Fast Souring - Modern Methods

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Spikybits

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Barrel or Foeder? Seems like foeders like the one David Heath recently covered are very nice, but now $1100. Seems a similarly sized barrel can be found at MoreBeer for $359 plus shipping. Thoughts?
you can try a local distillery - well AZ - a winery for neutral barrels or barrels they are parting with.
 

cmhaynes

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Man, I've been homebrewing for 10 years, and I can't belive how badly I've screwed up my first attempt at this method. I've made lots of mixed fermentation beers like long-aged sours and brett saisons with fairly good results. I was really excited to try this, so I brewed up a batch with a gravity around 1.040 and pitched wlp590 and wlp644 together along with a brett strain from The Yeast Bay. After 36 hours, I pitched to GoodBelly shots, and unfortunately, after 48 hours, it had barely soured. I really wanted to dry hop before fermentation had ended so I went ahead. I used 2 ounces of Zuper Saazer in a 4 gallon batch, which ended up being way too much. The beer ended up with a pH of only 3.94, and of course there is no bitterness at all. The dry hops are very harsh, and I get this slight aftertaste of mustard, probably due to the hint of sourness mixed with the hops. I should have just dumped the batch, but I went ahead and bottled. It was at 1.002, so based on previous experience, I thought I should be fine. Now today, after a bit more than 3 weeks in the bottle, I opened one and it gushed pretty badly. I think I'm just going to have to pour all these down the drain at this point, because I don't have enough space in fridge fot the bottles, and they taste too bad to drink anyway. So, there are lessons to learn no matter how long you've been brewing. Next time, I'll make a starter for the lactobacillus, and I won't dry hop a beer like this with a hop I've never used before.
 
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RPh_Guy

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Man, I've been homebrewing for 10 years, and I can't belive how badly I've screwed up my first attempt at this method. I've made lots of mixed fermentation beers like long-aged sours and brett saisons with fairly good results. I was really excited to try this, so I brewed up a batch with a gravity around 1.040 and pitched wlp590 and wlp644 together along with a brett strain from The Yeast Bay. After 36 hours, I pitched to GoodBelly shots, and unfortunately, after 48 hours, it had barely soured. I really wanted to dry hop before fermentation had ended so I went ahead. I used 2 ounces of Zuper Saazer in a 4 gallon batch, which ended up being way too much. The beer ended up with a pH of only 3.94, and of course there is no bitterness at all. The dry hops are very harsh, and I get this slight aftertaste of mustard, probably due to the hint of sourness mixed with the hops. I should have just dumped the batch, but I went ahead and bottled. It was at 1.002, so based on previous experience, I thought I should be fine. Now today, after a bit more than 3 weeks in the bottle, I opened one and it gushed pretty badly. I think I'm just going to have to pour all these down the drain at this point, because I don't have enough space in fridge fot the bottles, and they taste too bad to drink anyway. So, there are lessons to learn no matter how long you've been brewing. Next time, I'll make a starter for the lactobacillus, and I won't dry hop a beer like this with a hop I've never used before.
Did you use glucoamylase?
 

cmhaynes

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Did you use glucoamylase?
Alas, I did not. I now see that it was crucial, but at the time, I thought the low gravity, long low mash and agressive yeast would be enough as it's worked for me many times in the past. Now I'm wondering if it was just a matter of time before this caught up with me. The gushing gives me an excuse to just dump it all instead of choking it down. With no bitterness or sourness to balance it, along with the strange hop character, this beer is not pleasant to drink. The only positive is the aroma. Lesson learned.

*Edit: Opened another bottle yesterday, and it didn't gush at all and had normal carbonation. Strangely, it was as clear as a filtered beer even though I used French Saison and 644! Anyway, it's weird, but I guess I have to drink it now. Maybe when the hops fade a bit and the brett comes out it will be a bit more drinkable.
 
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Barbarossa

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I'm planning a Berliner weisse beer. I saw a video where the guys made all kind of tests and figured out that the most sour they could get was to let the Lactobacillus for a week alone, then pitch the yeast.

Seems a bit risky for my first attempt. Should I just do the co-souring method?

I'm will use yeast 5335 (buchneri) and wyeast 1007 (German ale).
 

Brewer dad

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Hop tea vs dry hopping question/s.

What is the difference overall between the two in regards to impact on the overall flavor? Does tea add more bitterness vs flavor/aroma? Would doing both(maybe with lighter doses) layer flavors in a beneficial way? Finally, is one generally recommended over the other for novices in particular?

I started a wlp644 post sour yesterday(man that stuff smells good). Made a lacto starter from Swanson capsules which I will pitch tomorrow morning. I have some Idaho Gem hops which I was hoping to use. I'm just doing extract batches in fermonsters/carboys, don't have any oxygen purging capabilities yet. My thought would be to either make tea(added to bottling bucket), or add dry hop before end of fermentation to diminish oxidation. For this first batch I'm keeping it fairly simple to get idea of process/flavors.

Thanks so much

@RPh_Guy and @Beer666 for all your help so far, as well as everyone else who has contributed to this thread!

*Edit to clarify when I'd add tea
 
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RPh_Guy

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I'm planning a Berliner weisse beer. I saw a video where the guys made all kind of tests and figured out that the most sour they could get was to let the Lactobacillus for a week alone, then pitch the yeast.

Seems a bit risky for my first attempt. Should I just do the co-souring method?

I'm will use yeast 5335 (buchneri) and wyeast 1007 (German ale).
5335 (bacterial culture) is incompatible with this method, and I don't recommend that culture in general because it's slow and requires higher temperature.


What is the difference overall between the two in regards to impact on the overall flavor? Does tea add more bitterness vs flavor/aroma? Would doing both(maybe with lighter doses) layer flavors in a beneficial way? Finally, is one generally recommended over the other for novices in particular?
Making the tea is a little more work than dry hopping. The hop tea is my preferred method because it avoids oxidation issues, allows a longer period of souring, and adds a little more bitterness which is important for overall beer character in my opinion. The flavor is comparable between them, although I may prefer the flavor from hop tea. I typically boil for 5 minutes and then chill in an ice bath. I've had the best results adding the entirety of the tea (including the hop material, contained in a hop sock or otherwise). I have tried using a French press but wasn't too thrilled with it. Still experimenting to fine-tune the process.

Cheers
 

Brewer dad

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Did a post sour with WLP644 that came out great! Went with a hop tea with Idaho Gem, will play with the hop/water ratio a little I did 1/2 oz to 1L. Used Swanson capsules from Amazon, they arrived perfectly fine.

Quite an interesting beer for what is really a simple process. I encourage anyone, even newer Brewers such as myself, to give this a shot. As for me up next is a Flanders red with WY5526 to give Brett a shot.
 
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