sansa re-marry and become king/queen.
 
I really liked the episode and can't wait for next week.

But after reading online, there's only dozens of us who didn't think the episode was garbage.
 
NickTheGreat said:
There's only dozens of us who didn't think the episode was garbage.
Click to expand...

It's sad to me that people try and say the entire show is crap just because of this season.

1) We all know this season has been rushed and they are sprinting to the finish line. I choose to enjoy the show instead of these internet lurkers who sit there and hate on everything just to be part of the poison on tweeter or whatever.

2) Anyone who is using this "Dany went from an innocent cherub to the Mad Queen in one episode" is just outing themselves as having no perspective or selective memory. Go watch when they nail the Masters of Mereen to posts and for miles down the road there are just people screaming. Yeah, quick transformation indeed. Also it annoys me because the real crux of Dany, her mission to rule Westeros to avenge her family, is what literally made it inevitable that she would have to kills thousands and thousands of people. She has been on this path the entire show they didn't just patch it together last week.

3) Sure we all wanted Cersei to die a violent, bloody death. But to me seeing her vulnerable and scared was the payoff.

I would challenge anyone who criticizes this season to come up with a more compelling season of television. unless they want to fight about another season of GoT, maybe a select couple season of Breaking Bad, The Sopranos etc. there are no shows doing anything even close to as ambitious or amazing as this show.

Also as a reader it boils my blood that people are now picking apart "the writing". These are the same people who would never in their lives be able to get off their phones long enough to read a 1,000 page book. You want detail and intrigue and minutiae? Pick up a book, because TV is not a medium that gives those things very easily. Yes, the writing is faster and more thin, because it isn't from a book. These are probably the same people who thought season one was "slow". Sometimes I really hate people, but reading the internet reactions just makes me happier every day that this is the only "social media" site I'm on. And at least here we can agree on drinking tasty beverages.
 
People's expectations for the show were so high it would have been impossible for the show to meet those expectations. I prefer to just watch and be entertained, and that's worked pretty well for me. You also have those people who subscribed to a certain Theory and are now upset and disappointed they don't get to say " I told you so!" I saw a lot of this during the NFL draft where people would decide who their team should pick, and when they didn't....pitchforks! Weeping and gnashing of teeth!
 
I watched it again last night and still feel it was lacking.

-The Mountain turned into Darth Vader
-Arya goes all that way just to be sent along back
-Cersei's death could have been so much better
-Euron vs Jamie made no sense and was pointless
-Dany goes over the edge well just because regardless of the build up to it no trigger
needed this time
-The Golden Company build up for what …..???
-Why now does The Hound confront his brother when he's had a dozen chances already once again logic avoided
- Drogon wrecks the city no issue at all from the scorpions, did they even fire a shot?


This was years of build up it could have been amazing but nope it's rushed and seems to lack the finesse the show once had this episode was supposed to be the one but it doesn't hold a candle to the Red Wedding in my opinion it was just OK
 
robdogj said:
I was pissed how Jamie & Cersi died in each others arms. Too lovey dovey for me. I wanted some bloodshed. I wanted Arya to cut Cersi's throat.
Click to expand...
I was hoping Tyrion would kill Cerci. I felt that he was the most deserving, she made his life hell ever since he was born. She squeezed his unit when he was born even.
 
Pretty Accurate:
atymI9D.jpg
 
I guess I am in the minority of not liking the episode that much. I loved everything involving Jamie, his story ended perfectly. While I was expecting Cersei to have a gruesome death, or to survive for judgement next episode, It was fitting they died in each others arms. Jon and Arya both played to their characters. The actual visuals of the battle and effects of the dragon were great, some of the best in the series.

That said I thought the writing was subpar.
Varys out in the open talking to Jon has never been his style.
The killing of the mountain was great until a dagger through the brain did not stop him, that was comical and totally through the seriousness of the fight out the window.
How easily Drogon took out the Iron fleet, all the scorpions at the city walls and blew out the gates was laughable. They were great weapons until it was the penultimate episode and it needed to be finished.
Dany going blood crazy was not built up to. She was no cherub as stated above and would gladly overkill her enemies, but the full on slaughter of innocents is against character. She had been the breaker of chains, friend to the common people. To burn everything especially after they had surrendered is just rushed and poorly written. Though I will say Emilia Clarke did her best acting of the series.

To make excuses and say but they were rushed is stupid. The showrunners wanted off the project and ended it early. HBO would have loved for another season. There was a 2 year gap between season 7 and 8. They were building an arc for a crazed Queen got 3/4 of the way there and said good enough. She should have been as good as Jamie or even Theon.
 
Andrew Hodgson said:
Also as a reader it boils my blood that people are now picking apart "the writing". These are the same people who would never in their lives be able to get off their phones long enough to read a 1,000 page book. You want detail and intrigue and minutiae? Pick up a book, because TV is not a medium that gives those things very easily. Yes, the writing is faster and more thin, because it isn't from a book. These are probably the same people who thought season one was "slow". Sometimes I really hate people, but reading the internet reactions just makes me happier every day that this is the only "social media" site I'm on. And at least here we can agree on drinking tasty beverages.
Click to expand...

??? So you think the people saying this has been rushed and the writing is failing the show are the ones who don't read the books? The people who thought season 1 was slow are thinking this season is rushed? I would wager it is the opposite. I would think more(not all) book readers will complain about the writing, pacing and character work than someone who thought season one was slow. That is closer to what I see with my friends in the divide between those who have and have not read the books.
 
I watched the first season, then read the books, then continued on with the series.

I can see both sides of the debate on how good this episode/season is when compared to the rest. I'm kind of on the fence but I am enjoying this season quite a bit.

Are they rushing it? yes, obviously. I'm not sure what the politics are for getting to the end this season and not taking another, though the producers and everybody on the show have dedicated 10 years of their lives and careers to this so at some point they want to move on.

Could the writing be better? Of course! Though the producers didn't sign on to have to write a couple seasons of the show, they signed on to create a masterpiece of cinema telling the story from George. The first couple seasons were perfect with following quite closely (with some things removed and changed for TV purposes). It was only whey they started to veer out of the canon that things started to get rushed. To tell the whole story comfortably and they way George would actually have wanted it they would probably have to have at least 1 maybe more season.

I'm holding out that the books will eventually get done and maybe will be even different (quite different) from how the show portrayed the ending and how we got there. His writing style pulls you in and how he did chapters from the Point of View of each character really helped you learn about how each of them think, not just how they act.

Overall I have been quite happy with how the show has been going, with still keeping you on your feet with not knowing what was going to happen. I think most people already have their minds made up about what will happen than when something doesn't go their way the are going to complain no matter what. And since they are kinda writing it as they go (well only a season ahead anyways and not years like the book) they may have made some choices/changes because there was already too much talk about one direction they were planning on taking. I'm sure they didn't want anybody to "guess" the ending or the road to get there, and so far they have done a good job at that.

So excited for sunday night, though bittersweet since it'll be the last one :) :-(
 
Galek said:
??? So you think the people saying this has been rushed and the writing is failing the show are the ones who don't read the books? The people who thought season 1 was slow are thinking this season is rushed? I would wager it is the opposite. I would think more(not all) book readers will complain about the writing, pacing and character work than someone who thought season one was slow. That is closer to what I see with my friends in the divide between those who have and have not read the books.
Click to expand...

My argument really is that people (if they read or not) want it to be fast at this point in the story even if they say the opposite, I mean realistically what more is there to tease out of these characters' personalities? People want to say the writing sucks because they disagree with the outcome, but instead they moan about it going too fast. People who have read the books (and/or watched the show) should understand the characters and not find the need for more characterization.

But I'm not some blind zealot, if anyone has a good example of a main character that would have benefited from them slowing down and continuing to tease out that character I am happy to listen, I just can't think of any out of the major ones, other than Euron Greyjoy.

I would argue that in Westerosi history Euron is probably the best personification of the Iron Born that there is, but in the show he just kind of shows up, kills his brother, and proceeds to just pursue Cersei and torment Theon. They could have flushed out his character a bit so people don't just see him as some kind of weird addition to the mix. As far as the show goes what would it necessarily matter if we understood the achievements of a character you are really supposed to hate, even if you respect him in some pragmatic way.

The Mountain/Hound: their entire relationship was leading up to this conflict, and they even throw in a bonus where the Hound passes on his knowledge and tells Arya not to throw her life away for revenge as he has done. This rounds out his arc nicely, what more is there to add?

Cersei/Jamie: They die together, the world literally crumbling around them. Their father, their children, their house is gone (except Tyrion). I would actually argue that Jamie was over written in this season. Knighting Brienne was a great thing, but then the weird romantic/then not sub-plot just confused his character, seemingly for many people. This is actually an example of over-writing this season. Cersei has pretty much just stood in a window and stared for two whole seasons but no one gripes about that because we know who she is. No need to develop her further.

John/Dany: I know some are arguing that Dany was a spot where they really needed more to show that she had jumped to violent bloodlust, but I would argue these people are not paying attention to all kinds of reg flags in previous episodes/seasons.

She has lost almost all of her primary advisers except Grey Worm (literally or she thinks they are all traitors), her only hope at love (in her mind) was dashed when Jon Snow wouldn't smash his aunt. She is isolated and on top of that lost another dragon, her child. She shifted all of her plans and lost a great many soldiers helping Jon and now feels betrayed by almost everyone around her. I would argue that anyone in similar circumstances would feel like they were backed into a corner, and what do cornered Targaryens do? Burn shet.

Jon is Jon, we have seen him develop so damn much I won't even entertain the idea that people want more for him this season.

Tyrion: Similar to Jon, we have seen his character evolve very closely, what more could we ask for with him? See that Dany is becoming a monster and help his sister defeat her? By the time he sees the truth it is too late.

Arya: We again have seen her go through so much already. Adding a sexual element to her character was strange, but she is really the only character they have even tried to round out this season, and people complained about all of it. Her struggle is internal, and as the Hound pointed out she is essentially hollow, filled only with revenge.

Sansa: Sansa's journey has been all about learning through pain. What more could they put this poor girl through that would have helped her arc this season?

Grey Worm: We see that he is in fact a human with emotions, then he experiences the most human thing possible, to lose a loved one, and reacts how he has to everything he whole life, with violence.


TL;DR name a character that you felt needed more characterization to fulfill their story this season that would have made it more entertaining/enjoyable for you.
 
I do think half the bitching about this season wouldn't be out there if they hadn't skipped a year. No way that a writing team of Shakespeare and Tom Clancy could have lived up to the hype most fans had in their minds.

I am in the "like" camp, and still don't quite understand how it's so rushed. They had a year to do this, and no edict that it could only be 6 episodes.

Do two 10 episode seasons and people would be okay.
 
I can understand why people say its rushed. The writers had to go without a book to follow, and they had a deadline in which they had to bring all these characters flung to all corners of the world together for the very end. I'm sure the books if they are ever finished will hash how we got to this point much more. However, some of the things people complain about it helps to think how it could happen, not how it can't. Like the scorpions, Dany learned, she dropped straight down on Euron because the Scorpions can't shoot straight up or change direction quickly. The first shots that killed a dragon the scorpions didn't require much adjustment.

Also, for Dany, they kept showing her, and they kept showing Cersei. Not only did Cersei just kill Missandei, but she betrayed her by not sending her army north. How many Dothraki might have been spared if Cersei had done what she promised? Would Jorah still be alive? Not to mention Cersei was married to Robert who tried to kill Dany and her brother most of her life. The Joker wasn't kidding when he said all insanity takes is a little push. There was plenty there to push her over the edge.
 
I was not critiquing the show, or even the season just the episode. I love the show and this season, that last episode just rang hollow. You look at any of the greatest shows ever and there are going to be episodes that don't really work well, doesn't mean the show is ruined. Besides how boring would it be if you only said good things about something.

Feels like the past ~2 season have been rushed and Dany making the decision to kill innocents is more pronounced because of it. Had she done it in bloodlust or the middle of battle would have been one thing but it was when she had stopped, heard the bells, saw that she was victorious, and decided screw it I am going to kill everyone that lost me.
 
It's not an unfair criticism and one many are making. Certainly there are examples of shows that have completely unraveled at the end essentially ruining the legacy of the show (Dexter).

I get it I just am very surprised that so many were horrified by the idea that Dany is the antagonist of this show at the end. I thought that these days the question of what is a good guy or a bad guy and right/wrong etc. has been done a lot in various mediums. I guess more people than I figured were team Dany. A ruthless Dothraki warlord who has already killed thousands in a worldwide quest for inter-generational revenge... I wonder how many would have cared about her brutal about-face if she was a he.

I am not against critique and many are well deserved but some of this sheyit is getting absurd (not your argument but the general insane internet conversations going on regarding this season).

For instance: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...ans-sign-petition-remake-season-8/3691075002/
 
I agree, I think the criticism here has been reasonable, not nearly as ridiculous as I have seen in other places. The show probably just started as a following of the book, then they ran out of that material, and had to get to a predetermined ending that was never meant to happen as fast as it has. They could probably have done two more seasons if they wanted to.

As for Dany, we don't really know what was going on in her mind. When she was sitting there and the bells were ringing...it was too easy, you knew something bad was going to happen, and it did. I could see her thinking the death of all those people wasn't even her issue. She said they don't love her, so she wanted to make them fear her. She could justify it by saying Cersei killed those people by using them as human shields. She clearly wasn't thinking reasonably, so thinking reasonably won't resolve it for viewers. Thats how I see it anyway. Maybe the last episode will shed some light on what lead her down that road.
 
Ohh. I don't have any social media accounts, was unaware of the extent people were talking. Now that I have read some of it I am glad I normally don't. (seriously people are cheering the burning of the city?) I thought you were speaking Hyberbole saying people described Dany as a Cherub before that episode.

It was clear she was going toward crazy town, and had the capacity for extreme violence. I just didn't like the way she finally crossed that line.

Compared to that loud (hopefully) minority who did think she was a cherub, we basically agree.
 
Yeah I find most fans are within the same realm of understanding and are enjoying the season with minor disagreements but of course the internet vocal minority are what is driving me up the wall. My own fault.
 
on a podcast i listen to they floated the idea that if they didn't kill the dragon from the ship, and in fact he died in battle at king's landing, then that would have been a much better trigger for her to just torch the whole town.. That would have been great justification and would have made many fans much more comfortable with her decision on when she did that.

Like if the bells were ringing but just one soldier decided to take one more scorpion shot since the dragons were just sitting on the wall and it went through his eye. That would have put her in a rage. That would have been the perfect way to make her go full on mad targaryen!
 
Yeah that really would have made a lot of sense. And Jonno and the boys look up to see the dragon falling into the street and see her start torching everything and then Grey Worm harpoons a dude and it's on, that really would have been smart.
 

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