Fast Souring - Modern Methods

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
I have good results boiling it 5–10 minutes. You could also just bring the water to a boil and just let the hops steep

For 1 gallon I would use at least 0.1 oz hops depending on how much flavor you want, and around 100mL water.

Dry hopping is also an option since isomerization is not necessary.
Thanks

I'm thinking in giving it a DH too, but after the hop tea
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
So today I did the DH as I was planning on a moderate sourness to make it more refreshing but not full sour

It took nearly a week to sour it to this point, is it possible that some of the herbs I added, made the lacto go slower? I pitched the whole 200ml of starter to a 1 gallon batch
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,217
Reaction score
7,574
Location
Cleveland
is it possible that some of the herbs I added, made the lacto go slower?
That's fairly unlikely based on the limited research I've done with gruit herbs. However many other factors can affect the perception of sourness or the Lacto activity, so it would be difficult for me to determine the likely cause without a lot more details.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
That's fairly unlikely based on the limited research I've done with gruit herbs. However many other factors can affect the perception of sourness or the Lacto activity, so it would be difficult for me to determine the likely cause without a lot more details.
That's what I thought, I added them because I assumed it wouldn't affect as they are not really antibacterial like it was thought in the past

I will try to take a pH reading but my pH meter is probably the less accurate one in the whole world, so let's see
 

tizoc

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
26
Brewed this yesterday (50/50 pils/wheat, low-oxygen, 30mins boil, 1.033 OG, pitched BE-134, expecting it to go down to about 1.003 for ~4% ABV + a bit extra from the wine), and pitched the lacto starter earlier today (about 20 hours post-sacc-pitch). I think I got a bit too much of the calcium carbonate getting into the fermenter, I hope that doesn't hurt the batch 👀

I will probably mix the white wine in tomorrow (a single bottle this time), but I will measure the sulfite with some strips I have, and try the expend them if I see that the value is high.
Update on this one: I'm very happy with the result, this beer is very "champagney", which is what I was aiming for. I think it would be good even without the wine, but the white wine really adds an extra. I think a single bottle in a 20L batch is plenty, and I would not add more. I really liked BE-134 as the sacc yeast to use along with the lacto, the high attenuation makes all the flavors come through and it tastes very "bright".

I brewed a stronger (1.051->1.008) one with WB-06 and a far more complex grist (55/29/10/4/2 pils/munich/caramunich III/special b/chocolat) that I bottled a week ago. I added a bottle of natural (without added sulfites) Tannat wine. Although it is still too early, I gave it a taste yesterday: there was still yeast in suspension and it tasted a bit yeasty, but otherwise was shaping into something very interesting already.

Will be brewing a few non-sour beers next to re-fill my empty kegs, but once I get back to this I plan to also add brett in the next wine-sour (just got some glucoamylase, so that I can use the fast method). Either that or I will start experimenting with hop additions after the souring is complete.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,217
Reaction score
7,574
Location
Cleveland
Update on this one: I'm very happy with the result, this beer is very "champagney", which is what I was aiming for. I think it would be good even without the wine, but the white wine really adds an extra. I think a single bottle in a 20L batch is plenty, and I would not add more. I really liked BE-134 as the sacc yeast to use along with the lacto, the high attenuation makes all the flavors come through and it tastes very "bright".

I brewed a stronger (1.051->1.008) one with WB-06 and a far more complex grist (55/29/10/4/2 pils/munich/caramunich III/special b/chocolat) that I bottled a week ago. I added a bottle of natural (without added sulfites) Tannat wine. Although it is still too early, I gave it a taste yesterday: there was still yeast in suspension and it tasted a bit yeasty, but otherwise was shaping into something very interesting already.

Will be brewing a few non-sour beers next to re-fill my empty kegs, but once I get back to this I plan to also add brett in the next wine-sour (just got some glucoamylase, so that I can use the fast method). Either that or I will start experimenting with hop additions after the souring is complete.
Sounds great!

Today I'm attempting a low-oxygen mixed-fermentation sour with Brett. If successful, I assume this will be the first beer of its kind ever produced.

Cheers
 

goodolarchie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
172
Reaction score
101
It seems like Facebook has that effect on people.
Facebook is the reason I'm here, and not there. Frankly I think the MTF crew made a mistake hitching their wagon to that platform in terms of moving the discussion and mixed-ferm community forward, but I'm incredibly grateful for the wiki / podcast.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in the "let the bugs live" movement, even if it means delay pitching sacch/brett or using hops. I'd rather just use some weapons-grade Lacto / Pedio that I know will strip the tarmac off the airport grounds if it were allowed..
 

Dgallo

If you ain’t first, you’re last Ricky Bobby
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
4,575
Reaction score
7,855
Location
Albany
Facebook is the reason I'm here, and not there. Frankly I think the MTF crew made a mistake hitching their wagon to that platform in terms of moving the discussion and mixed-ferm community forward, but I'm incredibly grateful for the wiki / podcast.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in the "let the bugs live" movement, even if it means delay pitching sacch/brett or using hops. I'd rather just use some weapons-grade Lacto / Pedio that I know will strip the tarmac off the airport grounds if it were allowed..
I’m lost, why are you upset about the MTF fb group. The same knowledgeable people are in that group that are in here. Granted there is bad advice on there from ppl but you get just as bad advice on HBT as you would on there lol
 

goodolarchie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2018
Messages
172
Reaction score
101
I’m lost, why are you upset about the MTF fb group. The same knowledgeable people are in that group that are in here. Granted there is bad advice on there from ppl but you get just as bad advice on HBT as you would on there lol
The group is great, the platform is awful, and holding them hostage apparently. If you want to know more about why it's bad, feel free to PM me.
 

Dgallo

If you ain’t first, you’re last Ricky Bobby
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
4,575
Reaction score
7,855
Location
Albany
The group is great, the platform is awful, and holding them hostage apparently. If you want to know more about why it's bad, feel free to PM me.
Gotcha. I thought you were referring to the group, my bad. FB itself is terrible, once they gave themselves the rights to terminate post that “go against the mission of fb” they became the biggest censored media outlet in the world.
 

Beer666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
388
Reaction score
377
DSC_0087.JPG

3.2kg pilsner
600g wheat malt
500g oat malt
500g flaked wheat

Fermented at 25c with WLP644 and WLP653 and WLP4203 brett with 2ml of gluco. Added WLP673 lactobacillus buchneri and OL lacto about 3 days later. 25g of American heavy toast oak cubes and 75g of El Dorado. Very sour, crisp, dry, earthy, lots of fruit, Only six weeks old and so much flavour. Finished at 1002 so i could of use more gluco i guess.
I think it had 2 weeks warm then left in the garage for a month. Had a hint of smoke when i tasted it a three weeks ago and i was paranoid about a tcp twang but that has gone now even in the cold. Perhaps i was imagining it or it was yeast as its so drinkable now its hard to put down. Heavily over carbed this but it settles down and makes an amazing head. Nice lacing and good head retention as well. Rally happy to have this on tap.
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
220
Reaction score
21
Location
Brooklyn
RPh_Guy,

Are you still doing the Post Sour method where you pitch Sacch first, then pitch lacto after a couple days? I'm currently trying this method right now, I'll report back once the beer is done. I've pitched lacto first, then Sacch with very good results. Just want to make sure that wasn't a typo.
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,217
Reaction score
7,574
Location
Cleveland
RPh_Guy,

Are you still doing the Post Sour method where you pitch Sacch first, then pitch lacto after a couple days? I'm currently trying this method right now, I'll report back once the beer is done. I've pitched lacto first, then Sacch with very good results. Just want to make sure that wasn't a typo.
Yep, I'm brewing another post-sour as we speak. Trying out some GoodBelly this time; I just made the starter and I'll pitch when it reaches around 50% attenuation.
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
220
Reaction score
21
Location
Brooklyn
Gotcha. I pitched some Kveik yesterday and pitched some Wildbrew Sour Pitch today. Goodbelly has been very consistent for me but it's tough to get locally. I'll report back as the process goes.

Thx again.
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
220
Reaction score
21
Location
Brooklyn
So I just added some peach puree to my Berlinner Weisse. Fermentation was done so I did a soft cold crash to 50F for a day then dumped the yeast. Will the puree mix uniformly? I don't want to shake the fermenter but I also don't want a layer of puree sitting underneath the rest of the beer.
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
220
Reaction score
21
Location
Brooklyn
Just following up on this. For those that add purees into your fermenter, do you have a problem with the puree settling at the bottom and not mixing fully into the beer?
 

dlutter

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
123
Reaction score
35
Location
Wamego, KS
I've never had a problem with it settling and not fermenting. Usually it jump starts a pretty vigorous fermentation and the a fairly thick fluffy layer of what I'm going to call trub (or maybe lees is a better term?) when it is done.

Did yours start fermenting or is it still just sitting there? Might need to warm it up.
 

ShaLaH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
220
Reaction score
21
Location
Brooklyn
I've never had a problem with it settling and not fermenting. Usually it jump starts a pretty vigorous fermentation and the a fairly thick fluffy layer of what I'm going to call trub (or maybe lees is a better term?) when it is done.
Gotcha. I dropped the yeast so I'm not sure there will be any further fermentation.
 

dlutter

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
123
Reaction score
35
Location
Wamego, KS
Gotcha. I dropped the yeast so I'm not sure there will be any further fermentation.
There should still be yeast in suspension, even after a cold crash. Might just need to warm it up. Worst case scenario if it does not take off just pitch a packet of the recipe yeast or something neutral.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
Has anyone used that method for a traditional Berliner weisse? I'm planning on brewing one between the end of this month and mid February to have it ready in the spring. I want to use brett at secondary but I'm not sure how it'll work once the beer is already sour and if it will make the brett even slower
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,217
Reaction score
7,574
Location
Cleveland
You can make a fast sour with Brett flavor in a matter of days using a post-sour method, large active Brett pitch along with the Saccharomyces, and glucoamylase. The result is much like a traditional Berliner.

The process is described in detail on my wiki (PM me if you need the link).
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
You can make a fast sour with Brett flavor in a matter of days using a post-sour method, large active Brett pitch along with the Saccharomyces, and glucoamylase. The result is much like a traditional Berliner.

The process is described in detail on my wiki (PM me if you need the link).
Is the glucoamylase a must? Not the easiest thing to find where I live.

I was thinking about using kveik but I understand that the idea is to leave no sugar behind so it doesn't take that much for brett to reach terminal SG and be safe to package? So maybe it can be interesting to use a STA1 + strain and a really fermentable mash regime
 
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,217
Reaction score
7,574
Location
Cleveland
Is the glucoamylase a must? Not the easiest thing to find where I live.

I was thinking about using kveik but I understand that the idea is to leave no sugar behind so it doesn't take that much for brett to reach terminal SG and be safe to package? So maybe it can be interesting to use a STA1 + strain and a really fermentable mash regime
It's not always a requirement, but I would be very cautious without it.

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but in my experimenting with WLP644 (a diastaticus variant Sacch strain) and WY5526 combined with a highly fermentable wort, adding glucoamylase still brought the FG down a few points. So, there's definitely a possibility of prolonged fermentation in some cases if glucoamylase isn't used. A highly aggressive strain like Belle Saison would be your best bet to try this method if you can't acquire the enzyme.
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
It's not always a requirement, but I would be very cautious without it.

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but in my experimenting with WLP644 (a diastaticus variant Sacch strain) and WY5526 combined with a highly fermentable wort, adding glucoamylase still brought the FG down a few points. So, there's definitely a possibility of prolonged fermentation in some cases if glucoamylase isn't used. A highly aggressive strain like Belle Saison would be your best bet to try this method if you can't acquire the enzyme.
I will try that
It's not always a requirement, but I would be very cautious without it.

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but in my experimenting with WLP644 (a diastaticus variant Sacch strain) and WY5526 combined with a highly fermentable wort, adding glucoamylase still brought the FG down a few points. So, there's definitely a possibility of prolonged fermentation in some cases if glucoamylase isn't used. A highly aggressive strain like Belle Saison would be your best bet to try this method if you can't acquire the enzyme.
Then Belle Saison it is, with my Saison mash regime I can get it down to 1.000 SG. I can't find glucoamylase as no homebrew shop stocks it now and everything at eBay seems to be coming from the States which means expensive shipping and issues at customs.

If I sour the wort first I will reduce yeast character, I don't want to much phenols in my Berliner so I guess I'll be fermenting low and after there's a good level of sourness already, I'll be using swapping part of the grist with dextrose to ensure a good attenuation too
 

tizoc

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
26
@OldDogBrewing The beer I described here (1.033 -> 1.002 for 94% AA, mashed for fermentability) using BE-134 was fermented at 19C (then free rise) with the lacto starter pitched at 20hs after the yeast pitch and it is not phenolic. Another (non-sour, a table-saison with the same OG, FG and yeast) I brewed a while back was not phenolic either, unlike higher OG beers I have fermented with BE-134 (but maybe it was just coincidence).
 

OldDogBrewing

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2020
Messages
384
Reaction score
300
@OldDogBrewing The beer I described here (1.033 -> 1.002 for 94% AA, mashed for fermentability) using BE-134 was fermented at 19C (then free rise) with the lacto starter pitched at 20hs after the yeast pitch and it is not phenolic. Another (non-sour, a table-saison with the same OG, FG and yeast) I brewed a while back was not phenolic either, unlike higher OG beers I have fermented with BE-134 (but maybe it was just coincidence).
I've never tried that yeast but it sounds that what you describe is more related to the temperature, at low temps saison yeast is way less phenolic than at higher temps
 

tizoc

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
31
Reaction score
26
Probably, although I always pitched it at the same temperature, with the free-rise I would expect for the higher OG fermentations to produce more temperature and end higher.
 

Beer666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
388
Reaction score
377
This is my latest no boil no chill sour. WLP644 and Omega lacto. Oaked and dry hopped with el dorado. The lacto was added after 72 hours and its really sour. Took ages to finish fermenting but its a nice beer so worth the wait.
20210127_155450.jpg
 

Beer666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
388
Reaction score
377
No boil Red sour, 100% brett beersel blend and lacto. Dry hopped with saaz and oaked. Took about 6 weeks to finish fermenting but well worth the wait. Its crisp and fruity, possibly more complex yeast blend than the other single strains. I added the lacto after a week and this is still tart. Very happy with this and nice to have a red on tap.
20210204_202003.jpg
 

brownni5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
764
Reaction score
326
Does anyone know whether any breweries have adopted the modern fast souring method or if they rely on kettle souring? A friend of mine is ramping up to start a small brewery, and has asked my advise on kettle souring. Of course I pointed him to this method, but was unsure what concerns this might have at the brewery level - I can't think of any, but I don't know what happens at a brewery, either.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
Messages
701
Reaction score
1,089
Location
Torrance
This might be a bit off-topic (there might be a better thread for this question), but I am not particularly happy with the flavor of my saisons. I would like the lemon-pepper flavors to shine (and some tartness), while muting the bubblegum-fruit. I have been using a mix of DuPont/Allagash harvested from bottles, but not getting what I want out of it.
 

brownni5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
764
Reaction score
326
This might be a bit off-topic (there might be a better thread for this question), but I am not particularly happy with the flavor of my saisons. I would like the lemon-pepper flavors to shine (and some tartness), while muting the bubblegum-fruit. I have been using a mix of DuPont/Allagash harvested from bottles, but not getting what I want out of it.
Yeah, probably better threads than this one, but I might recommend Jovaru from Omega - not a true Saison yeast, but is POF+ and diastaticus, so it behaves much like one. After the initial bubblegum phase (3- weeks post-pitch), it gets really lemon-peppery. Also a touch tart without bacteria. I love Saison Dupont, but I can't make that yeast behave properly for me.
 

Beer666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
388
Reaction score
377
Few more questions regarding the fast funky sour method. Thanks in advance.

If i reuse yeast with gluco it it will it be active in the next batch?
Is this style with gluco unsuitable for a solera?
I am thinking of trying my red beer base with gluco. Do you foresee any issues due to the high amount of crystal malt?
Has anyone used red-x for sour with brett and gluco?
If i use a POF+ yeast will i get more flavour from the brett?
 

brownni5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Messages
764
Reaction score
326
Few more questions regarding the fast funky sour method. Thanks in advance.

If i reuse yeast with gluco it it will it be active in the next batch?
Is this style with gluco unsuitable for a solera?
I am thinking of trying my red beer base with gluco. Do you foresee any issues due to the high amount of crystal malt?
Has anyone used red-x for sour with brett and gluco?
If i use a POF+ yeast will i get more flavour from the brett?
I can answer questions #2 and #5, I think.

If you're willing to wait for a solera, then why use the fast sour method? These types of beers don't benefit from aging. I utilize soleras, but use the old fashioned method of souring. Neither produces inherently better beer.

I use Brett almost exclusively with POF+ yeast ( an Old Ale with Imperial Darkness and 2 strains of Brett C aging right now would be the exception), and I've learned that any time Brett is involved, it could be a bit of a crap shoot. The commercial breweries seem to have it dialed in, but there is less variability with their primary strains and house cultures, as least compared to me. Still, they produce dumpers. So, it takes some experimentation to see what you like me best.

Those may help, they may not. Sorry, no experience with glucoamalase, so I can't help there.
 

sykesey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2019
Messages
57
Reaction score
44
Does anyone know whether any breweries have adopted the modern fast souring method or if they rely on kettle souring? A friend of mine is ramping up to start a small brewery, and has asked my advise on kettle souring. Of course I pointed him to this method, but was unsure what concerns this might have at the brewery level - I can't think of any, but I don't know what happens at a brewery, either.
Really can't remember where i saw it now but there was a lallemand presentation recently where they had an example of a commercial beer using the co-pitch method.

EDIT - Found it! https://www.brewersassociation.org/...abHour_A-Journey-Through-IPA_Presentation.pdf - page 25. Beer is "Fen & Vale Sour" by Vocation Brewing x Pastore

also white labs has released Appalachian tart yeast which is basically lacto (probably l.brevis) + sacc together.
 
Last edited:

Beer666

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
388
Reaction score
377
I can answer questions #2 and #5, I think.

If you're willing to wait for a solera, then why use the fast sour method? These types of beers don't benefit from aging. I utilize soleras, but use the old fashioned method of souring. Neither produces inherently better beer.

I use Brett almost exclusively with POF+ yeast ( an Old Ale with Imperial Darkness and 2 strains of Brett C aging right now would be the exception), and I've learned that any time Brett is involved, it could be a bit of a crap shoot. The commercial breweries seem to have it dialed in, but there is less variability with their primary strains and house cultures, as least compared to me. Still, they produce dumpers. So, it takes some experimentation to see what you like me best.

Those may help, they may not. Sorry, no experience with glucoamalase, so I can't help there.
Makes sense now. I brew 25l batches so was thinking I could add the odd 5l gluco beer leftover from kegging into a solera instead of bottling. Perhaps I will steer clear of that now and bottle it.
 

Spikybits

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
184
Reaction score
75
Location
Lakewood CA
Attempting to Post sour with Voss. I used the below probiotic after primary and after 48 hours, barely a hint of sour. Pitched 2 (opened and dumped) in capsules

1. Any opinions on this probiotic with L.P?
2. Would it help to make a larger starter with this probiotic and pitch back into the fermenter. Would the extra gravity points boost the lacto production?

Currently have it sitting at 93 degrees for just under 40 hours since last sample (my thinking is temp increase would possibly increase lacto production?). I am going to sample again this afternoon.

EDIT - was the slightest sour - barely - slight sour smell but not close to being as sour as the 2 kettle sours I've done pitching whole grain.

Swansons is back in stock on azon so I ordered that.

Screen Shot 2021-03-12 at 8.27.39 AM.png

Screen Shot 2021-03-12 at 8.27.47 AM.png


Thank you for the help!
 
Last edited:
OP
RPh_Guy

RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
9,217
Reaction score
7,574
Location
Cleveland
Sorry for the delayed response.

If i reuse yeast with gluco it it will it be active in the next batch?
Presumably, yes, although the amount will be much smaller. So it likely won't reach its full potential.

Is this style with gluco unsuitable for a solera?
It's perfectly fine in my opinion.

I am thinking of trying my red beer base with gluco. Do you foresee any issues due to the high amount of crystal malt?
I haven't tested high amounts of crystal with this method. However, I suspect it would be OK to use.

If i use a POF+ yeast will i get more flavour from the brett?
That's a good question I've been wondering myself.

If you're willing to wait for a solera, then why use the fast sour method? These types of beers don't benefit from aging.
The "fast and funky" beers (created with a modern mixed fermentation with Sacc + Brett + Lacto) that he was asking about do generally benefit from some aging.

Attempting to Post sour with Voss. I used the below probiotic after primary and after 48 hours, barely a hint of sour. Pitched 2 (opened and dumped) in capsules

1. Any opinions on this probiotic with L.P?
2. Would it help to make a larger starter with this probiotic and pitch back into the fermenter. Would the extra gravity points boost the lacto production?
I suggest always making a starter because of issues like this. Sometimes probiotics are not stored properly and the viability is very low. Sorry it didn't quite work out this time.
 

stealthfixr

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2012
Messages
197
Reaction score
76
Location
Tucson
Barrel or Foeder? Seems like foeders like the one David Heath recently covered are very nice, but now $1100. Seems a similarly sized barrel can be found at MoreBeer for $359 plus shipping. Thoughts?
 
Top