Exploring "no chill" brewing

[Homercidal]

Well I might have my first No Chill failure on my hands. I've been experimenting with letting the wort cool down in the kettle to around 190 or so before transferring into the No Chill tank, in the hopes of getting better hoppy beers. On my last batch, (a Bo Pils) I got it down to 180F before transferring, BUT i was using a new digital thermometer that seems wonky and I suspect the wort was cooler than that.

When I went to pitch yeast, the tank didn't look all sucked in like it normally does. It didn't look bulged out or anything, but it definitely wasn't slightly collapsed like it normally is. The wort smells fairly sour too

I pitched and fermented as normal, and I'm cold crashing it now, but the samples I've tasted seemed very lactic-sharp, and had a Wit beer like phenolic aroma. Again, this was a Bohemian Pilsner, so while its way to early to tell, I am not too hopeful.

So let this be a warning at best, and a lesson at worst (if the beer is ruined). Its OK to let your wort cool to 200F or so before pouring in, but don't risk it getting much cooler.

How long after boiling did you wait before pitching the yeast? Overnight? 1 day?

I doubt there is any way that souring is going to happen in a few hours or even in a day or two. I think lactobaccilus is still going to be killed at above 140F. I'd have to check on that, but I think it's one of the bugs that is pasteurized.

 

[kzimmer0817]

Whew, I'm worn out. I noticed red marks on the fronts of my thighs this morning from the heat of my Dell Laptop computer. I read thru this entire thread yesterday - finishing just after midnight. Thank you, Dr_Deathweed, for starting this and for your excellent explanation at the outset.

I was getting sort of lost near the end as the thread branched out into several different, but related, rabbit trails. About 2/3 way thru, someone suggested condensing the thread into a Wiki, but I imagine that that takes a lot of time and energy. I think I have a pretty good idea how to do this.

As with many things, I agonize over some of the small details. I decided to start a new thread to help answer the question of which container to use for no-chill:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/no-chill-containers-345726/#post4305938

This present thread is loaded with valuable information, but it takes a few hours to find out about some of the specific container options.

If some of y'all don't mind, please go over to the new thread and post/show what container you use and, perhaps, say why you chose it over another.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[kzimmer0817]

For those of you who No Chill in a HDPE container and pitch yeast the next day: Since the plastic container sinks in during the cooling, I'm thinking that there's a vacuum in the container when you get ready to pitch. Upon opening the container, I would expect a decent influx of air - and stuff - into the container. Do you place a Starsan-soaked rag over the lid as you remove it?

Perhaps this is much ado about nothing, so I'm probably answering my own question. I guess you'd be likely to pick up more stuff from the surrounding air during transfer from the cube into the fermentation vessel (at least as much as when you're racking from kettle into FV after removal of your immersion chiller) than you would from a little gasp from the vacuum releasing.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[H-ost]

I just open mine very slowly and try not to let it gurgle to violently. Since you are only going to open it when you are ready to pitch, anything that makes it in there has some hungry yeast to beat out before they can infect your batch.

 

[ghpeel]

Yeah the chance of a bug getting in there during the release of the vacuum has got to be far less likely than chance you encounter when you are chilling your wort normally and it is open to exposed air for 20-30 minutes while doing so.

Once you've No Chilled for a while, it almost makes you nervous when you see guys who don't No Chill because they "don't want to get an infection" just walk away from a kettle full of raw wort at perfect bug temps while chilling for 20 minutes.

Also if you haven't heard it, 1-2 episodes back on Basic Brewing Radio they did a blind taste test with 2 different recipes having been done as Chilled and No Chilled versions. The panel was completely unable to tell a difference between the same recipe done as Chilled and No Chilled. Obviously us No Chillers knew this would be the case, but it was nice to see it get some more exposure.

 

[Bradinator]

Also if you haven't heard it, 1-2 episodes back on Basic Brewing Radio they did a blind taste test with 2 different recipes having been done as Chilled and No Chilled versions. The panel was completely unable to tell a difference between the same recipe done as Chilled and No Chilled. Obviously us No Chillers knew this would be the case, but it was nice to see it get some more exposure.

Not surprised at all, though I am also glad No Chill is getting some of the credit it deserves as being a viable technique in home brewing.

 

[crushingblackdoom]

Anyone here ever No-Chill in a corny, then push out the cold break via c02? I should really say Slo-Chill, as I'll be icebathing the corny & pitching soon after reaching temp. Usually 4-6 hrs.
What about, if you've already got the gas on to push out the cold break, wouldn't pouring the wort thru the tap w/ a higher than serving pressure create enough foam & oxygen in the fermenter to effectively aerate?
Just a couple of late night thoughts as I plan out my next brew day. Any ideas on this ? Much appreciated! BrewOn

 

[crushingblackdoom]

To avoid confusion, hopefully, I should say the corny is just to hold the wort while it cools. I'll be fermenting in a brew bucket, then racking to keg.

 

[onthekeg]

Anyone here ever No-Chill in a corny, then push out the cold break via c02? I should really say Slo-Chill, as I'll be icebathing the corny & pitching soon after reaching temp. Usually 4-6 hrs.
What about, if you've already got the gas on to push out the cold break, wouldn't pouring the wort thru the tap w/ a higher than serving pressure create enough foam & oxygen in the fermenter to effectively aerate?
Just a couple of late night thoughts as I plan out my next brew day. Any ideas on this ? Much appreciated! BrewOn

I do this all the time. I don't worry about the break that settles in the keg, I dump it all into the fermenter the next day.

 

[crushingblackdoom]

Cool! I'm guessing that getting rid of the cold-break might result in a clearer beer. So goes the mythology, anyway.

 

[onthekeg]

The cold break in the wort won't make any difference to the clarity of the final beer. That is dependent on other factors like
1. pH
2. Yeast in suspension
3. Water quality
4. Starch in suspension from incomplete conversion etc.

 

[crushingblackdoom]

Ahhh. Thanx dude. Any thoughts on aerating by pouring thru the tap?

 

[onthekeg]

I don't generally run it through the out post, I dump into my fermenter from the big opening in the corny when I go to fermentation. I don't think it will aerate too much that way, but go ahead and try. I would push it with filtered air though, rather than CO2.

 

[thughes]

For those of you who No Chill in a HDPE container and pitch yeast the next day: Since the plastic container sinks in during the cooling, I'm thinking that there's a vacuum in the container when you get ready to pitch. Upon opening the container, I would expect a decent influx of air - and stuff - into the container. Do you place a Starsan-soaked rag over the lid as you remove it?

Perhaps this is much ado about nothing, so I'm probably answering my own question. I guess you'd be likely to pick up more stuff from the surrounding air during transfer from the cube into the fermentation vessel (at least as much as when you're racking from kettle into FV after removal of your immersion chiller) than you would from a little gasp from the vacuum releasing.

Thanks,
Keith

If you break the vacuum and then pitch the yeast there will be no problems. If you break the vacuum and let the nasties in while you are drawing off some cooled wort to make a starter with the intent of pitching in a day or two when the starter gets going? Well....let's just say it's not a good idea, and leave it at that.

 

[dozer5454]

For people looking to find a no chill cube, I was in WinCo shopping with SWMBO, when I came across their water jugs and fill station. Sitting underneath the five gallon jugs was a perfect white 5 gallon cube with a rather tough screw top. Thinking there was no way I could be that lucky I strolled over and flipped it over to see what it was made of. Sure enough there was the HDPE markings. So I picked up two, figuring if I can't use it for no chill I can take it camping with the family for water. I fired up the keg with a little over 5 gallons of water, brought it to a boil, checked the temp 212 degrees, killed the fire and transferred the water into the container. Removing all the air took a bit of time, a few near burns and some swearing but I got almost all of it out. Low and behold a few days later the sides were caved in a slight bit but otherwise this thing was perfect. 212 degrees, which I thought would leave it in a gooey mess on my garage floor, was no problem. So if anyone is near a WinCo you should check them out. As they look really close to the WinPacks I don't thing stacking would be too tough either. And at just over $5 its not a bad price at all.

 

[H-ost]

I don't bother with getting most of the air out anymore, squeezing with your knees burns like hell on a hot cube. But I do have my software to account for filling the cubes with a little left over in-case I undershoot my target volumes.

My cubes just get filled to the brim.

 

[chrismcnally]

Got my 6 gallon containers in from US Plastics today.

I have a ton of #2 bungs and several blowoff setups for #2 so I drilled 5/8" holes in the center of the lids rather than buying 11.5 bungs.

Do you no chill in that container? what happens as the wort cools, do the sides cave in a bit? The containers pictured do not look very flexible for the vacuum created as the wort cools.

I like the looks of those and I only want to no chill in them, or maybe ferment. Do you transfer it to remove cold break or anything?

 

[jds]

Do you no chill in that container? what happens as the wort cools, do the sides cave in a bit? The containers pictured do not look very flexible for the vacuum crated as the wort cools.

I like the looks of those and I only want to no chill in them, or maybe ferment. Do you transfer it to remove cold break or anything?

I use these containers. Yes, the sides suck in as the wort cools. I cool overnight (mostly, sometimes longer), and then pour everything, break and all, into a 6.5 gal. carboy through a sanitized funnel.

My only complaints about the US Plastics containers are (1) they neck is too small to get a hand through, so you have to count on lots of soaking to get the interior clean, and (2) it's hard to get ALL the liquid out afterward. Otherwise, I'm happy using these containers for no-chill.

I've also used corny kegs, but I have to adjust my batch size down a bit and usually only clear 4-1/2 gallons or so after fermenting, cold-crashing, and fining.

 

[zyx345]

If I have all grain recipe that calls for a 60 minute and 20 minute hop addition. Based on The Pol's hop addition chart (page 17) would your total boil time be 40 minutes? My hop schedule would then be 40 minutes, then flame out correct?

 

[marcelo]

just do the 60min addition and the flame out. 60 to 90 min is almost no change in IBU.

 

[H-ost]

If I have all grain recipe that calls for a 60 minute and 20 minute hop addition. Based on The Pol's hop addition chart (page 17) would your total boil time be 40 minutes? My hop schedule would then be 40 minutes, then flame out correct?

You still do the full time for boil (at least I do) you just move the hop additions. The boil is still driving off DMS and reducing your volume.

 

[Jboggeye]

Hi all, what is the best way to cube hop?

Pellets or whole flower hops?

 

[eulipion2]

I usually just chuck in my pellet hops before draining my kettle, though I do end up with more trub in the fermenter and/or loss in the cube. I've considered trying whole hops in a hop bag, but I imagine that would absorb a bunch of wort and may be difficult to remove from the cube.

 

[cbehr]

I"m sorry...but what does FWH 30m IBU under flavoring hops mean? I've searched and can't find FWH?? Ferment with hops...add them 30 minutes after transfering wort?

 

[eulipion2]

I"m sorry...but what does FWH 30m IBU under flavoring hops mean? I've searched and can't find FWH?? Ferment with hops...add them 30 minutes after transfering wort?

FWH means First Wort Hops, meaning that you put your hops into the kettle then drain your mash onto them, or if you BIAB, take out your grain bag and add your hops while you squeeze. FWH-ing adds a smoother perceived bitterness, which is why a lot of people calculate them as a 30 or 20 minute addition. So...

FWH (First Wort Hop) 30 min (calculated as a 30 minute addition)

 

[cbehr]

So the normal version for example flavoring hops @ 15 mins but I want to add them @ 30 minutes instead? I'm sorry, first time I'm reading on this. I was just adding these flavoring hops @ flameout.

 

[eulipion2]

From waaaaaay back on page 47, one user's adjustments based on what works for him. They work for me as well, but some people say they have better luck hopping normally as they would with traditional chilling methods.

So this user recommends changing traditional 15 and 10 minute additions to FWH, calculating the IBUs as a 30 minute addition. I've read elsewhere that Gordon Strong calculates FWH as a 20 minute addition. For 5 minute and flame-out additions, he recommends dry-hopping. Try it out and see what works for you, but I've had pretty good luck with this chart.

 

[cbehr]

Do you have any suggested links on reading about FWH's? I'd like to read a little more about how this method!

 

[eulipion2]

So the FWH are added before the boil, but they're calculated as a 30-20 minute addition. So for a traditional hop addition:

60 min
15 min
0 min

would translate to no-chill (according to the chart)

FWH (calculated as 30 min, but added before the boil)
40 min
dry-hop.

The "FWH 30m IBU" just means that while the hops are added before the boil, you can expect the same perceived bitterness as a 30 min addition. Just did a quick search of HBT for "First Wort Hops" and discovered that BeerSmith's default calculation is BOIL TIME + 10%.

Again, the rules aren't set in stone, this is just what works for some people.

 

[cbehr]

I just found this link today while browsing around if anyone is interested on FWH's
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/11/19/first-wort-hops-fwh-in-beer-revisited/