Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[Miraculix]

@RPh_Guy

Regarding the fast brett process, I am assuming that a lot of the brett flavour comes from brett consuming dead yeast. So how about first pitching anamylase enzyme so that the brett and normal yeast can eat all the available sugars quickly and then, to speed things up further and not to not have to wait for the normal yeast to die, pitch some boiled bread yeast for the brett to digest to create funk? Ever tried that?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is that kind of where you are going with your fast sour with Brett?

I explain the method I'm currently using on this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bottling-with-brett.667180/

You can also read about it in the MTF wiki under mixed fermentation - under 3 months.

More experiments are needed before I want to advocate that as the best method though. It's a much more complex process than these Lacto/Sacc sours. The devil is in the details.

@RPh_Guy

Regarding the fast brett process, I am assuming that a lot of the brett flavour comes from brett consuming dead yeast. So how about first pitching anamylase enzyme so that the brett and normal yeast can eat all the available sugars quickly and then, to speed things up further and not to not have to wait for the normal yeast to die, pitch some boiled bread yeast for the brett to digest to create funk? Ever tried that?

Good thinking! I actually mention that as a theoretical possibility in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/maximizing-barnyard-horse-blanket.669188/
My current thought is that blending will be needed to create the desired profile in such an accelerated timeframe. One sour batch with fruity Brett character (which really is a fantastic beer by itself) and one batch optimized for barnyard funk.

Cheers

 

[DiscDuffer]

Where was this 6-7 months ago? Would have saved me some worry! I used the "post-souring method," waited for fermentation to be over then racked on fruit. I also would repitch the slurry for the "co-souring method."

I did not see either of these methods spelled out in the Milk The Funk wiki. I know the Germans have not been, traditionally, kettle souring and I could not figure out a practical way for me to do it. I do believe the original Berliner Weisse had brett in it, but without brett it should be done much quicker.

After my first 'quick sour,' as I like to call them, was done I gave one to my pro brewer friend and laughed about how much easier my process was. He said they also pitch the Lactobacillus plantarum into the fermentor. We had both come to the conclusion that when santizing one of the things we a trying to kill is Lacto, so why make things more difficult.

I did not think that mashing was enough for pasteurization so sparge into my kettle and get it to 180*F for 15 min.

 

[radwizard]

I really don't think anyone needs to give credit for a souring method. This is just co-pitching home brewed beer, right?
I agree that "The Reverse Kettle Sour" is not easy to stumble upon on the wiki. There is a good thread about in in the FB group, but it is not something that frequently comes up.

Kudos for the instructional, it should be stickied. And it it were to be stickied in our sub-forum, make sure you give credit to the proper groups when telling forum users to read the sticky!

 

[Beer666]

I have found a mashout at 75c is enough to pasteurise the wort. I recirculate and hold it for 10 minutes and that does the trick.
I have a co pitched brew going with Omega Labs lacto and farmhouse Voss. Really looking forward to this. Fermenting at 27c.

 

[deeve007]

Co-pitching with WildBrew Sour Pitch it was fine fermenting at room temps, around 17-21c. The passionfruit sour I made was as good as many I've purchased, and with the simplest recipe imaginable.

 

[Miraculix]

Co-pitching with WildBrew Sour Pitch it was fine fermenting at room temps, around 17-21c. The passionfruit sour I made was as good as many I've purchased, and with the simplest recipe imaginable.

Passion fruit sour sounds really good to me. If I'd have access to cheap pain fruits, I'd definitely be brewing it.

 

[Miraculix]

Passion fruit sir sounds really good to me. If I'd have access to cheap pain fruits, I'd definitely be brewing it.

Bloody hell, I just remembered that I have a kg of pure passion fruit puree at home! Now I know what to brew with it!!!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have found a mashout at 75c is enough to pasteurise the wort. I recirculate and hold it for 10 minutes and that does the trick.

Every normal mash schedule provides more than enough Pasteurization Units to kill any microbes in the wort.

I would like to make a sour with Voss. I think it'll be awesome! Good luck.

passionfruit sour

Passionfruit is one of very few fruits I actually like in beer. Petrus Passionfruit is really good if you can find it.

 

[deeve007]

Bloody hell, I just remembered that I have a kg of pure passion fruit puree at home! Now I know what to brew with it!!!

Yep, I used puree and it worked great!! And I just used a 50% pilsen, 50% wheat grain mix as you'll see from a post I created about my sour, and it turned out so good! I might add a little oats next time to add some "creaminess" to see how that goes...

I've found raspberry is also excellent for sours, so will do a batch with those one day. And the best sour/gose I've had was a salted plum gose, from Beerfarm in Australia, incredible beer!!

 

[Miraculix]

Passionfruit is one of very few fruits I actually like in beer. Petrus Passionfruit is really good if you can find it.

I 100% agree. I don't like fruit beers, I like beer beers. The only beer with fruit I really liked was a wild gooseberry beer I had once and from that one I can easily imagine passion fruit or this little red sour one which I forgot the English name for (johannisbeere in German) within the same sour base. Oh it's gonna be good.

 

[FrozenOcean]

Could I use Wyeast 5335 with this method? It is listed as the strain "Lactobacillus Buchneri". I bought it intending to do a kettle sour, but then found this very interesting thread!

Thanks.

 

[deeve007]

I 100% agree. I don't like fruit beers, I like beer beers. The only beer with fruit I really liked was a wild gooseberry beer I had once and from that one I can easily imagine passion fruit or this little red sour one which I forgot the English name for (johannisbeere in German) within the same sour base. Oh it's gonna be good.

If you're not using some kind of fruit with a sour, what type of sour are you doing?

 

[Miraculix]

If you're not using some kind of fruit with a sour, what type of sour are you doing?

A sour one

... All my sours have been happy little accidents within my gruit beer tryouts.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Could I use Wyeast 5335 with this method? It is listed as the strain "Lactobacillus Buchneri". I bought it intending to do a kettle sour, but then found this very interesting thread!

Thanks.

No, sorry. WY5335 definitely can't be used with these methods.

WY5335 is slow even at high temperature and doesn't produce as much sourness as L. plantarum. I don't recommend anyone use that culture, regardless of your method.

L. plantarum is definitely the king of fast souring. You won't regret using plantarum but you might regret using buchneri (I did when I used it).

If you're not using some kind of fruit with a sour, what type of sour are you doing?

I haven't yet added fruit to a sour beer, and that's probably most of what I make.

Almost none of the traditional styles have fruit: Berliner, Gose, Saison, Kvass, Lambic, Gueuze, Flanders Red, Oud Bruin, Lictenhainer, Faro... Only fruit lambics traditionally have fruit, and they aren't traditionally dessert sweet like Lindemanns pasteurized series.
These commercial fruit smoothies and sours with all kinds of unusual flavor adjuncts (like cucumber sushi curry) are unique American creations, often improperly labeled with the traditional style names. (Also, some people say that the entire concept of beer "styles" is an American creation, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

The bacteria blend I use adds a lot of flavor and I also use very flavorful fruity yeast strains (including Brett, which is amazing) along with the post-sour method.
For example, WLP644 + WY5526 + Lacto makes a sour pineapple + mango + cherry beer with that indescribable Brett character and it's amazing. It also develops a very nice horseblanket if you allow it to age.

WLP644 post-soured makes a great beer without the Brett, and doesn't need temperature control so it's very newbie-friendly! There are plenty of other fruity flavorful yeasts as well.

I also make some hoppy sours, which are quite good. Amarillo is popular for good reason. Czech Saaz works really well too; it's one of my favorites.

Also, malt can obviously add plenty of flavor. Flanders Red is probably my favorite style. The Munich, crystal, and small amounts of Special B malt and oak really complement the cherry Brett character and mix of lactic sourness and slight acetic tang. Grab a bottle of Duchesse de Bourgogne or Rodenbach Grand Cru and give either of those a try.
Plenty of other malts are good for adding dimension too, beyond what I've mentioned.

In a gose, the water profile adds a refreshing minerality. Coriander is traditional, but I prefer to use hops for flavoring in my own spin on this style.

Gruit is flavored with interesting herbs and probably does well with souring, but I haven't gotten around to those quite yet.

These souring methods I've presented allow easy production of complex beers that don't need fruit or any other adjuncts... Not one-note kettle sours.
Of course, if you do like fruit beer, it's probably best to make sour beer as the base since most fruits are naturally sour so it better complements the fruit character.

Cheers

 

[sykesey]

Thanks for the info - I was planning to do my first kettle sour with the Lallemand Sour Pitch, but decided after reading this to try this way. I'm using TYB Simonaitis Lithuanian farmhouse in a 1 litre starter and pitched about 3g of the Sour Pitch into a 23L batch. The rest of the sour pitch i've CO2 purged in a ziplock and frozen, hopefully it lives to see another day sometime.

I've got an inkbird and heatbelt set to 30c (about 85F), overnight it's been about 28c - it's a little cold at the moment, and I need a second heat belt to keep it as hot as I need. Pitch pH was just over 4.5 and it's down to 4.3 after 8 hours of ferment so far.

Using Kveik/Simonaitis plus L.plantarum, I guess it's possible to turn around a sour really fast if you keep the temp above 30C, some of the kveiks will easily go to 36-37C/97F which is the ideal temp for the Sour Pitch according to lallemand. I guess the only risk is that you sour too fast and miss the perfect pH you're aiming for while you're asleep, rather than the process taking a few days at normal 20C/70F-ish temps

anyway will see how it goes. Once it's down to about ph 3.5 I'll be adding a hop tea and dry hopping with some aussie hops I won in a comp - Astra and Enigma.

 

[deeve007]

Thanks for the info - I was planning to do my first kettle sour with the Lallemand Sour Pitch, but decided after reading this to try this way.

The original process doesn't exclude Lallemand Sour Pitch, it's just another bacteria option. I used it for my first ever sour following a simple recipe from @RPh_Guy and it worked a treat!! Using it again for a lime & jalapeno gose I'll be trying...

And the co-pitching method avoids you needing to worry about keeping it so hot at all, room temps are fine.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Pitch pH was just over 4.5

4.5 isn't normal. Did you pre-acidify somehow? That will suppress yeast expression to some extent.

The post-sour I made with Hornindal kveik at 95°F (35°C) I bottled after 3 days. Pretty fast indeed.

Good luck! Keep us updated.

The original process doesn't exclude Lallemand Sour Pitch, it's just another bacteria option. [...] room temps are fine.

The heat is for the yeast, and it sounds like he did use the Lallemand bacteria.
It's all good!

Cheers!

 

[deeve007]

The heat is for the yeast, and it sounds like he did use the Lallemand bacteria.
It's all good!

Ahh okay, so not for the bacteria, just that type of yeast?

 

[sykesey]

The original process doesn't exclude Lallemand Sour Pitch, it's just another bacteria option. I used it for my first ever sour following a simple recipe from @RPh_Guy and it worked a treat!! Using it again for a lime & jalapeno gose I'll be trying...

And the co-pitching method avoids you needing to worry about keeping it so hot at all, room temps are fine.

Ahh okay, so not for the bacteria, just that type of yeast?

Yeah, I just meant i was going to do a "normal" kettle sour, but decided to co-pitch instead. I'm still using the sour pitch + simonaitis.

I pre-acidified the wort after chilling to 4.5 with phosphoric... I want this beer to hopefully have some head, and I was trying to keep in the right ph range for sour pitch. If the yeast is subdued that's fine, it'll be fermenting hot anyway.

There's a commercial sour beer here in Oz i like a lot, the Colonial South West sour, hoping i get somewhere close to it. Grainbill is pale/vienna/wheat and a touch of oats for haze & mouthfeel.

 

[deeve007]

My grain bill for my next gose starts with the 50/50 pils/wheat split I did for my first sour which worked out great (thanks @RPh_Guy!), and adding 10% carapils... and possibly some oats too for haze/smoothness/mouthfeel as you mention (though maybe the carapils does that enough?).

 

[applescrap]

Thanks rph. So glad to find this. Just the other day I was thinking, i really want to make a sour, but the whole kettle method and reboil. I have been wondering if beer would sour at room temp, i mean why wouldnt it. Anyways you answered that. With no chill and no boil this beer is up my alley. A few questions.

With no boil, stability is an issue, does souring the beer help?

Sometimes life gets in way, and i have beers stay in primary for up to 30 days, would this be a problem?

How and when would fruit be added?

Thanks again what a cool thing. I cant wait to make some. All I seem to drink is sours and they sure are going up in cost. Last one was lactose, pineapple, vanilla, and coconut (pina collada?) And it was good, but over 4 a can! One rainbow sherbet sour from prarie, I am sure was fruit loops possibly in the mash, only a guess.

 

[RPh_Guy]

adding 10% carapils... and possibly some oats too for haze/smoothness/mouthfeel as you mention (though maybe the carapils does that enough?).

Look up some threads about carapils. Popular opinion is that it doesn't help with anything in the slightest.

Oats... Check out this article:
http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Just things I've seen.

Back on topic ...
I've just recently begun to produce beers with good head retention (step mashing is key), so at some point I will be able to weigh in on how much these souring methods affect head.
Or perhaps someone else who's been using these methods already has some experience to share?

@sykesey
That's not exactly what I would do but still sounds ok. It'll be tasty, no worries.
FYI looks like they used munich, not vienna.

Thanks rph. So glad to find this. Just the other day I was thinking, i really want to make a sour, but the whole kettle method and reboil. I have been wondering if beer would sour at room temp, i mean why wouldnt it. Anyways you answered that. With no chill and no boil this beer is up my alley.

Great!

With no boil, stability is an issue, does souring the beer help?

Yes, low pH helps both to reduce the effects of wild microbes and also reduces staling.

Sometimes life gets in way, and i have beers stay in primary for up to 30 days, would this be a problem?

Long primary isn't a problem, but it be fully sour after a couple weeks, and not everyone likes it that sour. You can toss in hops (dry or tea) at any point if you want to prematurely halt souring based on your preference.

How and when would fruit be added?

Same as any fruit beer. It's suggested to add fruit after primary fermentation. If it physically fits in the primary vessel, that's fine, otherwise a secondary is fine too. Allow it another maybe 1-2 weeks to ferment and extract flavor.

If you are using raw fruit I recommend heat Pasteurization (e.g. 150°F for 20 mins) unless you want to take your chances with wild microbes.

If you want a sugary sweet fruit beer like many commercial options, you can add fruit juice at kegging so it doesn't ferment.
Adding lactose is fine too, if you feel the urge.

I feel you on craft sour beer prices. As with other styles, you will probably find yourself enjoying your own brews more than the commercial beer options pretty quickly.
Cheers

 

[deeve007]

How and when would fruit be added?

I made my first sour with the help of a couple of people in this thread, info here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/my-first-sour-brew-progress.669906/

I racked to secondary after a week, gravity stable, onto passionfruit in one fermenter, mixed red fruits in another, for another week, and they both turned out great, though the passionfruit especially so. Trying for a lime & jalapeno gose next...

 

[sykesey]

@sykesey
That's not exactly what I would do but still sounds ok. It'll be tasty, no worries.
FYI looks like they used munich, not vienna.

I didn't really notice the part where you mentioned don't bother pre-acidifying, whoops. Hopefully will all go ok though, it's bubbling away quite well right now and already down to 4.2ph. And yep, they used Munich but I don't have any right now so I made up for it with lots of vienna. Mine was about 43% pale malt, 29% vienna, 22% wheat malt and 6% torrified oats to 1042 OG. It won't be the same, but in the right ballpark. Beersmith says 6.6 EBC but it looks a tiny bit darker than that.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It should be good still. 4.5 definitely won't completely inhibit yeast expression.

I'd like the try that isolate; it sounds delicious.

 

[sykesey]

Tastes amazing already. It's throwing out the signature pineapple-orange-guava along with the tartness & lemon from the L.plantarum.

Thinking about it more, Simonaitis was a good choice, as the original culture was a mixed strain of Sacc and Lactobacillus if i'm not mistaken. Which means the isolated Sacc strain has co-existed with LAB for a while now already, which should make it pretty pH tolerant. It's already down to 1025 SG from starting around 1040, so doesn't seem to be holding back.

Just dry hopped it with 5g each of 2019 crop Astra and Enigma. The Enigma smells amazing. Hopefully it won't be enough to fully inhibit the Lacto, I just want to add a bit of hop flavour now while it's still got some sugar to get through.

(EDIT: Now i realise that amount will probably inhibit the lacto quite a bit - spec sheets say 8ppm beta acid / 4ppm alpha, I've added probably at least 20ppm beta acid... oh well. Don't do what i did unless you want a beer that's not that sour)

Hasn't quite crossed pH 4 yet, just hovering at 4.02, just gotta see what happens over the next couple of hours. But so far, so good!!

 

[applescrap]

Thanks for the tips and answers. So fruit juice is behind the sours I like. I am curious why they wont ferment, assume because they have some sort of preservatives. I am familiar with adding fruit to brew but not so much juice, although I think juice sounds less expensive and easier. I was wondering if the bold flavors were maybe from some sort of sulfate sulfite and backsweetened, hmm, maybe a new thread!

Look up some threads about carapils. Popular opinion is that it doesn't help with anything in the slightest.

Oats... Check out this article:
http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Just things I've seen.

Back on topic ...
I've just recently begun to produce beers with good head retention (step mashing is key), so at some point I will be able to weigh in on how much these souring methods affect head.
Or perhaps someone else who's been using these methods already has some experience to share?

@sykesey
That's not exactly what I would do but still sounds ok. It'll be tasty, no worries.
FYI looks like they used munich, not vienna.


Great!

Yes, low pH helps both to reduce the effects of wild microbes and also reduces staling.

Long primary isn't a problem, but it be fully sour after a couple weeks, and not everyone likes it that sour. You can toss in hops (dry or tea) at any point if you want to prematurely halt souring based on your preference.

Same as any fruit beer. It's suggested to add fruit after primary fermentation. If it physically fits in the primary vessel, that's fine, otherwise a secondary is fine too. Allow it another maybe 1-2 weeks to ferment and extract flavor.

If you are using raw fruit I recommend heat Pasteurization (e.g. 150°F for 20 mins) unless you want to take your chances with wild microbes.

If you want a sugary sweet fruit beer like many commercial options, you can add fruit juice at kegging so it doesn't ferment.
Adding lactose is fine too, if you feel the urge.

I feel you on craft sour beer prices. As with other styles, you will probably find yourself enjoying your own brews more than the commercial beer options pretty quickly.
Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am curious why they wont ferment, assume because they have some sort of preservatives.

I believe they flash pasteurize and force carbonate.

If you keg, you can simply prevent fermentation by keeping it cold.
If you bottle, you can heat pasteurize after carbonating like some home cider makers do. Those are the main options.

Personally, I prefer yeast-derived fruit flavor vs most fruit beer. I suggest a post-sour batch with wlp644 as an easy introduction, with 0.5oz of your favorite fruity hop tea added when packaging. Just my preference.

Just dry hopped it with 5g each of 2019 crop Astra and Enigma. The Enigma smells amazing. Hopefully it won't be enough to fully inhibit the Lacto, I just want to add a bit of hop flavour now while it's still got some sugar to get through.

(EDIT: Now i realise that amount will probably inhibit the lacto quite a bit - spec sheets say 8ppm beta acid / 4ppm alpha, I've added probably at least 20ppm beta acid... oh well. Don't do what i did unless you want a beer that's not that sour)

Yeah...... L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive.
Was this a 19L batch or thereabouts?

We don't actually know the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) for dry hop quantity (or to what extent the AA level comes into play) for L. plantarum but it's definitely very low. It'll be interesting to see if this continues to sour.

 

[sykesey]

Yeah...... L. plantarum is extremely hop-sensitive.
Was this a 19L batch or thereabouts?

We don't actually know the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) for dry hop quantity (or to what extent the AA level comes into play) for L. plantarum but it's definitely very low. It'll be interesting to see if this continues to sour.

Yep, 21L or thereabouts - the FV i'm using doesnt have marks on it so i'm not 100% sure but its about 21-22L.

It's still souring, just not as fast as before, some of that is the logarithmic nature of pH but it's slowly happening. A couple of hours ago it was 4.05 or so and now it's just at 3.98, i'll just see how it goes over the next couple of days. I'll be happy if it hovers around 3.8-3.9 final pH, this doesn't need to be a super tart beer, more like a session sour ale as we come into summer here. I've tasted other sours that finished about that mark and it makes for a nicely balanced refreshing beer.
I guess the LAB culture still managed to grow quite a lot in the time before the hops, so hopefully there's enough cells in there to keep souring even if it's a bit subdued.