• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

Fast Souring - Modern Methods

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Still souring. I chucked together a quick graph of ph (blue, left axis) and gravity (yellow, right axis). I punched up the inkbird to 34C to get it right in the right range for the plantarum to do its thing, i will see how it goes from here. It's down to about 3.85pH right now, which would work well for this beer I think.

I measured the commercial example (colonial) last night and that came to 3.79pH so i'm going to be about right if it stays in the 3.8x range. I'll probably wait for it to finish fermenting, which won't take much longer, and then boil up a tea to get some proper isomerised IBU's into it.

Graph's a bit rough, so not using it to predict anything just yet, i'm gonna assume that the final gravity will be under 1.010

upload_2019-11-7_14-20-58.png
 
Last edited:
Interesting, thanks!
I measured the commercial example (colonial) last night and that came to 3.79pH
Keep in mind that while the pH is useful for monitoring the Lacto souring progress, it's not all that useful for comparing the level of sour taste between different beers.
 
Interesting, thanks!

Keep in mind that while the pH is useful for monitoring the Lacto souring progress, it's not all that useful for comparing the level of sour taste between different beers.

Indeed. I've been tasting as well, and its good at the moment taste wise. Maybe just needs to be a little bit more sour. If I'm doing this more, i'll probably invest in some kit to be able to titrate acidity to measure TA.
 

Going good so far. I bottled it a week or so ago, needs another week or two to carbonate properly. But was tasting good when I bottled. I ended up adding citric acid to it to boost the acidity in the end. I wasn't totally sure about doing that but after visiting a local brewery that specialises in sours/mixed cultures (Wildflower) and seeing how balanced a quite sour beer can be I decided that I needed more acid.

Next time i'll let the lacto go longer, and probably add some munich to get it a bit maltier but so far it's where I want it.
 
I've tried a couple kettle sours, and a fast sour, but I wasn't hugely impressed.
I've also done some long ones, and I think that those have a deeper, more complex flavor than the others, which tend, (IMO, and IME) to be more one-note sour.
It could be my taste, or that I did something wrong... but for now I'll stick to my 10 - 12 month aging.
 
I've tried a couple kettle sours, and a fast sour, but I wasn't hugely impressed.
I've also done some long ones, and I think that those have a deeper, more complex flavor than the others, which tend, (IMO, and IME) to be more one-note sour.
It could be my taste, or that I did something wrong... but for now I'll stick to my 10 - 12 month aging.
 
I ended up adding citric acid to it to boost the acidity in the end.
Did you test the pH it reached (before adding acid)?

Its best not to add hops before it reaches the desired sourness.
I've tried a couple kettle sours, and a fast sour, but I wasn't hugely impressed.
I've also done some long ones, and I think that those have a deeper, more complex flavor than the others, which tend, (IMO, and IME) to be more one-note sour.
It could be my taste, or that I did something wrong... but for now I'll stick to my 10 - 12 month aging.
Are you comparing these fast Lacto sours to mixed sours with Brett? It's not really a fair comparison.
Brettanomyces is amazing.

For your "fast sour", what was your recipe and process? The beers made with these suggested processes definitely aren't "one-note".
:mug:
 
Last edited:
Did you test the pH it reached (before adding acid)?

Its best not to add hops before it reaches the desired sourness.

:mug:

Yep, was about 3.97 on my pH meter, compared to the commercial example at about 3.8.

Got down to about 3.84-ish with some citric, and had good balance at that point.

Next time i'll probably aim for 3.7ish without the additions, maybe with some extra fruit.
 
I have a pack of WLP672 lacto brevis and wonder if you have used this? Would you know how many IBU's it can tolerate? Thanks.
 
I dont know how i didnt see this thread before. This thread is great and should be a sticky . I can say that I followed this method and have had to make batch after batch for people because they love it so much . Good stuff . Nice thread sour whisperer lol
 
I was really skeptical about doing a sour . Did some asking and a lot of reading here. My first sour turned out awesome although it did take a few days longer than a non-sour it was all worth it. Probably one of my best brews yet.
Pretty simple procedure- Brew as you would normally except leave the hops schedule out ,chill and pitch your Lacto Planarum(I used Goodbellys) and wait (up to) 48 hrs, return to a quick boil (15 minutes) and add hops. I chose the recommendation of a low hop amount(roughly 1/3 of what I normally would add to a non-sour brew ) so as not to overpower the souring. Chill and pitch yeast , ferment as usual, then racked over the fruit(blackberries ,lime zest and hibiscus). As soon as it was bottle conditioned and ready to drink I had 3 down like a fat kid on a see-saw.
Thanks to those who basically mentored me along the sour path.
 
I was really skeptical about doing a sour . Did some asking and a lot of reading here. My first sour turned out awesome although it did take a few days longer than a non-sour it was all worth it. Probably one of my best brews yet.
Pretty simple procedure- Brew as you would normally except leave the hops schedule out ,chill and pitch your Lacto Planarum(I used Goodbellys) and wait (up to) 48 hrs, return to a quick boil (15 minutes) and add hops. I chose the recommendation of a low hop amount(roughly 1/3 of what I normally would add to a non-sour brew ) so as not to overpower the souring. Chill and pitch yeast , ferment as usual, then racked over the fruit(blackberries ,lime zest and hibiscus). As soon as it was bottle conditioned and ready to drink I had 3 down like a fat kid on a see-saw.
Thanks to those who basically mentored me along the sour path.
That's basically the opposite approach of which is promoted here?!
 
That's basically the opposite approach of which is promoted here?!
depends on what method or approach you prefer. This happened to have worked perfectly for me.
theres a lot of other things promoted here but not for me(e.g.-BIAB, LODO,stainless steel conicals, excessive electronics pumps, etc )
 
depends on what method or approach you prefer. This happened to have worked perfectly for me.
theres a lot of other things promoted here but not for me(e.g.-BIAB, LODO,stainless steel conicals, excessive electronics pumps, etc )
I'm just talking about the souring process. You basically did a classic kettle sour.
 
Making sour beer doesn't need to be complicated!
These techniques are a good alternative to the antiquated kettle souring method.

Co-Souring Method:
  • Make unhopped wort. Chill as normal.
  • Pitch Lactobacillus plantarum and the yeast of your choice.
  • Ferment as normal, at 65°F or higher.
  • Optional/recommended add hops when it reaches the desired sourness. (Dry hops or hop tea)
  • Package as normal.
Post-Souring Method:
Same as co-souring, except pitch the Lactobacillus after 1-2 days of fermentation (or 8-12 hours if using kveik and fermenting hot).

Post-souring is designed to maximize yeast flavor. It's great if you want to use an estery yeast like WLP644 (Sacc Trois) for example, which adds a nice tropical pineapple & mango profile.


FAQ
Q: Won't the Lacto ruin my equipment or contaminate my other beers?
A: No. Normal cleaning and sanitation procedures easily remove L. plantarum. Furthermore, L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive and will not sour your clean beers with hops, even if you directly add it. These techniques actually have LESS risk overall of contamination compared to kettle souring.

Q: Where do I get L. plantarum?
A: Several sources are readily available in the US: Swanson's L. plantarum capsules can be purchased online. GoodBelly liquid probiotic and Renew Life Ultimate Flora are both widely available in stores. Many are now even keeping the Renew Life refrigerated, which is awesome. Lallemand offers pure L. plantarum as WildBrew Sour Pitch. Other yeast labs sell Lacto blends of L. plantarum mixed with other species, often L. brevis (use these blends at your own risk because they are more hop-tolerant).
Store the Lacto in the refrigerator. The dry capsules will last a very long time.

Q: Do I need to make a starter for the Lacto?
A: It's not needed, however if you use the post-souring process, I do recommend a starter.
Starter procedure: After chilling, drain about 200-500mL wort into a sanitized jar. Add the Lacto and a few grams of calcium carbonate. Cover and let sit at room temp. When pitching, decant it off of the calcium carbonate (you don't want the chalk in your beer).

Q: How much Lacto do I pitch?
A: Pitch rate isn't very important. Feel free to use 1-2 capsules or a few ounces of GoodBelly in 5 gallons.

Q: Won't it take months to sour?
A. No. L. plantarum sours quickly (within a couple days) anywhere in the range of 65-100°F. It will finish in the same timeframe as non-sour beer. I've gone from grain to packaging in 3 days.

Q: How long should I boil the wort?
A: Boiling is entirely optional since we don't need to isomerize alpha acids in hops. Mash temperature pasteurizes the wort.

Q: What amount of hops should I add?
A: Anywhere from 0.5 oz to 1 oz per 5 gallons adds a nice hop character (in my opinion) and completely inhibits further souring.

Q: Do the bacteria add flavor?
A: Generally, yes, depending on the source of L. plantarum you use. Frequently the Lacto contributes a nice lemony citrus tartness, notes of berry and melon, and possibly some slight funk. Adding hops after reaching desired sourness will reduce the funk complexity. The Renew Life blend probably adds more flavor than a single species culture and it also creates a more funky profile when used at high temperature (e.g. when souring with kveik at 95°F).

Q: Will it continue to sour if I don't add hops?
A: Yes, possibly, but Lacto's ability to produce acid is self-limiting. Normally this species finishes around pH 3.1-3.3.

Q: What is hop tea?
A: Boil the hops for 5-10 minutes in 300-500mL of chlorine-free water. Dump it into your batch. If you add it at bottling, strain through a hop sock. Added bitterness will be minimal.

Q: Do I need a pH meter?
A: Not really. If you're inclined to stop the souring before it finishes naturally, you can do it by taste.

Q: Do I need to pre-acidify the wort?
A: Nope!

Q: Should I pitch more yeast than normal, or add yeast at bottling?
A: Nope!

Q: Can I use yeast cake from a previous batch?
A: Only if there were absolutely no hops in the batch from which you harvested it.

Q: Will the beer benefit from aging?
A: Nope!

Q: Is this beer probiotic?
A: Yes!

Please share your experience with these techniques. Happy to answer any questions!
Cheers!
:mug:

I read on another thread that you usually boil after the mash but before adding yeast or lacto? How long do you boil for?

I started my sour hef yesterday. Going to add lacto later today (24 hrs after wlp300). I didn’t boil at all though. Probably bad for head retention right, but otherwise okay? I sanitized my chiller in the wort at 165 deg for 15 mins- hope this ok.
 
Last edited:
How long do you boil for?
I boil for 60 minutes if it contains pilsner, otherwise 45 minutes. This allows for good break formation (which I leave in the kettle), and it thoroughly sanitizes the kettle where I do the chilling (I use a 2-vessel system, so my kettle doesn't get sanitized during the mash).

What you did sounds good. Boiling is optional since we don't need any hop isomerization. No worries!
 
I boil for 60 minutes if it contains pilsner, otherwise 45 minutes. This allows for good break formation (which I leave in the kettle), and it thoroughly sanitizes the kettle where I do the chilling (I use a 2-vessel system, so my kettle doesn't get sanitized during the mash).

What you did sounds good. Boiling is optional since we don't need any hop isomerization. No worries!

I'm going with the post fermentation sour. Going to add the lacto 24 hrs later. So I'm away from homebtoday and have been watching the SG fall in fermentrack. I’m 50% attenuated already. Is there a point at which it becomes too late to sour? Are the lacto pretty alcohol tolerant? I know the plantarum are not hops tolerant... But what about ETOH?
 
The goal with post-souring is to add the Lacto when fermentation is 30-50% complete because that's when the yeast is done producing flavor.

I don't have experience adding bacteria after that point, but I've heard others have been successful. Lacto can consume dextrins and they are very alcohol-tolerant, so it should be ok. This process is pretty forgiving.

Make sure you purge the headspace if you have to add it when fermentation is over so that the beer doesn't oxidize.

Please report back with your results.
 
The goal with post-souring is to add the Lacto when fermentation is 30-50% complete because that's when the yeast is done producing flavor.

I don't have experience adding bacteria after that point, but I've heard others have been successful. Lacto can consume dextrins and they are very alcohol-tolerant, so it should be ok. This process is pretty forgiving.

Make sure you purge the headspace if you have to add it when fermentation is over so that the beer doesn't oxidize.

Please report back with your results.

Added 8 oz of goodbelly probiotic juice at 24 hours. Yeast was 50% attenuated. It was still producing co2/bubbling, so didn’t feel the need to purge headspace. Forgot to make a starter for the lacto though. Doh.

I’m just over 36 hrs since i added the goodbelly and tested pH which is now 4. It doesn’t have a puckering sour taste... maybe a very mild sour taste- i taste and smell the lacto. I’ve been keeping temp at 72 (upper limit for wlp300. Started at 68 and increased to 72 during the last few gravity points). Not sure if i should raise it? Gravity is now 1.008 and been stable for about 12hrs (down from og 1.052, so like 84% attenuation).

I’m planning to add 2.5 lbs of mango and 2.5 lbs of pineapple today (after pasteurizing it) and will purge fermenter headspace with co2. Im trying to speed this along as i want to keg this coming Sunday so it’s carbonated and chilled a few days for a party the following weekend.
 
Last edited:
I'd suggest to go ahead with the fruit additions.
You shouldn't need to raise the temp, but it wouldn't hurt.
 
Added 8 oz of goodbelly probiotic juice at 24 hours. Yeast was 50% attenuated. It was still producing co2/bubbling, so didn’t feel the need to purge headspace. Forgot to make a starter for the lacto though. Doh.

I’m just over 36 hrs since i added the goodbelly and tested pH which is now 4. It doesn’t have a puckering sour taste... maybe a very mild sour taste- i taste and smell the lacto. I’ve been keeping temp at 72 (upper limit for wlp300. Started at 68 and increased to 72 during the last few gravity points). Not sure if i should raise it? Gravity is now 1.008 and been stable for about 12hrs (down from og 1.052, so like 84% attenuation).

I’m planning to add 2.5 lbs of mango and 2.5 lbs of pineapple today (after pasteurizing it) and will purge fermenter headspace with co2. Im trying to speed this along as i want to keg this coming Sunday so it’s carbonated and chilled a few days for a party the following weekend.
4 days in. Added pineapple/mango 24 hrs ago. Had another healthy fermentation. Ramped temp up to 85 deg F last night. Airlock activity has stopped. SG is 1.008. pH is still 4. It maybe tastes a little tart? Not sure.

The goodbelly juice i used was not expired and it was refrigerated in the store. Should i pick some more up in the store, make a starter, and add it back?
 
4 days in. Added pineapple/mango 24 hrs ago. Had another healthy fermentation. Ramped temp up to 85 deg F last night. Airlock activity has stopped. SG is 1.008. pH is still 4. It maybe tastes a little tart? Not sure.

The goodbelly juice i used was not expired and it was refrigerated in the store. Should i pick some more up in the store, make a starter, and add it back?
Zero hops, right?

I've always made a buffered starter when post-souring and pitched it during the first half of yeast fermentation, a bit after it reaches high kräusen.

I think making a buffered starter and pitching it would help but with your limited timeline I'm not sure it will fully sour. The starter will at least help to some degree because it will directly add a lot of acid. Keep the starter warm to speed it up, 90-95°F.
 
Zero hops, right?

I've always made a buffered starter when post-souring and pitched it during the first half of yeast fermentation, a bit after it reaches high kräusen.

I think making a buffered starter and pitching it would help but with your limited timeline I'm not sure it will fully sour. The starter will at least help to some degree because it will directly add a lot of acid. Keep the starter warm to speed it up, 90-95°F.

yes, no hops. I’ll give it a go!

I apologize if this has been answered: How long do i let the starter go for? Should i make 500 ml of 1.040 starter using DME ? No stir plate, correct? I’m not sure how to keep low oxygen (unless purging a closed vessel with co2)?

edit:
I think i answered most my questions here:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Sugar_Utilization_and_Secondary_Metabolites
 
Last edited:
Normally I use 200-400mL wort from the 5 gal batch (chilled and pre-pitch), add a couple grams of calcium carbonate, add a capsule of my Lacto culture, and leave it sit at room temp. It just runs however long until it's time to pitch, generally 12-24 hours.

This is a special case where we need to be more aggressive.
Try this:
500mL with 40g DME, 10g dextrose, 10g calcium carbonate. Add however much goodbelly and try to keep it warm as I mentioned. I would let it go at least 12-24 hours of possible, but it will continue to produce acid if you let it go longer.

It's not necessary to keep it anaerobic. A stir plate isn't needed but I would swirl it occasionally.
You may eventually see it bubbling a little as the lactic acid reacts with the calcium carbonate.

Good luck!

Edit: and some yeast nutrient if you have it.
 
Last edited:
Normally I use 200-400mL wort from the 5 gal batch (chilled and pre-pitch), add a couple grams of calcium carbonate, add a capsule of my Lacto culture, and leave it sit at room temp. It just runs however long until it's time to pitch, generally 12-24 hours.

This is a special case where we need to be more aggressive.
Try this:
500mL with 40g DME, 10g dextrose, 10g calcium carbonate. Add however much goodbelly and try to keep it warm as I mentioned. I would let it go at least 12-24 hours of possible, but it will continue to produce acid.

It's not necessary to keep it anaerobic. A stir plate isn't needed but I would swirl it occasionally.
You may eventually see it bubbling a little as the lactic acid reacts with the calcium carbonate.

Good luck!
Cool, i have that all on that on hand. My temp controllers are all in use... will have to find a warm spot or steal a temp controller from something...
 
Is there enough sugars in my main batch for the l. plantarum? I think alluded previously that it will eat sugars the yeast won’t? Is it possible that the yeast outcompeted the lacto? I’ve always heard that you have use a strong starter, it helps prevents spoilage/contamination. I was short on time and only did a 500 ml 4 hr vitality starter with the wlp300 though.
 
Back
Top