Exploring "no chill" brewing

[The_Dog_42]

I thought about that, but the ice produced en-masse isn't nearly clean enough. Amid bacteria carrying dust, machine oils, dirt and other nasty grime, it makes me uneasy. Don't get me wrong, I've done it before after seeing it on Good Eats (wanted to see how well it worked and if it introduced baddies) but I don't recommend it. Beer stability and even the initial taste wasn't great.

The other issue with the ice is you don't know the water profile, so it may compete with our beer or add something...unpleasant to it like chloramines.

 

[dantheman13]

It might be worth noting this recent article by Chris Colby, who I believe has a PhD in Biology and was peer reviewed by Chris White from White Labs as well as a food scientist, says that aging no chilled wort longer than 3-4 days runs a very low risk of botulism poisoning.

 

[geoffey]

It might be worth noting this recent article by Chris Colby, who I believe has a PhD in Biology and was peer reviewed by Chris White from White Labs as well as a food scientist, says that aging no chilled wort longer than 3-4 days runs a very low risk of botulism poisoning.

That's a very interesting read. Thanks for the link!


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[zman]

I am doing a no chill tripel today and want to know when people add their candi sugar?

 

[eulipion2]

I am doing a no chill tripel today and want to know when people add their candi sugar?

I did a quad yesterday, and put the syrup into the cube, then racked the wort on top of it. I've done that with other syrups/sugars and they've always turned out great.

 

[zman]

I did a quad yesterday, and put the syrup into the cube, then racked the wort on top of it. I've done that with other syrups/sugars and they've always turned out great.

That is what I was thinking. I use a corny as my "cube" but the concept is the same. Thanks for the quick response!!

 

[stamandster]

It might be worth noting this recent article by Chris Colby, who I believe has a PhD in Biology and was peer reviewed by Chris White from White Labs as well as a food scientist, says that aging no chilled wort longer than 3-4 days runs a very low risk of botulism poisoning.

What this basically means is that ANY liquid OR food product is susceptible to botulism. ANY. period. My point is chilling quickly or not will not reduce the amount of botulism that you might have "inoculated" your containers with. Good article none-the-less.

 

[dantheman13]

What this basically means is that ANY liquid OR food product is susceptible to botulism. ANY. period. My point is chilling quickly or not will not reduce the amount of botulism that you might have "inoculated" your containers with. Good article none-the-less.

That's why most other liquids or food stores that are produced are pasteurized for botulism. There are companies that produce stored wort who pasteurize for botulism, for example.

However, beer is a little bit different than "every other food product". In order to get botulism in beer that begins fermentation within 3-4 days, you need to have botulism poison (spores and bacteria will not survive the pH swing once fermentation begins, so if they are in there you are still not going to get botulism poisoning in this case) in the fermenter when you rack your beer in, which means you need a rather disgusting fermenter. With decent cleaning and sanitizing there is as close to a 0% chance as you can get of botulism poisoning if you pitch your yeast within 3-4 days. Since spores survive boiling temperatures (but not low pH), the chance is considerably higher (although still lower than the chances of getting it from an irresponsible sushi restaurant).

I would suggest to go ahead and age wort if that is what you want to do. Just drink it before giving it to someone else. Selling unpasteurized aged wort or giving beer to friends that was fermented with unpasteurized aged wort without tasting first yourself is irresponsible considering the knowledge we have on the subject.

 

[roastquake]

Does anybody know the best time to add Irish Moss to a no-chill brew? Up to this point I've never used it in my no-chill method, and I'm not sure if it needs to be boiled or if so, for how long. Or, if it should just go into the cube while the wort is still at boiling temperature.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Does anybody know the best time to add Irish Moss to a no-chill brew?

I would add the Irish Moss, or whirlflock as you normally would, with about ten minutes left in the boil.

 

[Reggie22]

If a guy wanted to use a bucket for no chill, or slow chill rather, could he rack into the bucket and then put the aeration hose through the grommet in the lid, attach the diffusion stone, put the lid on and use that for the suck back as the wort cools? HEPA filter attached and high heat hose of course. This way once the wort is cooled you can aerate, pitch and be done.


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[pricelessbrewing]

I'm sure that'll work. Only concern would be your method of racking. Autosiphons are not intended for use with boiling wort.

 

[Reggie22]

I can see that as being a concern too so maybe racking wasn't the proper term. I transfer using the ball valve on my kettle with proper type and length of hose to prevent aeration of wort before cooling.


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[Brewsday]

That's a great idea but my concern would be "marinating" the diffusion stone and hose that long. When I aerate with my O2 kit, I am always worried about the stone sanitation (so I boil it every time). When I was doing no-chill, I used the "1-piece, S-shaped Bubblers" filled with good starsan. Seemed to work great. That said I still wouldn't insert the airlock bubbler until the bucket was in its "permanent" resting spot....hot buckets do a lot of "oil-canning" when you move them. I would cover the grommet hole with starsan soaked paper towel but it often got blown off...
I also ended up drilling all my bucket lids to accept silicon stoppers so I could aerate and pitch through a bigger hole and not have to remove the lid. I can also stuff a drop hop bag through that hole when I need to.
Here's another idea...one time I put whole hops in the bucket before the hot wort. Some have compared this to whirlpool hops additions. Then a couple days later racked to a new bucket, aerated and pitched. That batch had an amazingly smooth hop flavor that I have been unable to reproduce with "flame-out/whirlpool" additions. I've even tried chilling to 185*, hopping for 10 minutes, then chilling the rest of the way, Might have been a fluke but if I were still no-chilling I would experiment more with this for an IPA or APA. (just a couple tips..fwiw)

Despite all that, I never had an infection. But in the end I went back to immersion chiller because I didn't like having to go through yet another "session" of brewing work on a different day. No-chill is great to shorten the brew day but that time doesn't really go away. I noticed no difference in beer flavor from using no chill.

As I get older I can foresee shedding gear and brewing less...I will sell the chiller and go back to no-chill.

 

[Reggie22]

As far as "marinating" I thought about that too. I would just have to make sure it is boiled and cleaned very well each use.

I like the idea of the silicone stopper in the lid too. Would be pretty handy for many reasons. Pitching, sampling, etc.

I brew after my kids go to bed, usually on weekends, so shortening the brew day is the reason for the no chill. I don't mind the next day "session."


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[Tegra]

Sorry I am getting into this a bit late, but would appreciate any input on my plan to simplify my system.

I am planing a 12 gallon batch.

1. In the kettle I would only boil 10 gallons. After boil has finished I would remove the hops and then add 2 gallons of cold water. This should drop the temperature to about 185.

2. Open the kettle tap and drain the full 12 gallons into a 15 gallon Sanke keg (sitting in the fermentation chamber), complete with spunding valve.

3. Pressurize the hot keg until the spunding valve releases at about 20 psi. (So that the keg does not develop a vacuum as it cools)

4. Leave lid open on the fermentation chamber until temperature has dropped significantly and then start the "black box" temperature control to slowly ramp to pitching temperature. Pressure will drop to about 15 psi.

5. The next day connect a pump to recirculate, drawing from the liquid port and spraying into the gas port, still under 15 psi. This will help the cool wort absorb oxygen from the pressurized air.

6. Release the pressure to add the Yeast and Fermcap and then repressurize to 5 psi for fermentation.

7. Raise pressure and temperature as fermentation continues according to profile in the "black box".


This would remove the immersion cooler step and allow a larger batch. It would move the aeration step into the next day and keep it internal.

Has anyone done something similar and have any suggestions?


Tom

 

[wyzazz]

3. Pressurize the hot keg until the spunding valve releases at about 20 psi. (So that the keg does not develop a vacuum as it cools)

4. Leave lid open on the fermentation chamber until temperature has dropped significantly and then start the "black box" temperature control to slowly ramp to pitching temperature. Pressure will drop to about 15 psi.

5. The next day connect a pump to recirculate, drawing from the liquid port and spraying into the gas port, still under 15 psi. This will help the cool wort absorb oxygen from the pressurized air.

If you are pressurizing with CO2 (I would imagine you are) then you can't really recirculate to aerate, aerating with CO2 doesn't do anything for the yeast. If you are pressurizing with O2 or air from a compressor, I think you are probably asking for an infection.

I'd also be slightly concerned that you are cooling the wort down to 185 by adding room temp/cold water. Part of the reason that No Chill works is because of the almost boiling temps that wort is put in to the fermenters at. It sanitizes/pasteurizes with heat, kind of like water bath canning. Maybe boil those 2 gallons of water (compensating for evaporation) and drop them in to the fermenter hot?

 

[Tegra]

Thanks for the reply. Please correct me if I get the science wrong but I believe the two concerns are taken care of.

I will pressurize with air. I would think that my previous method of bubbling air for 30 minutes would have more "nasties" then a single shot to pressurize? If we think worst case and consider that the air may be horribly contaminated it will be subjected to the steaming wort at about 185 degrees. I understand that pasteurizing takes place at 161 degrees for 15 seconds. Do you think there could still be something living at 185 degrees?

The same situation with the added water, it has been chlorinated and filtered but will also be posterized upon introduction to the wort. The purpose of this addition is to allow more room in the kettle for BIAB a and boiling. I am also not comfortable moving boiling liquid around and the 185, although still scaling is somehow more comforting to me.

I still have small concerns with the circulating pump but if I do a thorough clean and sanitize I think I will be ok. (Alternatively I could just rock the keg to get the oxygen dissolved, either by hand, a shaking machine or some kind of giant stir plate.)

My objective is to remove any siphoning or open containers and make the process cleaner.

Tom

 

[wyzazz]

Thanks for the reply. Please correct me if I get the science wrong but I believe the two concerns are taken care of.

I will pressurize with air. I would think that my previous method of bubbling air for 30 minutes would have more "nasties" then a single shot to pressurize? If we think worst case and consider that the air may be horribly contaminated it will be subjected to the steaming wort at about 185 degrees. I understand that pasteurizing takes place at 161 degrees for 15 seconds. Do you think there could still be something living at 185 degrees?

The same situation with the added water, it has been chlorinated and filtered but will also be posterized upon introduction to the wort. The purpose of this addition is to allow more room in the kettle for BIAB a and boiling. I am also not comfortable moving boiling liquid around and the 185, although still scaling is somehow more comforting to me.

I still have small concerns with the circulating pump but if I do a thorough clean and sanitize I think I will be ok. (Alternatively I could just rock the keg to get the oxygen dissolved, either by hand, a shaking machine or some kind of giant stir plate.)

My objective is to remove any siphoning or open containers and make the process cleaner.

Tom

The only thing you can do is try it out and see if it works. Just me, but I wouldn't use air without a "sanitary filter". Maybe you're already using one? I'm not sure if they are rated for pressure, but some folks use them on O2 systems I believe so that should be OK.

I like to be sanitary if possible, but if pasteurization works for you then so be it. Again, give it a shot and let us all know how it works out.

Cheers!

 

[wilserbrewer]

Tom,
I feel what your proposing is fine, even if you may be overthinking it a bit . IMO only of course.

Infecting wort at 185 degrees should not be a great worry, nor the small amount of air for aeration prior to pitching the yeast.

Traditional no chill goes to greater lengths to insure sanitary conditions as some of these people pitch yeast weeks or even months later. IMO worrying about the few pints of air / contamination that may happen while the cooling wort shrinks in volume is not a concern if your intention is to pitch yeast as soon as you reach temps.

I simply no chill in my kettle with the lid on and have never had an issue, I do always pitch yeast ASAP within say 12 - 24 hours.

Of course in theory a few bugs may find their way in, but not near enough compete with a billion healthy yeast cells?

IME the process can be relaxed a little IF you intend to pitch right away rather than storing the wort long term.

Fwiw all my beers are kegged and stored cold within say 2 weeks of brewing, perhaps if I were bottling and aging for extended periods my casual approach could show flaws. IDK and will likely never find out.

Cheers!
Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[Tegra]

Wilserbrewer:

I am all about overthinking to make it simpler!

Pulling the hops and cooling in the kettle may be the way to go for me. If I strip off the insulation off the keggle, how soon will it drop to room temperature?

Tom

 

[wilserbrewer]

How cold is the room? How big is the batch?

Just guessing here but my 8 gallon batches are around 90 degrees after 10 - 12 hours, at this point I either load in the ferm chamber fridge to chill mid sixties, place in a swamp chiller with some ice, or lately I have been putting 2 - 3 frozen 2 liter soda bottles in the wort to finish the chill, sanitized prior to adding to the kettle.

I know it's a little rough and goes against conventional practice, but it's easy and seems to work for me.

My brew session pretty much ends at flame out, then I leave the kettle uncovered for an hour or so and usually add some hops at 160 -170, then cover and ignore kettle till the following morning or evening...usually around 12 hours.

Many many years ago when I started brewing I felt that it was crucial to pitch yeast ASAP, and was even pitching warm in haste, fast forward and now I feel the opposite, that it is much better to patiently wait till you are at the lower end of the temp range for the given yeast.

I don't really fear infection perhaps as much as I should...but just my opinion the post boil kettle is pretty sanitary and not really in grave danger right away.

Beers may initially have a bit more protein haze with this approach, but after a week or two in the cold keg the beer clears out nicely.

Have fun !



Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[wilserbrewer]

Sorry double post

 

[pricelessbrewing]

So just to clarify, you keep the cooling wort in the boil kettle till 80-90~ instead of transferring to a cube/bucket/airtight container? That sounds wonderful to me, as it'll stop me from having to lift boiling wort and pouring which is both difficult, and potentially dangerous.

 

[Tegra]

I like that concept!

I have a Refectix wrap on my kettle that I can easily strip off (actually I should every time to clean, but have skipped this and had to deal with the slime later) and a large fan that I can set to low to speed the cooling as I would like to pitch early next day. (Not out of fear of infection but because I don't want to wait any longer than necessary to drink the beer)

Tom

 

[jtratcliff]

Like Wilserbrewer, I too "overnight chill" in the kettle...

I do stovetop BIAB... 6.5 gallon batches in a 10 gallon kettle.

After flameout and any flameout additions, I'll put the kettle in my sink for a water bath. I'll change out the water a couple of times just to get it cool enough that I can carry it outside without scalding myself in case of a mishap. I use little office binder clips to keep any critters from knocking the lid off overnight. I've done the no-chill hops adjustments, but lately I just use a hops bag (made by wilserbrewer, I might add) and pull the bag after a little while in the water bath.

I'm usually in the upper 70's or low 80's 12-18 hours later depending on overnight temps. Works better in Winter, obviously

I transfer to a sanitized fermenter and use a swamp cooler with ice bottles to get the rest of the way down to pitching temps.

It's been working out well for me for quite a while.... Not to say I wouldn't use a chiller if I had one to get to temps faster, but since no-chill works so well, I'm taking my time collecting the pieces to build a CFC.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Exactly, lately I have been enjoying brewing with what I would like to call, "passive chilling", I know it goes against the common repertoire, but it works so long as you keep a eye on sanitation.

Rather than obsess and monkey around with a chiller, and I do own one...
I have found it easier to let the wort passively chill and deal with it on my schedule, within 12-15 hours.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[jahdub]

Gonna try no-chill in the kettle with my next IPA. It will have 6oz of hops at flame out. Should be fun.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Gonna try no-chill in the kettle with my next IPA. It will have 6oz of hops at flame out. Should be fun.

I suggest staggering late
hops between flame out and around 160 degrees.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[jtratcliff]

yeah, keep in mind that those flameout hops are going to be sitting in hotter wort for a longer time when you no-chill than if you were rapidly reducing temps with a chiller.

You'll get more bitterness and less flavor/aroma than you might be expecting... If you poke around the no-chill threads you can find a chart made by "The Pol", I think, that shows one method of adjusting your hop additions to account for the longer time at higher temps.

Most bittering additions are shortened by 20 minutes, some flavor/aroma addtions are moved to flameout, and some flameout additions are moved to dry hop.

Just google for "no-chill hops adjustment" or "no-chill hops schedule" and look for the chart.