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Fast Souring - Modern Methods

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tizoc

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Now that winter is about to end here, I plan to get back into brewing fast sours soon. Something I want to try, is blending of sour beer with wine (mainly because I find it much easier to get good wine than to get good grapes), starting with a ~4-5% abv post/co-soured saison blended with white wine.

Has anyone tried something like this? what did you do? what where the results?

I'm a bit worried about sulfites, but maybe, for the amount of wine I plan to use in a first test-batch (one or maybe two 750ml white wine bottles in a 20L batch) it is not going to be an issue.
 
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fendersrule

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Brewing my first dark cherry sour.

OG: 1.064
Color: 30.1 SRM
~6.5% ABV

85% 2-row
10% Munich 20L
5% Midnight Wheat

119064893_10157686817234021_590962127447744903_n.jpg

119231876_10157686957914021_569026440256506233_n.jpg


The idea behind the grain bill is to limit the roastiness and to alter the color to a dark enough level where the Cherries have a chance of additional coloring.

Pre-pitched 6PM on 9/12 (6 Swansons and 12 ounce of Goodbelly)
Pitched US-05 3PM on 9/13
Checked PH level on 9/17 @ 3.29. Fermentation still active and a good 1" head of krausin.

Another successful sour. Tastes very clean as well. Going to continue to let the PH drop. Fruiting shortly.

119434761_10157698233769021_506113186183232525_n.jpg
 

Beer666

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I have been keeping my lacto in a 2l bottle for the last year and topping it up with a fresh liter of wort every so often. It is working well and i have no problem souring post fermentation yet i had a sample a while back and it was like battery acid. Unfortunately i do not have a ph meter and i did not think to test the gravity. I added fresh wort and a week later the gravity had halved to 1020. Would this suggest yeast contamination? It is not buffered. There are no off flavours or smells but i am curious. Thanks
 
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RPh_Guy

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I have been keeping my lacto in a 2l bottle for the last year and topping it up with a fresh liter of wort every so often. It is working well and i have no problem souring post fermentation yet i had a sample a while back and it was like battery acid. Unfortunately i do not have a ph meter and i did not think to test the gravity. I added fresh wort and a week later the gravity had halved to 1020. Would this suggest yeast contamination? It is not buffered. There are no off flavours or smells but i am curious. Thanks
Yeah, you have some yeast in there.
 

OldDogBrewing

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Brewing my first dark cherry sour.

OG: 1.064
Color: 30.1 SRM
~6.5% ABV

85% 2-row
10% Munich 20L
5% Midnight Wheat

View attachment 698855
View attachment 698858

The idea behind the grain bill is to limit the roastiness and to alter the color to a dark enough level where the Cherries have a chance of additional coloring.

Pre-pitched 6PM on 9/12 (6 Swansons and 12 ounce of Goodbelly)
Pitched US-05 3PM on 9/13
Checked PH level on 9/17 @ 3.29. Fermentation still active and a good 1" head of krausin.

Another successful sour. Tastes very clean as well. Going to continue to let the PH drop. Fruiting shortly.

View attachment 698856
I have something similar but it was air inoculated, now tastes really British but I hope it gets sour at some point and then I will choose between cherries or raspberries, seeing yours makes me go cherries
 

Beer666

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Has anyone used WLP673 Lactobacillus Buchneri? I have just bought a pack as they don't have any OL labs. Can be used in secondary and is hop tolerant up to 15IBU.
 
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Has anyone used WLP673 Lactobacillus Buchneri? I have just bought a pack as they don't have any OL labs. Can be used in secondary and is hop tolerant up to 15IBU.
It will surely not sour quickly. There's no substitute for L. plantarum with this method in my opinion.
 

fendersrule

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All bottled up.

mellow chocolate up front with cherry flavor. Very clean. Tastes and looks great. No dry hopping. Very sour. 1.015 FG. 6.5%

4C20A099-0308-4CA6-B1F3-325971BF2EC5.jpeg

9DDD8E74-6EF5-4325-AFB0-FB2C8F5F859F.jpeg

79EB2A51-F8BE-4F2B-AD55-5902E8890FEE.jpeg

297D04C0-745D-4088-BF48-CBBCF9057EC8.jpeg
 

OldDogBrewing

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How do you think this strain would work for wort souring? I'm planning on acidifying worth and then boil but sour pitches are a bit overpriced where I live so I might try with plantarum that is a bit more accessible
 

OldDogBrewing

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You can pre-acidify with L. plantarum strain (goodbelly and/or digestive health pills).
Thanks, I'm not planning on going really low on pH so I think any strain will work but it needs to go relatively fast, I can get expelled from home if I have the kettle full of wort around for too many days hahahaha
 

fendersrule

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It is faster to just co-pitch or slightly pre-pitch like what I do...if you're worried about speed. :)
 

OldDogBrewing

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It is faster to just co-pitch or slightly pre-pitch like what I do...if you're worried about speed. :)
I need to lower it to make it more suitable for a 100% brett fermentation, and it's a dark beer so copitching might end up giving me issues with sourness in a dark beer
 

Beer666

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It will surely not sour quickly. There's no substitute for L. plantarum with this method in my opinion.
Ah. I thought it might be ok as it can be used for kettle souring. Thanks RH.
 

Beer666

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I forgot to make starters for lacto and brett. Can i repitch the slurry from my last batch?
 
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I tend to repitch my slurry over and over again. It changes character from batch to batch, but not radically. I think with my first ever sour culture, getting ready to pitch the slurry for the 4th time in 2 1/2 years, it is definitely more complex and delicious than when I started it out. It really is our "House Culture."
 

OldDogBrewing

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Already ordered L.Plantarum capsules for my wort souring needs (for a 100% Brett beer) but I will definitely try my hand at some sours

Maybe a "traditional" berliner with brett at secondary and see how it goes before going crazy with other styles or even fruited or heavily dry hopped beers
 
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How do you think this strain would work for wort souring? I'm planning on acidifying worth and then boil but sour pitches are a bit overpriced where I live so I might try with plantarum that is a bit more accessible
L. plantarum is great for souring wort. However, the modern souring methods described in this thread are arguably a much better approach than souring wort.

Thanks, I'm not planning on going really low on pH so I think any strain will work but it needs to go relatively fast, I can get expelled from home if I have the kettle full of wort around for too many days hahahaha
Many species of Lactobacillus are not as good at souring as L. plantarum. The species matters. L. plantarum is also generally the fastest.

I need to lower it to make it more suitable for a 100% brett fermentation, and it's a dark beer so copitching might end up giving me issues with sourness in a dark beer
I'm not really sure what you mean. The color of the wort doesn't affect the souring.

I forgot to make starters for lacto and brett. Can i repitch the slurry from my last batch?
I'm sure you can make a fine beer that way, but it's not really the optimal method for several reasons.

Cheers
 

OldDogBrewing

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L. plantarum is great for souring wort. However, the modern souring methods described in this thread are arguably a much better approach than souring wort.


Many species of Lactobacillus are not as good at souring as L. plantarum. The species matters. L. plantarum is also generally the fastest.


I'm not really sure what you mean. The color of the wort doesn't affect the souring.


I'm sure you can make a fine beer that way, but it's not really the optimal method for several reasons.

Cheers
The colour doesn't affect sourness but roasty flavours and dark flavours in general don't go well with sourness IMO, so I will give it just a day to lower it to mid 4s probably so Brett can have a better start and create more esters and sub products

I think that the modern method would be a bit harder to have a control on the final ph and sourness on the palate and if it's too sour I won't like it as in dark beers I don't generally like sourness, but if this works well I will give it a try with an unhopped version of the stout next time with the modern method
 
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OldDogBrewing

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Acidity decreases ester formation


Why is that?
I know it decreases but apparently it makes for a better start which should give more esters, I will try both things over the time, now a presoured wort and later a non sour wort and see what changes

I understand that killing or stopping the lacto with hops, may not stop the souring on the spot and it might keep souring a bit more while heat should kill it instantly, at least that's what I think, maybe I'm wrong and a hop tea it's a full stop in souring
 
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I know it decreases but apparently it makes for a better start which should give more esters
It's well-known that acidity decreases ester formation by yeast. This is easy to demonstrate for yourself if your try both methods. Both Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces character is muted in pre-soured beer, and co-soured beer to some extent.

I understand that killing or stopping the lacto with hops, may not stop the souring on the spot and it might keep souring a bit more while heat should kill it instantly, at least that's what I think, maybe I'm
Anecdotal evidence including my own experience suggests that a hop additional will immediately stop souring by the bacteria, and thus the sour taste. However, the pH may continue to drop due to yeast fermentation (regardless of what method is used).

Cheers
 

OldDogBrewing

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It's well-known that acidity decreases ester formation by yeast. This is easy to demonstrate for yourself if your try both methods. Both Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces character is muted in pre-soured beer, and co-soured beer to some extent.


Anecdotal evidence including my own experience suggests that a hop additional will immediately stop souring by the bacteria, and thus the sour taste. However, the pH may continue to drop due to yeast fermentation (regardless of what method is used).

Cheers
Yes, it should decrease total esters quantities but through a lower pH I'm expecting to reduce other compounds thus making esters more noticeable sensory wise speaking, basically I will try to produce a faster and healthier fermentation to obtain a better flavour, even considering the loss of esters, it might be a good idea to try it with the strain that I'm considering, which is B. Lambicus

I still have to figure out the grist but I might be able to split the batch and see how both methods work
 

tizoc

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Now that winter is about to end here, I plan to get back into brewing fast sours soon. Something I want to try, is blending of sour beer with wine (mainly because I find it much easier to get good wine than to get good grapes), starting with a ~4-5% abv post/co-soured saison blended with white wine.
Brewed this yesterday (50/50 pils/wheat, low-oxygen, 30mins boil, 1.033 OG, pitched BE-134, expecting it to go down to about 1.003 for ~4% ABV + a bit extra from the wine), and pitched the lacto starter earlier today (about 20 hours post-sacc-pitch). I think I got a bit too much of the calcium carbonate getting into the fermenter, I hope that doesn't hurt the batch 👀

I will probably mix the white wine in tomorrow (a single bottle this time), but I will measure the sulfite with some strips I have, and try the expend them if I see that the value is high.
 

Beer666

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I kegged bottled my second bretted sour beer last week. 100% brett WLP4203 beersel blend finished at 1002 with the help of gluco. Oaked and dry hopped with citra. Such a complex beer, works perfectly with no boil as well.
I really feel like i hit the jackpot finding this thread and once you have all the bugs its a very cheap beer to make. Next one will be using WLP644 again so it fully attenuates along with the 3 different bretts i have.
 

tizoc

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Brewed this yesterday (50/50 pils/wheat, low-oxygen, 30mins boil, 1.033 OG, pitched BE-134, expecting it to go down to about 1.003 for ~4% ABV + a bit extra from the wine), and pitched the lacto starter earlier today (about 20 hours post-sacc-pitch). I think I got a bit too much of the calcium carbonate getting into the fermenter, I hope that doesn't hurt the batch 👀

I will probably mix the white wine in tomorrow (a single bottle this time), but I will measure the sulfite with some strips I have, and try the expend them if I see that the value is high.
Guys... I thought my L. Plantarum always stopped at around 3.1-3.3 👀

2020-10-22 17.32.18.jpg


I didn't calibrate my pH-meter this time because I'm out of solution so measurement could be off. But it tastes quite a bit more sour than last time (but FG is lower too, which probably has an effect on perception, and yeast is different too).

I used the same procedure as last time, but I pitched the lacto started earlier (+20hs since sacc pitch, was +24hs last time, and I got a bit of the calcium carbonate into the fermenter). FG is 1.002, fermentation temperature was quite a bit higher, and I used a different yeast (19C with WLP029 vs 21C->25C with BE-134 this time).

I have not added the white wine yet because I'm going to do that when I bottle, and I haven't had the time yet (will probably do so tomorrow or saturday).

Anyway, it tastes quite good, just a bit little sulphury right now, but thats going to be going away with a bit of time.
 
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Next one will be using WLP644 again so it fully attenuates along with the 3 different bretts i have.
Don't be surprised if it doesn't get down to 1.000 or lower. I had one with WLP644 + Brett + Lacto + glucoamylase finish at s.g. 1.002.

I didn't calibrate my pH-meter this time
I'd certainly question the reading.

FYI I've read warnings about getting the calcium carbonate in the fermenter, but from what I can tell, it only makes the beer more sour.

....
Glad you guys are making great sour beer!
Cheers
 

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My latest co-sour reached 3.2. Wow sour but delicious! Quick question my glucoamylase just arrived in the mail. I've heard or read that the enzyme can easily be transferred to a different brew without rigorous cleaning methods. Like for example my biab bag. Is this a thing?
 
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My latest co-sour reached 3.2. Wow sour but delicious! Quick question my glucoamylase just arrived in the mail. I've heard or read that the enzyme can easily be transferred to a different brew without rigorous cleaning methods. Like for example my biab bag. Is this a thing?
An enzyme is simply a protein, so it is removed by standard cleaning methods using an alkaline step like PBW.

Glucoamylase is by far most effective when used in the fermenter rather than during the mash, so it shouldn't generally touch your BIAB bag.

Happy to answer any questions. Cheers!
 

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Thanks for the quick reply! So a bottling bucket and transferring siphon (in my case) just need to be cleaned with PBW? Perfect thanks again. I also added some brett dregs that I cultured for a week to a number of thicker bottles and am looking forward to comparing them in the future! I used a disposable pipette to add the brett, it was a bit clunky but relatively easy.
 
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Thanks for the quick reply! So a bottling bucket and transferring siphon (in my case) just need to be cleaned with PBW? Perfect thanks again. I also added some brett dregs that I cultured for a week to a number of thicker bottles and am looking forward to comparing them in the future! I used a disposable pipette to add the brett, it was a bit clunky but relatively easy.
Yeah that sounds fine.
Be aware that if you're adding Brett to beer that's already sour and fermented, the character will most likely be muted due to the sourness and it probably take a while to develop (a few months).
 

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Yup thanks. I was planning on giving one a try around Christmas. I've been a little gun shy to go all in on a Brett beer so this is like my gateway attempt. Thanks again. It's been nice to have you around for all the advice! Also the website looks good too!
 

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Made a Lacto starter today for a kind of sour belgian witt, I'm brewing it tomorrow or Monday depending on how the lacto goes.

The only doubt I have is regarding the hop tea, which is the minimum amount of time I should boil it? I know we are looking to isomerize alpha acids, but for how long? I will be relaying on other herbs for bittering so I just need enough AA to stop the lacto activity
I'm pretty lost regarding the volume of the hop tea too, as it's a low ABV beer, I need to use the minimum amount posible to avoid diluting the beer too much, how much hop tea do I need to effectively stop souring in a 1 Gallon batch?
 

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So I made a sour beer last year using these methods. It worked, but it wasn't interesting... I just made a super basic beer, co-fermented with US-05, then an attempt at a hop tea.

There's a lot of good ideas in here, but are there any actual recipes to follow? I'd like to do something with fruit.
 

fendersrule

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I've made plenty of fruit sours that people love. You can look back a few threads where I should have posted plenty of info.
 
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The only doubt I have is regarding the hop tea, which is the minimum amount of time I should boil it?
I have good results boiling it 5–10 minutes. You could also just bring the water to a boil and just let the hops steep

For 1 gallon I would use at least 0.1 oz hops depending on how much flavor you want, and around 100mL water.

Dry hopping is also an option since isomerization is not necessary.
 
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