Steven Barrett
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Tell us your stories.
Fill in the blank: I didn’t start making great beer until...
- Thread starter Steven Barrett
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great? i think you left out the beer part? not sure.....15 years, brewing 10 gallon batches once a week, and i still don't make great beer....but that was never my driving force, i have gotten the price down to about 92 cents for a 8% twelve pack though! (and i honestly do think my homebrew tastes better then MHL)
still more improvement here planned...but the beer dramatically improved once I waited until 65F to pitch yeast. ground water here is quite warm, so I can usually only practically chill to around 90F most of the year without wasting too much water.
After that point I put the entire fermenter in the fridge and come back in 18 hours or so to aerate and pitch.
Also the switch to BIAB, minimizing water additions (avoiding chalk), properly rehydrating yeast and switching to fermenting in my sealed bottling bucket (with spigot) helped a lot as well!
Some people will tell you fermenting in a bottling bucket is a no-no... but mine is a BSG (fully-gasketed) with high quality parts. I've never had a problem. It's not a fully closed xfer, but I'm in the keg in under 3 minutes without having to remove the lid (just crack it) and it was less than $30 for the entire fermenter setup. Pretty much the easiest fermenter to clean I've ever used. Way easier than siphoning.
A lot of my perception of enjoyment is *value*. If the beer is pretty good or even great, but was a pain to make... I may not do it again. And it may change the way I talk about it to being just "okay" cause it's not just about flavor to me but also price and effort.
After that point I put the entire fermenter in the fridge and come back in 18 hours or so to aerate and pitch.
Also the switch to BIAB, minimizing water additions (avoiding chalk), properly rehydrating yeast and switching to fermenting in my sealed bottling bucket (with spigot) helped a lot as well!
Some people will tell you fermenting in a bottling bucket is a no-no... but mine is a BSG (fully-gasketed) with high quality parts. I've never had a problem. It's not a fully closed xfer, but I'm in the keg in under 3 minutes without having to remove the lid (just crack it) and it was less than $30 for the entire fermenter setup. Pretty much the easiest fermenter to clean I've ever used. Way easier than siphoning.
A lot of my perception of enjoyment is *value*. If the beer is pretty good or even great, but was a pain to make... I may not do it again. And it may change the way I talk about it to being just "okay" cause it's not just about flavor to me but also price and effort.
I'm still trying to make great beer. Stay tuned.
The humility of the previous posters notwithstanding....
I think a lot of the beer I brew is terrific; excellent? Wonderful? Fabulous? Great?
I don't know what adjective fits, nor how to measure "great." I do have some evidence that my beer has good qualities; I like it, family members like it, friends want to pay me commercial prices for it, a local bar owner wants to sell it.
Does that make it "great?" For some people, maybe. Possibly you wouldn't like it.
*********
So how did I get here? While there are some basic things one needs to do in order to move beer from "meh" to "good," things like ferm temp control, yeast management, controlling mash temps, water composition, I think they're a given for the most part--except among those who don't read.
Instead, here is the twofold philosophy I followed when I learned how to brew:
First, I'd figure out what best practices are in home brewing, and I'd adopt as many as I could, while being open to the idea that things might change (such as the nearly mandatory use of a secondary fermenter, which today almost no experienced brewers use unless aging for a long time, freeing up a fermenter, or maybe using adjuncts).
Best practices: adopt them, or come as close as you can.
Second, I'd follow a process of continuous quality improvement. Every time I brew I try to do some thing better, more consistently, more accurately. When I'd discover a "best practice" I'd figure a way to incorporate it in my brewing, and then figure out how to make it work.
This philosophy has worked for me, near as I can tell. It's not a fast process (Mongoose, define "fast") but it works for me--not only in brewing, but in almost everything I've ever tried to master.
*********
There's a third element to the philosophy, but it's not necessarily a process element.
I think a lot of brewers fall into the style trap: they have to match a style guideline exactly, and that's their goal. They forget--or maybe never knew--that a/the major reason for brewing beer is to produce something you like that you can't buy commercially. Many here do, of course, have exactly that philosophy.
Early on, I was somewhat concerned about using competitions as a way to evaluate my beer. Several things moved me away from that. I've been part of small local competitions where the winner had identifiable off-flavors, and the judges didn't pick that up. My entry didn't have them--if you follow best practices guess what you tend not to have in your beer?--but the judges weren't really competent to judge the beer.
Another thing that moved me away was the guy who submitted two different entries to a competition--each entry was the same beer. One of the entries came in very high, won or second or something. A well-honored beer. The other entry was panned as bad.
Same beer. Different results. Tells me that relying on competitions to evaluate my beer is a crapshoot.
So I moved away from that. Today, I have a really good way to judge if someone likes my beer: do they have a second one? Lots of people will be complimentary of a beer but they won't have another. There are a lot of reasons you might not have a second--don't like the style, I'm driving, there's a lot to try and I want to try it all--but there's only one reason people have a second one.
And so--I use two criteria to judge my beer. First, do *I* like it? I've had a few "failed" beers that turned out fine, just not what I wanted. I have a friend who takes them to finish them off. But in the end, if I don't like it, I've found that others are usually unlikely to appreciate it as well.
Second, I use the "do they have another?" criterion. If people aren't refilling their glass, why? But often enough, they do refill. And again.
I was part of a homebrew tasting here about 18 months ago. I had my Darth Lager on tap, a sort of Schwarzbier thing I developed before I knew there was a thing called Schwarzbier. A woman came up, asked what I had, and I suggested Darth. It looks like a dark beer (well, it is dark), but it's crisp and finishes clean. She said "I don't like dark beers." I asked her to try a sample, tasting it with her nose and tongue, not her eyes.
She had a sip. Then another. Then she drained the sample and handed me the glass for more.
She came back for three more fills.
**************
You can use whatever criteria you want--competitions, throwdowns, whatever. The above are mine. You're welcome to adopt them in full or in part, or laugh derisively at what Mongoose33 sees as his reality.
I think a lot of the beer I brew is terrific; excellent? Wonderful? Fabulous? Great?
I don't know what adjective fits, nor how to measure "great." I do have some evidence that my beer has good qualities; I like it, family members like it, friends want to pay me commercial prices for it, a local bar owner wants to sell it.
Does that make it "great?" For some people, maybe. Possibly you wouldn't like it.
*********
So how did I get here? While there are some basic things one needs to do in order to move beer from "meh" to "good," things like ferm temp control, yeast management, controlling mash temps, water composition, I think they're a given for the most part--except among those who don't read.
Instead, here is the twofold philosophy I followed when I learned how to brew:
First, I'd figure out what best practices are in home brewing, and I'd adopt as many as I could, while being open to the idea that things might change (such as the nearly mandatory use of a secondary fermenter, which today almost no experienced brewers use unless aging for a long time, freeing up a fermenter, or maybe using adjuncts).
Best practices: adopt them, or come as close as you can.
Second, I'd follow a process of continuous quality improvement. Every time I brew I try to do some thing better, more consistently, more accurately. When I'd discover a "best practice" I'd figure a way to incorporate it in my brewing, and then figure out how to make it work.
This philosophy has worked for me, near as I can tell. It's not a fast process (Mongoose, define "fast"
) but it works for me--not only in brewing, but in almost everything I've ever tried to master.*********
There's a third element to the philosophy, but it's not necessarily a process element.
I think a lot of brewers fall into the style trap: they have to match a style guideline exactly, and that's their goal. They forget--or maybe never knew--that a/the major reason for brewing beer is to produce something you like that you can't buy commercially. Many here do, of course, have exactly that philosophy.
Early on, I was somewhat concerned about using competitions as a way to evaluate my beer. Several things moved me away from that. I've been part of small local competitions where the winner had identifiable off-flavors, and the judges didn't pick that up. My entry didn't have them--if you follow best practices guess what you tend not to have in your beer?--but the judges weren't really competent to judge the beer.
Another thing that moved me away was the guy who submitted two different entries to a competition--each entry was the same beer. One of the entries came in very high, won or second or something. A well-honored beer. The other entry was panned as bad.
Same beer. Different results. Tells me that relying on competitions to evaluate my beer is a crapshoot.
So I moved away from that. Today, I have a really good way to judge if someone likes my beer: do they have a second one? Lots of people will be complimentary of a beer but they won't have another. There are a lot of reasons you might not have a second--don't like the style, I'm driving, there's a lot to try and I want to try it all--but there's only one reason people have a second one.
And so--I use two criteria to judge my beer. First, do *I* like it? I've had a few "failed" beers that turned out fine, just not what I wanted. I have a friend who takes them to finish them off. But in the end, if I don't like it, I've found that others are usually unlikely to appreciate it as well.
Second, I use the "do they have another?" criterion. If people aren't refilling their glass, why? But often enough, they do refill. And again.
I was part of a homebrew tasting here about 18 months ago. I had my Darth Lager on tap, a sort of Schwarzbier thing I developed before I knew there was a thing called Schwarzbier. A woman came up, asked what I had, and I suggested Darth. It looks like a dark beer (well, it is dark), but it's crisp and finishes clean. She said "I don't like dark beers." I asked her to try a sample, tasting it with her nose and tongue, not her eyes.
She had a sip. Then another. Then she drained the sample and handed me the glass for more.
She came back for three more fills.
**************
You can use whatever criteria you want--competitions, throwdowns, whatever. The above are mine. You're welcome to adopt them in full or in part, or laugh derisively at what Mongoose33 sees as his reality.
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I got away from extract and went all-grain.
I'm sure some brewers make good beer that way, but I didn't. There were lots of process improvements at the same time too, but I'll stick with the grain as the difference.
I'm sure some brewers make good beer that way, but I didn't. There were lots of process improvements at the same time too, but I'll stick with the grain as the difference.
I started making better beer mainly with better attention to yeast. Making sure I had yeast ready to go to war from the very start but probably more important was controlled fermentation temperatures.. Buying a grain mill also was a milestone step. More so in mash efficiency however than in production of better beer.
RevA
Well-Known Member
Not sure mine is that great either, but when I started fermenting everything cooler the beer improved quite a bit.
That said I brew to keep me sane and to be able to drink what I want regardless of whether the small town liquor store stocks it, I kinda got tired of having to buy cases of the beer I like every time I go into the City.
That said I brew to keep me sane and to be able to drink what I want regardless of whether the small town liquor store stocks it, I kinda got tired of having to buy cases of the beer I like every time I go into the City.
It really depends on your definition of "great" My second batch, a Northern Brewer Patersbier extract kit to me was amazing. About 75% of my home brew batches I prefer over the average priced commercial craft beers - so that is good enough for me to call them "great"
But, I always strive to make my "great" beers greater.....
But, I always strive to make my "great" beers greater.....
OG-wan Kenobi
Arcane Artisanal Ales
Yup I spent 5 years messing around with extract and the results were never consistent sometimes good sometimes the twang then I did a small BIAB batch and never looked back. Now I love my beers (most of the time) and do 3-4 all grain batches a month and 90% of the beer I drink is my own vs 50/50 when I was doing extract.
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Consistency. Did same thing over and over again, making small process improvements along with that--introduce single changes and discard or keep as results dictate.
Measure the same, mill the same, heat the same, stir the same, make starters the same, pitch the same, ferment same temp control, bottle/rack/keg the same, wait the same time.
Things that work show improvement and consistency. Things that don't work, while consistent, are sometimes consistently bad. Don't keep those. (Clogged siphon filters, I am looking at you).
Measure the same, mill the same, heat the same, stir the same, make starters the same, pitch the same, ferment same temp control, bottle/rack/keg the same, wait the same time.
Things that work show improvement and consistency. Things that don't work, while consistent, are sometimes consistently bad. Don't keep those. (Clogged siphon filters, I am looking at you).
I'll ignore the brewing I did in the 90's as it was a long time ago. I restarted with all grain in 2015. My first batch was outstanding (in my opinion and also that my my uber serious craft beer friends). From the outset I followed these processes after asking a similar question and compiling what I determined were the key elements:
Water management. I did RO and added minerals to achieve the profile I wanted.
Ferm temp - used a freezer and inkbird to maintain a consistent ferm temp.
Yeast - I did a starter
Sanitaiton - this one goes without saying, but it's always worth repeating
Keg - I kegged mine and worked hard to avoid cold side oxidation
Water management. I did RO and added minerals to achieve the profile I wanted.
Ferm temp - used a freezer and inkbird to maintain a consistent ferm temp.
Yeast - I did a starter
Sanitaiton - this one goes without saying, but it's always worth repeating
Keg - I kegged mine and worked hard to avoid cold side oxidation
...I started using RO water.
+3 for going all grain. I brewed extract for years so throughout I already played w ferm temps, yeast and hop variety etc. So by the time I went all grain, I had worked out other variables.
Disclaimer***- I’m not claiming my beers are great. However, they are consistent and damn delicious to me.
Now, if I brew a batch that doesn’t turn out right, it’s because I’m experimenting with ingredients or got a crazy idea to do x to my batch.
I sometimes suffer from a condition known as “let’s throw this into the boil and see what happens”. I’m not always proud of the results but it has nothing to do with process.
Disclaimer***- I’m not claiming my beers are great. However, they are consistent and damn delicious to me.
Now, if I brew a batch that doesn’t turn out right, it’s because I’m experimenting with ingredients or got a crazy idea to do x to my batch.
I sometimes suffer from a condition known as “let’s throw this into the boil and see what happens”. I’m not always proud of the results but it has nothing to do with process.
Was going to say the same thing.
Are all my beers great? Hardly. But I'd say that many are better than a lot of commercial stuff out there, including small breweries.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
... I finished reading one of those newer (late 2010s) hombrewing books and followed that advice.
A "great" beer is a beer I enjoy drinking.
Places where "My Mileage Does Vary" (compared commonly suggested approaches):
- When I need a short brew day, I have recipes for enjoyable beer that I can brew with DME. Others who don't have the time for long brew days, are also finding that enjoyable beer can be made with 'extract'.
- For me, recipe software isn't needed to make enjoyable beer. The math may be tedious (and I'll use a spreadsheet to help), but the models are not complicated.
- For me, brewing with RO water, it appears that water chemistry software isn't needed either.
BandonBrewingCo
Well-Known Member
Stripped everything down to make life easier. The less equipment and complications I have, the less error prone I am. The more time I have to make sure everything is spotless and well sanitised. It also makes brewing more enjoyable (for me) which means I brew more often and practice makes perfect (see balrog's post above)!
What I actually did in detail:
It's not for everyone of course. But it does mean I always have a very good pale ale, wheat (sometimes with raspberries added at secondary, sometimes with orange peel and coriander added to the boil), blonde and something else to hand.
If I read this as a new brewer I would dismiss it as there's so much new stuff to try out. Only after many frustrations and long brew days can I appreciate the simplicity of it. I think the confidence I've acquired through repeatedly getting good results makes me a better brewer too, less prone to panic if something goes wrong for one thing.
tl;dr keep it simple, stupid!
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Edit: As a side note, be very wary about trying to do what breweries do and I'll tell you why with a food analogy:
When Dolmio make a jar of tomato sauce, it has to be the same as it was last year, yesterday and next year. Regardless of how that year's crop of tomatoes were compared to the previous. And I mean exactly the same. They have whole labs dedicated to ensure it.
When I make my tomato sauce, it can vary depending on my mood, that year's garlic harvest, etc. But it's still identifiable as my tomato sauce.
So when you hear how breweries throw out yeast because a single cell mutated, think about why that was. Would you do the same if your garlic was a little purpler this week? Dolmio might, but you don't need to. If your yeast/beer doesn't taste like ebola after a night of drinking Corona, it's most likely fine.
What I actually did in detail:
- Changed to full volume mash BIAB (was previously batch sparging with false bottom)
- Reusing yeast slurry (reduced lag time hugely noticeable). Voss is my house yeast and can do multiple styles, depending on the time of year and/or pitching temps.
- No more temp control. I pitch the yeast at around 20C and let it do it's own thing. I find trying to inhibit the yeast doesn't work for me. Also, one less complication to worry about.
- Simplified and changed my recipes to optimize my inventory. I have 25kg sacks of pale, pils and wheat malt. I have 2kg sacks of a light crystal and a dark one. I have 1kg of melanoidon, special b and something else I can't remember. I have a half kilo of cascade and a few different 100g bags of noble hops. I have one yeast slurry (voss) and an emergency pack of US-05. My inventory turnover is great and I always have everything I need to hand.
- I brew the same 4 or 5 beers all the time. That's loads of variety and helps with my prior bullet point. With every new order I'll add what's needed for one other experimental beer if I feel like it.
It's not for everyone of course. But it does mean I always have a very good pale ale, wheat (sometimes with raspberries added at secondary, sometimes with orange peel and coriander added to the boil), blonde and something else to hand.
If I read this as a new brewer I would dismiss it as there's so much new stuff to try out. Only after many frustrations and long brew days can I appreciate the simplicity of it. I think the confidence I've acquired through repeatedly getting good results makes me a better brewer too, less prone to panic if something goes wrong for one thing.
tl;dr keep it simple, stupid!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: As a side note, be very wary about trying to do what breweries do and I'll tell you why with a food analogy:
When Dolmio make a jar of tomato sauce, it has to be the same as it was last year, yesterday and next year. Regardless of how that year's crop of tomatoes were compared to the previous. And I mean exactly the same. They have whole labs dedicated to ensure it.
When I make my tomato sauce, it can vary depending on my mood, that year's garlic harvest, etc. But it's still identifiable as my tomato sauce.
So when you hear how breweries throw out yeast because a single cell mutated, think about why that was. Would you do the same if your garlic was a little purpler this week? Dolmio might, but you don't need to. If your yeast/beer doesn't taste like ebola after a night of drinking Corona, it's most likely fine.
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I love that Patersbier. Very different beer when brewed all-grain vs extract, but both versions are great beer.
FloppyKnockers
Well-Known Member
My first turning point to making great (to me) beer was late addition extract when I did extract beers. It totally got rid of that extract twang that plagues a lot of beginner brews. My second turning point was temperature control. It's mind-blowing what 5 degrees can do to the outcome of your beer. And of course the switch to all grain... game changer.
I think I started off making great beer, but I think my best beers have been when I threw the BJCP guide out the window. Of course, when I first started out, I was a stickler for details. I tend to cut a lot more corners now, and sometimes the beer suffers for it, but it all gets drank...
MDExile
Active Member
...when I stopped using Cascade hops in everything, because hops are hops, aren't they?
VApatriot
Well-Known Member
I didn't start making great beer until I did a lot of reading and learning from everybody on these forums.
BruceH
Mostly Retired
I'll second that the help from this forum gave me most of the info I needed to make a good beer. Once the basics were down pat the following really helped make good beer:
Temp control, all grain, and water chemistry. Water chemistry was the last thing and surprisingly more important than I though it would of been.
After the water had been tested it was adjusted with mineral additions and sour malt for my lagers. Suddenly my lagers were beyond just drinkable, they were good! It also explained why my darker beers always tasted better prior to knowing about mineral and ph adjustments.
Temp control, all grain, and water chemistry. Water chemistry was the last thing and surprisingly more important than I though it would of been.
After the water had been tested it was adjusted with mineral additions and sour malt for my lagers. Suddenly my lagers were beyond just drinkable, they were good! It also explained why my darker beers always tasted better prior to knowing about mineral and ph adjustments.
Extract and swamp cooler (live in the South) - twang and a half
Mini-mash and DME with swamp cooler - big meh burger
All grain with Coleman mash tun and cold side temp control - good beer
Above with step mashing by infusion - interesting good beer
RO with mineral additions per style - great beer
Above with step mashing by electric controller - interesting great beer
Engineer here, so process accuracy assumed, if you’re not doing that, god only knows...
Mini-mash and DME with swamp cooler - big meh burger
All grain with Coleman mash tun and cold side temp control - good beer
Above with step mashing by infusion - interesting good beer
RO with mineral additions per style - great beer
Above with step mashing by electric controller - interesting great beer
Engineer here, so process accuracy assumed, if you’re not doing that, god only knows...
