Failure of Brewha BIAC

[jeffreybandel]

Which is correct, and that's how I have mine set up. Maybe I misunderstood/misread, but I was under the impression you had a valve on the outlet of your BIAC jacket?

Either way, the only way to truly ensure pressure doesn't build up in the jacket is to regulate the pressure before it enters. There are options out there, and Nathan has always been upfront about the jacket pressure ratings.

I understand the 3psi pressure ratings. But if there is manufacturing FOD in the jacket that does not allow water to exit and pressure to build up to the point of destroying the system is that a user error? He does not have a pressure regulator installed on the instructional video and does not mention the need for one. I wonder who else out there has a pressure regulator installed?

 

[rockydog101]

I am in the market for a fancy all in one. The Brewha BIAC looked appealing because of the foot print. But here we have a $5,000 failure that a bunch of very experienced Brewers can't quite figure out and the company has basically told the customer to get bent and spend $1,000 to fix something without them (Brewha) seemingly having a full understanding of why their equipment failed.

As another poster said, I'm shocked Brewha didn't ask for your unit and use it to do tests. No thanks. Blichman, here I come.

 

[Jimmy82]

I understand the 3psi pressure ratings. But if there is manufacturing FOD in the jacket that does not allow water to exit and pressure to build up to the point of destroying the system is that a user error? He does not have a pressure regulator installed on the instructional video and does not mention the need for one. I wonder who else out there has a pressure regulator installed?

Sure, there shouldn't be FOD in the jacket, but that doesn't negate the fact that the customer should ensure they are not supplying higher pressure than the jacket can handle.

If a brewery orders a tank and it's rated to 15psi, the brewery is responsible to hook it up in a manner that will not exceed that pressure. If the supply pressure was the <5psi that the jacket is rated for, the FOD would not have caused damage.

 

[JKoravos]

A $5000 jacketed tank that can't handle household water pressure and no means of protecting against failure? You gotta be kidding me.

 

[jeffreybandel]

Sure, there shouldn't be FOD in the jacket, but that doesn't negate the fact that the customer should ensure they are not supplying higher pressure than the jacket can handle.

If a brewery orders a tank and it's rated to 15psi, the brewery is responsible to hook it up in a manner that will not exceed that pressure. If the supply pressure was the <5psi that the jacket is rated for, the FOD would not have caused damage.

I understand what you are saying. However I am not a professional brewer. I have been brewing for 25 years though. I cannot get over the fact that in their operational video on their website they do not use one, nor do they mention the need. Absent any other instructions that is what I followed.

 

[jeffreybandel]

One more thing: Brewha actually says the system should not be pressurized at all. If that is the case, how do you even hook up water to cool it?

 

[Jimmy82]

One more thing: Brewha actually says the system should not be pressurized at all. If that is the case, how do you even hook up water to cool it?

Really? Where did you see this?

 

[trimixdiver1]

Well we can all agree that this is an inferior product for the price they are charging. If they were going to send you another for a little more than 1k, their margin is large enough to just send you another and eat it.

Why some homebrew equipment suppliers think it's cute not to make an actual paper manual is beyond me, other than since nothing is documented on paper they can get away with stuff like this.

As an engineer I would make sure under normal conditions a failure like this shouldn't happen. Again a simple regulator included could have helped, and adding a set PRV on the jacket would prevent an over pressurizing of the jacket. A simple breather could have prevented a vacuum. This was not engineered, it was mocked up and sent to China.

This thread should prove as a warning to any other fledgling startups to do your due diligence and engineer your product correctly.

All this will do is make Brewha look bad, whether they are 100% wrong or 10% wrong. They can't afford bad press or us ripping apart their product, but for 5k this shouldn't happen. I hope Brewha wakes up and sees this as an opportunity to do an M&M and ensure this is corrected. If they don't, I fear they will pay the ultimate price by loosing a majority of their potential customers.

Make it right Brewha. Post a paper manual with real specifications. If you can't do that, you have no business selling a product.

 

[watermelon83]

Do the world a favor and file a BBB complaint. Lack of a response to that will go on record.

 

[Jimmy82]

I understand what you are saying. However I am not a professional brewer. I have been brewing for 25 years though. I cannot get over the fact that in their operational video on their website they do not use one, nor do they mention the need. Absent any other instructions that is what I followed.

You don't *need* one, but if you don't use something to decrease the pressure, you're doing so at your own risk.

It's like filling a tire. You know the pressure rating, but a compressor will surpass the tire pressure rating (and potentially make the tire fail). The tire manufacturer doesn't include a PRV in the tire - you're expected to not exceed the rated pressure on your own.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

A $5000 jacketed tank that can't handle household water pressure and no means of protecting against failure? You gotta be kidding me.

If the vessel in question was actually 5k, then I would feel the same way. The system costs around 5k, the tank is $1600... quite a difference. "Household water pressure" is not a standard in any part of the world that I am aware of, so its not really a valid argument to say that it can't handle it. Water pressure for me is near 80psi, and I can and have done damage with it. I do agree that some type of inlet regulator should be (have been) provided given the design limitations of the jacket.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Really? Where did you see this?

This shouldn't be a issue! Where is a manual that tells you this? Your telling me after I fork over 5k all I get is a YouTube video and a reference to some blog posts????

There shouldn't be any ambiguity relating to specifications, especially if it will destroy the product or put the user in potential danger.

 

[Jimmy82]

This shouldn't be a issue! Where is a manual that tells you this? Your telling me after I fork over 5k all I get is a YouTube video and a reference to some blog posts????

There shouldn't be any ambiguity relating to specifications, especially if it will destroy the product or put the user in potential danger.

This is the first I'm hearing about the "not pressurizing" and I can't find reference to it other than a customer stating it. The website specifies 5psi pressure for the vessel and jacket. I don't think that's ambiguous.

And like RiverCity mentioned - the cost of the conical itself isn't $5000; it's actually $1600...that's a big difference.

 

[philipCT]

I have one of these also but I have to play devil's advocate and say that if pressure from household water is such a concern, the BIAC should come with a pressure regulator. The pressure regulator that is being sold now is a new item not available when I bought mine in December and it is still an option and not standard equipment. But the one thing we do know is it is not recommended that you place a valve on the outlet of the jacket and if there was a valve on the outlet of the jacket, then I'm afraid this one may be a goner. I will be ordering a valve like this for mine.
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-...GabjoSy806mMo1wh-GQxTH9Z8k9VMw4OIUaAp0X8P8HAQ

Gee, I hope you don't use this. Note this message prominently displayed at the bottom of the web page for this item:

Note: This pressure regulator contains more than 0.25% lead and is illegal to use in any plumbing system providing water for human consumption anywhere in the United States.​

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

Gee, I hope you don't use this. Note this message prominently displayed at the bottom of the web page for this item:

Note: This pressure regulator contains more than 0.25% lead and is illegal to use in any plumbing system providing water for human consumption anywhere in the United States.​

Are you drinking the chilling water?

 

[limulus]

Are you drinking the chilling water?

You beat me to it

 

[Jimmy82]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

 

[Gameface]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

Using a brewing system and shampooing your hair are two completely different things. If the user follows the company's process for using the equipment and the equipment fails that's not all on the user.

Yeah, we all have to take a certain amount of responsibility and educate ourselves on the products we use, but we use thousands and thousands of products and none of us are experts on all of them. We rely on instructions and a certain amount of failsafe engineering.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Sorry to get heated, but even $1600 is a lot, to not give specs in writing.

As to the lead, if he wanted to reuse the warm post chill water to sanitize or whatever then it is an issue.

Long story short, I think Brewha needs to fully explain why they think it's user error, for no other reason than to help prevent this happening to another customer that will probably read this thread before buying their product.

 

[trimixdiver1]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

When bringing a product to market its the companies responsibility to ensure the customer has all the info to properly use their product. There a lot of morons out there and people who may not know as much as you do. So the shampoo thing is irrelevant to this type of product.

 

[JB_Brewing2]

I've found all the necessary specs and info on operation on the website to operate this equipment without any issues.

 

[jason1973]

Is there an inlet regulator on the cooling jacket? If that's the case it's almost certainly an issue with the equipment. It looks like a vacuum failure to me.

Even if there wasn't, having a jacketed vessel with no type of pressure regulation or relief valve is crappy design. If you're going to take that kind of chance on the design you should at least make the system have low enough restriction at the outlet that a little bit of gunk isn't going to block the outlet.

Also, i'd expect the outlet to still be blocked if that cause the failure. Is the outlet still blocked or significantly restricted?

been reading on this lately, the inlet regulator is a optional extra item.
depending on how this plays out the biac may be off my list of future equipment.
this making the zymatic look better as a clo9sed circuit system, i emailed picobrew you can go bigger batch if have a bigger keg, as long as grain bill max 9lb.

 

[JKoravos]

I've found all the necessary specs and info on operation on the website to operate this equipment without any issues.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that if you sell something designed to connect to a pressure source that is almost certainly over 30psig, and your product can only handle 15 psig or less, it's common sense to have a way to ensure the feed won't damage the product or hurt someone. That's product design 101.

 

[jeffreybandel]

Threads like this are the reason we have instructions on the back of shampoo bottles...

Hi Jimmy,

Have you seen the instructional video on the Brewha website? If so, what is your thought on Brewha not using one in the video?

 

[Owly055]

With an unrestricted outlet, and an inlet that is orificed properly, your water pressure should never be an issue. This failure was NOT as a result of water pressure...... The OP did NOT restrict the outlet. It was the result of vacuum. I've seen vacuum collapse barrels and tanks a number of times. This is an engineering / design flaw, and the company needs to make it right. In any case the damage to their reputation is already done.

They have an elegant if expensive all in one system with great potential. They need to seriously address this problem........ If they do not, then they deserve the consequences!! This is no trivial issue like the complaints about the BC barley crusher, but at least the manufacturer of the BC did open a dialog as well as providing unquestioning satisfaction to customers who were not satisifed.... I'm a satisfied customer of BC and have crushed grain for more than 60 brews with his product by the way.

If Brewha intends to stay in business, they would be foolish NOT to address this issue, and to make an appearance right here on Homebrewtalk.com and anywhere else where home brewing is discussed.


H.W.

 

[jason1973]

Are you drinking the chilling water?

based on everything i read and video's on there website, during mash the jacket is used to heat your sparge water, then later used as a cooling jacket.

 

[Gameface]

With an unrestricted outlet, and an inlet that is orificed properly, your water pressure should never be an issue. This failure was NOT as a result of water pressure...... The OP did NOT restrict the outlet. It was the result of vacuum. I've seen vacuum collapse barrels and tanks a number of times. This is an engineering / design flaw, and the company needs to make it right. In any case the damage to their reputation is already done.

They have an elegant if expensive all in one system with great potential. They need to seriously address this problem........ If they do not, then they deserve the consequences!! This is no trivial issue like the complaints about the BC barley crusher, but at least the manufacturer of the BC did open a dialog as well as providing unquestioning satisfaction to customers who were not satisifed.... I'm a satisfied customer of BC and have crushed grain for more than 60 brews with his product by the way.

If Brewha intends to stay in business, they would be foolish NOT to address this issue, and to make an appearance right here on Homebrewtalk.com and anywhere else where home brewing is discussed.


H.W.

Completely agree. I imagine they are in a tough market with a very limited base of potential customers. I can't imagine too many people buying their system without seeking out all the info they can find about it online. This will most likely be a place those potential customers land and if the story is that a guy bought their system and it failed on him right away when he was using it as per their instruction video and they told the guy to eat it, well, that sounds like a company that won't be in this market very long.

 

[JKoravos]

If the vessel in question was actually 5k, then I would feel the same way. The system costs around 5k, the tank is $1600... quite a difference. "Household water pressure" is not a standard in any part of the world that I am aware of, so its not really a valid argument to say that it can't handle it. Water pressure for me is near 80psi, and I can and have done damage with it. I do agree that some type of inlet regulator should be (have been) provided given the design limitations of the jacket.

I didn't say household water pressure was standard, not sure where you got that from my comment.

The important piece of information is that the household water pressure in any typically plumbed house in the US is going to be enough to overpressurize the Brewha's jacket.

 

[jason1973]

i just watched the video for biac small again, even tho he doesn't mention it, top port valve is open while he is cooling. did you have that valve open? if no you probably created a vacuum as thermal decreased in conical. technically would be your fault, but since it is not in any instructions or video's is really there fault.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oR6UrSNAkNU[/ame]

 

[limulus]

based on everything i read and video's on there website, during mash the jacket is used to heat your sparge water, then later used as a cooling jacket.

Hmm, I have a medium BIAC and I admit, I have not read every single line of info on the site and maybe that is one section I did not read. A lot of people will be running glycol solution (me included) so I can't see using the jacket to heat sparge water. I pre-heat my sparge water if I plan to sparge and keep it in my old cooler/mash tun. Then pump it into the mash.

i just watched the video for biac small again, even tho he doesn't mention it, top port valve is open while he is cooling. did you have that valve open? if no you probably created a vacuum as thermal decreased in conical. technically would be your fault, but since it is not in any instructions or video's is really there fault.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oR6UrSNAkNU

These come with two lids. One for the mash which has no ports and one for the fermentation which does have ports/valves. The latter would be the only one that would fit during the boil. The collapse of the inner shell to me looks like a vacuum formed.

 

[jason1973]

Hmm, I have a medium BIAC and I admit, I have not read every single line of info on the site and maybe that is one section I did not read. A lot of people will be running glycol solution (me included) so I can't see using the jacket to heat sparge water. I pre-heat my sparge water if I plan to sparge and keep it in my old cooler/mash tun. Then pump it into the mash.



These come with two lids. One for the mash which has no ports and one for the fermentation which does have ports/valves. The latter would be the only one that would fit during the boil. The collapse of the inner shell to me looks like a vacuum formed.

so durring cool did you have the valve open or closed?(never mind thaught you where OP)

 

[jeffreybandel]

Neither. I did not use the valve because I was warned that someone at some point started fermentation and left the valve closed resulting in obvious over pressurization during fermentation. I just used the fitting with a blow off tube for fermentation.

 

[jason1973]

Neither. I did not use the valve because I was warned that someone at some point started fermentation and left the valve closed resulting in obvious over pressurization during fermentation. I just used the fitting with a blow off tube for fermentation.

not during fermentation, when you where cooling wort how did you have lid set up?

 

[Owly055]

i just watched the video for biac small again, even tho he doesn't mention it, top port valve is open while he is cooling. did you have that valve open? if no you probably created a vacuum as thermal decreased in conical. technically would be your fault, but since it is not in any instructions or video's is really there fault.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oR6UrSNAkNU

If it is possible to NOT have the top port open and draw air to compensate for the vacuum, then there needs to be a relief valve to prevent a vacuum. Likewise if household water pressure can collapse the jacket, there should be a pop off.

I've built a number of very complex systems for agricultural use over the years, and one thing I've always done is imagine every way someone could screw up, and built safety and limit systems into the equipment to prevent those occurrences. If there is a way to destroy something, a hired man will find it!!

H.W.

 

[jeffreybandel]

One port with the C02 hookup was clamped shut. The other had a tri-clover cap resting on it so foreign debris would not fall in contaminating the beer.

 

[jason1973]

One port with the C02 hookup was clamped shut. The other had a tri-clover cap resting on it so foreign debris would not fall in contaminating the beer.

so vacuum it is, watch the video i posted and see what his looks like while he is cooling, he has a valve open clamped on the blow off port.

 

[limulus]

I hope the original poster can get something worked out with Brewha. The owner of the company has provided me the most reliable service I have ever received before and after the sale. I have not had a failure, but I have been extremely happy with the build quality of mine. I think he should use this a business learning experience and put some warnings on his site and with the unit. As I also said earlier in this thread, he could use this one as an R&D unit and use this as an example of what can happen when vacuum forms whether it be home brew equipment or pro equipment.

 

[Jimmy82]

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that if you sell something designed to connect to a pressure source that is almost certainly over 30psig, and your product can only handle 15 psig or less, it's common sense to have a way to ensure the feed won't damage the product or hurt someone. That's product design 101.

It's normal practice to leave that part up to the end user in the brewery..

Take this tank for example - it has a port on the top for a PRV (Note: PRV not included). It also states that the tank is pressure rated to 15psi..do you think that they are including a device to ensure that you don't exceed that pressure? No, they leave it up to you to configure it how you want it.

https://conical-fermenter.com/CF10B...Conical-Fermenter-with-Shadowless-Manway.html

 

[jeffreybandel]

so vacuum it is, watch the video i posted and see what his looks like while he is cooling, he has a valve open clamped on the blow off port.

Which is contrary to what they told me. They told me either my exit hose was kinked or the water pressure going in was too high.

 

[JKoravos]

It's normal practice to leave that part up to the end user in the brewery..



Take this tank for example - it has a port on the top for a PRV (Note: PRV not included). It also states that the tank is pressure rated to 15psi..do you think that they are including a device to ensure that you don't exceed that pressure? No, they leave it up to you to configure it how you want it.



https://conical-fermenter.com/CF10B...Conical-Fermenter-with-Shadowless-Manway.html

I can't follow the link, but that appears to be a 10 BBL commercial fermenter. Not something for home use.