Failure of Brewha BIAC

[brewman !]

I doubt this was caused by vacuum. If it was, it would have pulled in the lid a bit too.

As far as I am concerned, this thing is a pressure vessel. They might have designed it for 3 PSI and warn against using it at higher pressures, but the fact remains that higher pressures CAN develop when using it, in the jacket and in the vessel itself and thus it needs pressure control of some sort on both the jacket and on the vessel itself.

As far as I am concerned, designing a vessel for 3 PSI is terrible. Its way too easy to exceed that, especially when a common application will be to connect it to a house water supply which is commonly greater than 40 PSI. You had to see this failure coming and even if you warn against it, it would only take one small mishap (valve shut, hose kink, pluggage) to have an incident.

I call this a fragile product. It works as long as you use it exactly right. It fails catastrophically if you don't. I avoid fragile products like the plague.

At the very least they needed to have warning stickers ON THE VESSEL ITSELF, both for the jacket and for the fermentation chamber. You cannot rely on the end user to read and know everything on a website and remember it every single time a product is used, especially when its a long lifetime product and it will have multiple users over its lifetime.

 

[jeffreybandel]

This is Nathan from BREWHA. I fully support my products as many customers on this forum have attested.

The jackets on the BREWHA Boil Kettle and Jacketed 3-in-1 conical allow brewers to have chemical-free sanitation and reduced equipment by providing a means to chill wort after the boil is completed, right inside the 3-in-1. It also provides a convenient and easy means for regulation of fermentation temperature. With it, additional chillers are not needed which add cost, time, and increased risk of microbial contamination. These jackets and vessels are not designed to withstand high pressure. High pressure would require the use of thicker steel and require pressure certification, which would push the price of the equipment significantly higher.

I make it very clear on my website, emails sent to customers and through other marketing that the vessel pressure should not go over 3psi and the vessels’ exits should not be restricted in any way (other than a short blow-off hose which does not let pressure or a vacuum occur). It is the brewer’s responsibility to ensure that this is adhered to. If this is followed, the vessel will not deform from pressure or vacuum.

Aside from the above, the customer in this situation did not provide any proof of a blockage caused by the design or a manufacturer’s fault. When I asked for some evidence that I could show my supplier, I was sent a photo of a few flecks in his hand of what appears to be welding/carbon soot that he had removed from the wall inside the jacket, where it cannot be cleaned from polishing. There were no pictures or evidence provided of actual blockage that would cause pressure buildup. I asked about the possibility of a vacuum forming and he responded that a cap was resting on the port. If it was just the cap, and not sealed, air should have been permitted to enter to eliminate any vacuum so I did not conclude it was a vacuum. Twice I asked for photographs showing the brewing setup when it happened to try and understand the situation more and work towards finding a probable cause and solution, and neither time were these provided.

Based on the evidence I received, I responded to him several days ago proposing one of three courses of action. The first was for him to take the vessel to a metal repair shop such as an autobody or metal fab shop that could push the inside back out so the Mash Colander could still fit. The second was to purchase a replacement 20 gallon jacketed 3-in-1 vessel that I offered to him at below my cost. The third was to ship it all back, and I would have a shop here push it back out and refund 100% of his purchase less the cost of having the vessel fixed here.

Regarding the communication between Nathan and I, his post is misleading and not representative of the actual dialogue. When I get time, I will take screen shots of the emails and post what was actually communicated.

The simple fact is I provided Nathan the exact same pictures (plus some) and descriptions as I posted here. The good people on this site helped and came to a conclusion within a day because they wanted to. Brewha did not.

 

[jeffreybandel]

if you read all the post, Nathan tried to work with person, even refused to give nathan more proof or info so nathan could work with OP, person even insisted wasnt vacuum, that was manufacturing, but every one here confirmed was vacuum just from images.

Hi Jason,

What you said is false. I did not refuse to provide more proof. That is ridiculous. You may chose to believe everything Nathan tells you and that is your choice.

 

[rockydog101]

I'm not sure it really needs to come with a water pressure regulator - it's just something else to add to the price. Not everyone will want one, not everyone will need one, etc.

I have had my BIAC for close to a year now, and I know that when I received my conical, there was a blog post about municipal water pressure and the jacket. It had specific recommendations on how to prevent the jacket from deforming. Sure, it would be nice if the BIAC came with the pressure regulator, however, once the customer is informed of the risks, it's their own responsibility to prevent them from happening.

It's no different than a PRV for the lid - sure it would be nice if it came with one, but it doesn't...so I've been on the search to try and find one that conforms to the ratings on the BIAC. This isn't BREWHA's responsibility though; they've informed us of the risk of pressure building up during fermentation and vacuum during chilling, and have provided suggestions on how to prevent it from happening. IMO, that's all they need to do.

So a single blog post is sufficient to inform the consumer that their $5000 toy can be ruined? I didn't know that when I buy a product I'm obligAted to look for the companies blog and read every post they've made just in case they posted something describing a critical failure of their design.

Sure seems like important information like that should come in an instruction manual.

 

[Jimmy82]

So a single blog post is sufficient to inform the consumer that their $5000 toy can be ruined? I didn't know that when I buy a product I'm obligAted to look for the companies blog and read every post they've made just in case they posted something describing a critical failure of their design.

Sure seems like important information like that should come in an instruction manual.

Like I said. It's not like you had to go looking for it - he sends you all of the information when you buy the rig.

 

[Jimmy82]

It's funny how everyone complaining about the lack of communication hasn't actually dealt with BREWHA. If you read the other thread with all of the actual BREWHA owners posting in it, you'll see that the customer support and communication is excellent.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Jimmy, the fact remains that you are one customer of his that doesn't mind the way the documentation is setup. We are the majority and we are potential customers who will keep Brewha in business. If the vast majority of us think there should be an actual manual for a piece of equipment like this then Nathan may want to listen. Again we the future customer need to be assured that the money we invest in this product is warranted. I would never buy this because I already have a brewery, but those that may look at this as a viable all in one setup are not the kind of customer who is going to research and spec out the safety devices needed to run this correctly.

Now we hear that what the OP says happened and what Nathan said are at odds with each other. Based on the facts and the tone of the response from Nathan, Im inclined to believe the OP. Sending the conical to an auto body shop to bang it back into shape really shows the lack of understanding of the product he sells. You will weaken the wall even more and the 3psi limit will be far less. There is just way too much ambiguity and logic is flawed. I really hope the OP gets this resolved.

 

[Jimmy82]

Jimmy, the fact remains that you are one customer of his that doesn't mind the way the documentation is setup. We are the majority and we are potential customers who will keep Brewha in business. If the vast majority of us think there should be an actual manual for a piece of equipment like this then Nathan may want to listen. Again we the future customer need to be assured that the money we invest in this product is warranted. I would never buy this because I already have a brewery, but those that may look at this as a viable all in one setup are not the kind of customer who is going to research and spec out the safety devices needed to run this correctly.

Now we hear that what the OP says happened and what Nathan said are at odds with each other. Based on the facts and the tone of the response from Nathan, Im inclined to believe the OP. Sending the conical to an auto body shop to bang it back into shape really shows the lack of understanding of the product he sells. You will weaken the wall even more and the 3psi limit will be far less. There is just way too much ambiguity and logic is flawed. I really hope the OP gets this resolved.

Sure, having a manual wouldn't be a BAD idea, but I don't think it changes the fact that he is already providing that information. Sure, he may include a manual going forward, but would that have changed your opinion on how this situation should be dealt with?

Also, he provided a perfectly reasonable option - sell him a replacement unit for $1000. Despite the fact that it's really not BREWHA's fault, they are offering a replacement at below cost and meeting the customer part way. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Owly055]

We can bicker about who's fault this is until the cows come home............ This is a classic example of Murphy's Law in action. There is always a string of bad decisions that lead to a disaster.

A pissing match between manufacturer and customer benefits nobody, particularly the manufacturer. Both parties obviously bear some blame here. The user for not making himself wise to all the operating information, and the manufacturer for not ensuring that Murphy's law would not play out.

The longer this continues, the more damage is done, the more sales lost, etc. It's a losing situation for Brewha that can only be turned to a winning situation in one way.

If I were the manufacturer, I would have immediately replaced the vessel, and made it clear that while it was the result of improper use, I was taking measures to ensure that there would not be a repeat.

Four changes need to be made here.

1: The most obvious is Education of users, and this can take the form of a good user's manual with cautions, and/or warning stickers

2: A vacuum relief valve

3: A pressure relief valve.......... too much water pressure and it blows on the floor

4: An orifice on the water inlet to limit flow, and ensure that outlet flow capacity is greater than inlet flow capacity


These changes need to be retrofitted to existing equipment as a "recall", and every owner needs to be contacted immediately.

Bad publicity caused by a product failure can be turned to good publicity by handling it speedily and graciously. It is made worse by arguing over who's fault it is and delaying resolution.

DO IT AND DO IT NOW........... Salvage what you can from this train wreck. It's already cost far more than the value of the ruined equipment..... How much more can you afford??

In addition it is worth looking at how to make the inner vessel more resistant to pressure and vacuum.

H.W.

 

[mdbrewer1]

My two cents. If I'm a potential customer reading through this thread, I wouldn't be thrilled to find out that the best resolution proposed by the company is to spend an extra 1K on top of the 5K I already invested. If I'm buying a complete system like this, I'd either want 1) a detailed setup and operation manual (or website, etc.) with warnings where appropriate, or 2) a system loaded with fail safes so that any missteps caused by a lack of details won't result in damage to the equipment.

I agree that a customer should have a general understanding of the equipment, but it is incumbent upon the seller to address any potential known sticking points like this via either installed equipment or explicit written instructions/warnings. Someone without experience in the design and operation of similar equipment may not recognize the existence or seriousness of a hazard that would seem fairly obvious to others.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Sure, having a manual wouldn't be a BAD idea, but I don't think it changes the fact that he is already providing that information. Sure, he may include a manual going forward, but would that have changed your opinion on how this situation should be dealt with?

Also, he provided a perfectly reasonable option - sell him a replacement unit for $1000. Despite the fact that it's really not BREWHA's fault, they are offering a replacement at below cost and meeting the customer part way. Seems reasonable to me.

Nathan err Im mean "Jimmy".

As a matter of fact my opinion would actually be changed if there was a physical manual provided with all the warnings included and a procedure in that manual so a home brewer could have it in hand to reference while brewing. If that was done and the OP damaged the conical then it would be on him. Thats what we are saying here, a simple complete manual included would have prevented such a long thread of discussion. It would have been an open and shut case. Its so easy to provide that it looks really weird when they are not provided.

I worked in the Nuclear Navy and in Nuclear power Plants so I know the need for good procedures. See one, do one and teach one is a good mantra. I know this isn't anywhere near the need of a NPP having procedures but it is a capital piece of equipment that can be easily damaged if "procedure" isn't followed. Its proven that procedure in hand (paper) results in better adherence than on a iPad or computer screen.

It just seems like your set up for failure on some points. A better job could and should have been done.

 

[Jimmy82]

Nathan err Im mean "Jimmy".

I can assure you I have no affiliation with BREWHA... I'm simply a customer who took the time to read through the suggested blog posts before using my BIAC. I like to know what I'm doing before operating a $5000 piece of equipment.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I'll continue happily brewing on my BIAC. Hopefully the OP and Nathan reach some sort of agreement...because despite my opinion on who is at fault, it really sucks and it's an unfortunate situation.

 

[JKoravos]

Some good lessons for potential business owners in this thread.

 

[snackson]

I've read over all the posts over the last day and I am astonished at some of the things people are saying. I am a current owner of a Brewhemoth and I am looking at purchasing a Brewha 3-in-1 and still planning on purchasing even after reading this thread. My Brewhemoth didn’t come with a manual and there is even less information on the web on how to set it up and use it.

What if I decided to fill it hot (no chill), seal it up, and wait until it cools down to pitch yeast in the morning? Whoops, it developed a vacuum on it. Is that their fault because I was ignorant? No, it’s not the manufacturers fault at all. Vacuum breakers and pressure regulators are all add on options.

The same can be said for any conical fermenter. Take a look at some of the Stout/Glacier/Brewer’s Hardware jacketed models. If someone decided to use their jacket on that to cool the same way the BIAC is done, then they could run into to same issue if they seal it up. Do they include manuals with their products? I doubt it.

How about fancy stainless or copper counter flow wort chillers, is there a manual with those that tells you how to hook them up or the pressure limits? No, but we still use them.

I feel the offer to replace the 3-in-1 for $1000 is pretty reasonable, ~63% of the original price. I feel horrible for the OP and would be extremely pissed off that I just ruined my new fermenter. It really sucks but I will tell you that plenty of people will learn from this and make sure they keep the lid loose while cooling. It’s an unfortunate mistake.

The bottom line is that when purchasing advanced brewing equipment you should do your research ahead of time before using it. Hopefully the two parties can come to an agreement of some sort that will appease both. I stand behind the fact that even after reading all of this, I am still going to purchase a 3-in-1.

 

[jeffmeh]

As a prior business owner, admittedly in a different field, I would be very concerned about my reputation equity, which is being put at risk regardless of what portion of true fault really belongs to the customer. The actions I would take would revolve around resolving the situation to the customer's satisfaction (and I would weigh my costs here against the potential costs to my reputation), and proactively preventing that situation from reoccurring. To the latter point, I would:
1) Make absolutely clear and prominent what precautions the customer must take to avoid over-pressurization or vacuum. A manual is critical here, even if it is an online manual, and that gives me the advantage of being able to update it as necessary. Some warning stickers on the product itself would also be worth it to me to avoid future problems.
2) Incorporate the recognition of these precautions in the purchasing process. One way to do this on the web would be to have the "default" configuration include the pressure reducer and the vacuum break, and the purchaser would have to affirmatively opt out of each with an appropriate reduction in price. Each of these items could have a clear description as to its function, and the potential consequences of omitting it.

The notion that the buyer "should know better," even if it is correct, would not be acceptable to me given the relatively low costs of preventing the situation.

 

[cuda6pak]

I'm simply a customer who took the time to read through the suggested blog posts before using my BIAC. I like to know what I'm doing before operating a $5000 piece of equipment.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I'll continue happily brewing on my BIAC. Hopefully the OP and Nathan reach some sort of agreement...because despite my opinion on who is at fault, it really sucks and it's an unfortunate situation.

^Agreed. I have absolutely nothing but great things to say about my medium BIAC and the customer service I've received from Nathan. It's unfortunate that despite the warnings and clear instructions not to overpressurize or pull a vacuum on the 3-in-1, that the damage still occurred.

I've read over all the posts over the last day and I am astonished at some of the things people are saying. I am a current owner of a Brewhemoth and I am looking at purchasing a Brewha 3-in-1 and still planning on purchasing even after reading this thread. My Brewhemoth didn’t come with a manual and there is even less information on the web on how to set it up and use it.

What if I decided to fill it hot (no chill), seal it up, and wait until it cools down to pitch yeast in the morning? Whoops, it developed a vacuum on it. Is that their fault because I was ignorant? No, it’s not the manufacturers fault at all. Vacuum breakers and pressure regulators are all add on options.

The same can be said for any conical fermenter. Take a look at some of the Stout/Glacier/Brewer’s Hardware jacketed models. If someone decided to use their jacket on that to cool the same way the BIAC is done, then they could run into to same issue if they seal it up. Do they include manuals with their products? I doubt it.

How about fancy stainless or copper counter flow wort chillers, is there a manual with those that tells you how to hook them up or the pressure limits? No, but we still use them.

I feel the offer to replace the 3-in-1 for $1000 is pretty reasonable, ~63% of the original price. I feel horrible for the OP and would be extremely pissed off that I just ruined my new fermenter. It really sucks but I will tell you that plenty of people will learn from this and make sure they keep the lid loose while cooling. It’s an unfortunate mistake.

The bottom line is that when purchasing advanced brewing equipment you should do your research ahead of time before using it. Hopefully the two parties can come to an agreement of some sort that will appease both. I stand behind the fact that even after reading all of this, I am still going to purchase a 3-in-1.

Well said.

 

[davedickson]

I feel the OP's pain. I buckled the inner shell of my new medium BIAC on the very first use, despite having read all of the warnings about restricting the cooling water outlet. It took only a couple of seconds of thoughtlessly kinking the hose I had on the discharge to do the damage. With the pressure of a municipal system (mine is 80 psi), you can exceed 3 psi in a heartbeat.

After berating myself for a couple of days for messing up, I bought a hydraulic kit (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OQ3Y62/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) and, with a ram, a piece of 2x4 and about 30 minutes of effort, pushed the jacket more or less back into shape. There's no interference with the colander, the BIAC is fully functional, and - from the outside - the unit retains the stainless bling quality widely praised here.

I've been very careful on subsequent brewdays, but I recognize how easy it would be to repeat the problem. The only way to avoid it for sure is to have a pressure relief valve on the discharge, and it would be good if BREWHA would make it part of the standard package. I'm going to try a simple pvc standpipe on a T at the discharge rather than spend the big bucks for a commercial 3 psi relief valve or an upstream regulator. I'll post if it works.

I am still very pleased with the medium BIAC and with all of the interactions I've had with Nathan, from my first inquiries to the post-purchase advice he has provided.

 

[JKoravos]

I feel the OP's pain. I buckled the inner shell of my new medium BIAC on the very first use, despite having read all of the warnings about restricting the cooling water outlet. It took only a couple of seconds of thoughtlessly kinking the hose I had on the discharge to do the damage. With the pressure of a municipal system (mine is 80 psi), you can exceed 3 psi in a heartbeat.

Ouch. Just another reminder that this unit truly needs a pressure relief as standard equipment.

This goes for anyone. If you want to be in business for long, you better know when to step up when a 'mea culpa' is necessary. It doesn't matter whose fault it is here, the design is fundamentally flawed. That's on the company.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Heck the pressure of the water in the jacket if it was 12" tall would be .43psi static no flow. That's 14% of your 3 psi limit. Not too much wiggle room there.

 

[okbecker]

Blichmanns therminator only costs $200 and has an 8 page owners manual with it. I did not see a max psi listed then again I have never heard of one breaking down due to pressure. I run my garden hose full bore through it at about 80psi...works like a gem.

Then again, it's built really well.

 

[limulus]

Blichmanns therminator only costs $200 and has an 8 page owners manual with it. I did not see a max psi listed then again I have never heard of one breaking down due to pressure. I run my garden hose full bore through it at about 80psi...works like a gem.

Then again, it's built really well.

So exactly what is your point? My 40-plate chiller has never failed me either nor has my immersion chiller. I'm tired of useless posts like yours. They do nothing to help the guy who had a collapse.

 

[okbecker]

The point is - INCLUDE A MANUAL...BACKUP your product....if it's not built as good as it could be you better take damn good care of your customers! Obviously, the OP has not received any of the above.

 

[cantrell00]

Brewha dude noticably absent save his one post...

Tells me all I need to know..

 

[Gameface]

Meh. The OP has some responsibility here too. He needs to provide as much info as he can to the manufacturer and be willing to accept a reasonable offer for the damages.

If he's being vague or evasive I can understand the manufacturer being reluctant to foot the bill.

That said, it's in the best interest of a manufacturer to include fail safe measures so that people have a good experience with their product even if they have a lapse in judgement or are not experts on the engineering aspects of the product they paid good money for.

It should be well understood that many of us in this hobby DIY much of what we do. When someone spends 5k+ on a turn key system it's likely that they've done that because they don't have the background to make it them self for 1/3 the cost. Those people are paying a premium to have someone else engineer their system and provide them something that they, with their limited background, can use with confidence.

To expect people in that market to be experts on the equipment is absurd. If they were experts they would have saved a couple thousand and made it them self. All due respect to Jimmy82 who is an expert apparently but spent the money to have someone else do it for him anyway.

 

[orangehero]

Brewha dude noticably absent save his one post...

Tells me all I need to know..

Why do people think HomeBrewTalk is the customer service department of any brewing related business?

Just because you buy a turnkey system doesn't mean you have to be babysat through everything imaginable.

 

[geoffey]

So exactly what is your point? My 40-plate chiller has never failed me either nor has my immersion chiller. I'm tired of useless posts like yours. They do nothing to help the guy who had a collapse.

Seriously? You take the time to post a useless post about a post you find useless? I don't get people like you.

How do you not see exactly what his point is? He's saying that his purchase of a piece of equipment 1/20th the cost included a detailed owner's manual, so how can this system NOT include it? He's trying to supply further evidence to support the OP. Which is one of the reasons the OP would have posted here in the first place: to gather support for his situation.

 

[BrunDog]

...When someone spends 5k+ on a turn key system it's likely that they've done that because they don't have the background to make it them self for 1/3 the cost. Those people are paying a premium to have someone else engineer their system and provide them something that they, with their limited background, can use with confidence...

I don't think this is always accurate. Many DIY at a cost savings but at a tremendous time savings as well. I could build my on car if I wanted to by designing and building it myself, but I choose to buy a ready-made one because all the design and testing has been performed for me. I am not incapable, just make the choice for me.

Spending $5k on a pre-designed, tested, and built system does not mean you have a limited background... to the contrary, it states you probably have too many other things going on to do DIY.

-BD

 

[Gameface]

I don't think this is always accurate. Many DIY at a cost savings but at a tremendous time savings as well. I could build my on car if I wanted to by designing and building it myself, but I choose to buy a ready-made one because all the design and testing has been performed for me. I am not incapable, just make the choice for me.

Spending $5k on a pre-designed, tested, and built system does not mean you have a limited background... to the contrary, it states you probably have too many other things going on to do DIY.

-BD

You're right. But the point I was making that to have a system engineered for you you hope that they've included the same degree of fail safe design you would have included yourself, not a system with no failsafes and a kick in the ass if anything should go wrong.

 

[cantrell00]

Why do people think HomeBrewTalk is the customer service department of any brewing related business?

Just because you buy a turnkey system doesn't mean you have to be babysat through everything imaginable.

Not to babysit. To resolve a very public issue with a customer.

If he were smart, he would have put this to rest PUBLICLY some time ago.

 

[snackson]

Even if a vacuum breaker was included with the system what is to say that it would have been installed by the consumer? It's a horrible situation all around.

 

[brewguyver]

I'm in my hotel room and snapped this, because it sums up my opinion pretty well (and is what was called out by others before).

In a country where plastic bags come with suffocation labels and the majority of equipment you buy has a big warning page on the front of the label, this should have been marked up better.

Additionally, if it is "turnkey" it should come with *all* critical parts. Safety mechanisms aren't optional. Anyone who can afford $5000 can afford $5100 so Nathan can include the proper components like the vacuum breaker and pressure regulator as standard.

To use the car analogy, the rpm gauge and seat belt warning is to an optional component!

If those parts come pieced together out of the box, and it's the only way to use the product without jerryrigging it, then the liability is on the customer.

This isn't a case where the OP bought things piecemeal and broke something.

This is lesson for all of us who might release a product - either take the time to dummy proof it or don't frikkin sell it as a complete system.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1428402731.924568.jpg

 

[JoshuaW]

Even if a vacuum breaker was included with the system what is to say that it would have been installed by the consumer? It's a horrible situation all around.

Then it would very clearly be the customer's fault for not following instructions and utilizing all of the components provided. Unfortunately, that isnt the case.

I looked at the BIAC, and I feel like I dodged a bullet. Stupid stuff like this always seems to happen to me, and I feel like I would be the guy posting this thread if I had gone though with my purchase. Not exactly the best image for Brewha.

 

[BBdude]

Brewha dude noticably absent save his one post...

Tells me all I need to know..

... or perhaps the lack of empathy in their single post.

 

[geoffey]

Brewha dude noticably absent save his one post...

Tells me all I need to know..

I don't know. I think it tells you something that he showed up here at all. The last thing he should do is get too involved in arguments about his product on online forums.

 

[beernutz]

So both the OP jeffreybandel and davedickson have experienced this same failure with their Brewha BIACs? Anybody else?

 

[-CHRIS-]

I don't know. I think it tells you something that he showed up here at all. The last thing he should do is get too involved in arguments about his product on online forums.

Consumer marketing is social now, this forum is too important to ignore. This is where people come to research their purchases and get advice. Would I have spent $1500 at brewhardware.com if it wasn't for this forum, the behavior of the owner here and his stellar reputation? Probably not. The BBB is for your grandpa.

Back on topic, in my opinion, the BIAC is a fundamentally flawed design if city water pressure or an incorrect setting of a value will cause it to fail. At the price point, it should include commonly available devices to prevent over pressure and vacuum. The worst part about this situation is based on their "blog" posts they know this is a defect in the design and haven't taken steps to correct it.

Chris

 

[JKoravos]

It's good that this is coming out in the community, but these things take a little time to fix (this thread has only been up for 3 days). We should give Brewha time to come out with a real response to this issue that's been uncovered (hopefully that post wasn't the response). Owly had a pretty good run down of what would be a favorable response in post #129. Let's see what happens...

 

[Owly055]

Consumer marketing is social now, this forum is too important to ignore. This is where people come to research their purchases and get advice. Would I have spent $1500 at brewhardware.com if it wasn't for this forum, the behavior of the owner here and his stellar reputation? Probably not. The BBB is for your grandpa.

Back on topic, in my opinion, the BIAC is a fundamentally flawed design if city water pressure or an incorrect setting of a value will cause it to fail. At the price point, it should include commonly available devices to prevent over pressure and vacuum. The worst part about this situation is based on their "blog" posts they know this is a defect in the design and haven't taken steps to correct it.

Chris

Chris:

It is completely unrealistic to expect this kind of equipment to handle full city water pressure, or to withstand the full vacuum created during chilling. The result would be a very heavy and expensive piece of equipment.

It is however realistic to expect it to be provided with safety devices to prevent inadvertent destruction by so simple a thing as stepping on a hose, or resting something on top of a port in the lid absentmindedly. Murphy's law applies to all of us. As a pilot, I know the preflight procedures by heart, but religiously follow a checklist every single time for this reason. You can't expect a home brewer to follow a checklist every time he brews... even if perhaps he should. There are numerous ways someone could accidentally block the water outlet hose, and it would be easy to unthinkingly do what this user did.

Considering the fact that this is a more or less portable unit, not designed to be hard plumbed into water and drain.... designed to be hooked up anywhere with soft hoses, it's absolutely stupid NOT to have a pressure relief....... even something as simple as a rubber plug that blows out at 5 psi or wherever it really needs to relieve. Like a pressure cooker.

The vacuum issue should be less of a concern, but still a safety valve of some sort should prevent that.

The original owner may well know all of the safety precautions.. but down the line, who knows? The second or 5th owner, the brother in law who decides to brew while house sitting, etc. Warnings are a good thing, but not enough. My vehicles are full of seatbelt warnings........but they don't make me buckle up if I don't feel like it.

H.W.

 

[Hello]

I feel the OP's pain. I buckled the inner shell of my new medium BIAC on the very first use, despite having read all of the warnings about restricting the cooling water outlet. It took only a couple of seconds of thoughtlessly kinking the hose I had on the discharge to do the damage. With the pressure of a municipal system (mine is 80 psi), you can exceed 3 psi in a heartbeat.

After berating myself for a couple of days for messing up, I bought a hydraulic kit (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OQ3Y62/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) and, with a ram, a piece of 2x4 and about 30 minutes of effort, pushed the jacket more or less back into shape. There's no interference with the colander, the BIAC is fully functional, and - from the outside - the unit retains the stainless bling quality widely praised here.

I've been very careful on subsequent brewdays, but I recognize how easy it would be to repeat the problem. The only way to avoid it for sure is to have a pressure relief valve on the discharge, and it would be good if BREWHA would make it part of the standard package. I'm going to try a simple pvc standpipe on a T at the discharge rather than spend the big bucks for a commercial 3 psi relief valve or an upstream regulator. I'll post if it works.

I am still very pleased with the medium BIAC and with all of the interactions I've had with Nathan, from my first inquiries to the post-purchase advice he has provided.

That may be a very low cost solution to the OP's issue. Reading through this entire thread, I am convinced that if flow is restricted at all, for even a brief second, the jacket will buckle. I echo the statements made about including a PRV. If it could be included and put in place by the company, then it seems like they've done their due diligence.

The point is - INCLUDE A MANUAL...BACKUP your product....if it's not built as good as it could be you better take damn good care of your customers! Obviously, the OP has not received any of the above.

I would not say this thing is poorly made. The exclusion of a PRV does not deem a machine trash. Perhaps they did not consider this at the time. Perhaps to them it was obvious that restricting flow would result in such failure. Unfortunately companies do need to attempt to consider what failures could occur under normal use. I find a kinked hose normal use as long as it is immediately dealt with. Hoses kind. The issue is that it could happen and there appears to be no time to really fix it without some sort of damage occurring.

I agree with you 100%, include a manual. Even my control panel came with something and it was built by some guy in his house...I believe.

Exactly. Yet it still can't withstand household water pressure and doesn't come with any sort of PRV built in. Why should a homebrew setup come with this equipment?

Because clearly in an instant the inner jacket can buckle by merely kinking the hose for a second. If there is little to no documentation that this can happen INSIDE THE BOX, then how can you possibly assume a home brewer would know the ramifications of restricting flow for a literal second? I am personally glad to hear you're very happy with your BIAC, but that doesn't mean you have to be completely dismissive of the fact that a simple PRV could solve a potential issue.

 

[cantrell00]

I don't know. I think it tells you something that he showed up here at all. The last thing he should do is get too involved in arguments about his product on online forums.

I agree... He shouldn't get involved in a public grievance.

He should have been involved in a public resolution that reflected positive customer relations.

If he believed that this issue is truly a 1 in 10,000 type scenario then the prudent thing to do as a business owner is refund the money, eat the expense - consider it R&D cost, no different than any other cost of doing business.

We would all be discussing how great of a company Brewha is right now.