Spooky season Friday - ahhhghhh! Botulism !

[zosimus]

Likely would be diagnosed OCD if I went to a psychologist, but I have been going down the rabbit hole of Botulism and risks in homebrew (beer, wine and mead). Basic consensus in the homebrew community from my telling is it's very unlikely using traditional homebrew methods. In fact, in my research the only recorded cases of Botulism with 'homebrewing' was from a few outbreaks in prisons caused by the making of pruno. Many red flags in the brewing process there and was most likely caused by addition of the potato.

But reading the nitty gritty science, the bacteria that creates the toxin that causes botulism, has very specific conditions it likes to live under. 1 is it likes to grow in low oxygen environments.
2. It has to have ingredients like low sugar, low salt, and most importantly to brewing, high PH level and proteins to make it a healthy environment for growth. It also doesn't grow fast, so typically in the best of conditions, it needs at least 3 days of sitting to potentially produce the bad toxins that do the scary stuff to humans.
Of course given these factors, this does not completely eliminate the potential, first for the bacteria to exist in your must or wort, but second for it to potentially grow despite some things preventing it from growing. I did read somewhere that low pH does prohibit any growth, but there also seems to be contradicting studies on exactly what pH level that is (4.6 is most common).

That being said, the vast majority of cases of Botulism are due to canned goods with high pH levels, ie meats and vegetables. I decided to give it a global look and the US is doing pretty well in terms of avoiding it, Italy doing not so great, but no where did I find a case of homebrew botulism (besides the prison cases of pruno). Basically the bacteria likes growing with canned meats and vegetables because of the high pH, low oxygen environments and proteins that are provided by the food. That being said, if the can or jar is properly sealed with really high temps (at least 240 fahrenheit), this will destroy the spores/kill the bacteria inside of the can so most cases are caused by improper storage, temperature storing, etc.
https://acmsf.food.gov.uk/Epidemiology

From an article I read though, chances do increase with certain types of fermentation. The most at-risk brew is beer because beer has lots of protein and remains at a higher pH level post boil and pre-pitching the yeast.
The main homebrew method that is risky is no-chill brewing due to the fact that the wort is allowed to sit potentially for a few days at a high pH level and high protein. The only thing that would prevent the toxin would be oxygen which theoretically should also reduce risk of growth.

Once active yeast is pitched, it begins to take up the fermentation, and pH drops rapidly within 24 hours, and thus your risk is pretty much mitigated. Additionally the yeast does not like sharing and typically fights wins the battle against the bad bacteria, essentially making it hard for anything else to grow.
Once the beer reaches above 6%, the bacteria is again, inhibited to grow. So basically if you pitch yeast in your wort pretty quickly and note that the fermentation has started within 3 days, you're probably fine.

Now for more questions on my part. Do most beers end fermentation at a low pH ? 4.6 or below? Also what if your beer is low alcohol (less than 6%)?
The reason I ask is technically if you're bottling, what is preventing any residual spores from growing in that environment? At that point the yeast has done its job (does it move out) and the pH has probably stabilized somewhere. Once you cap the beer, therefore lowering oxygen exposure, don't you run the risk of allowing spores to be grown? I suppose if you bottle carbonate you are still letting the yeast work on it so that might kick the bad stuff out.

Secondly, I read the prison people had put everything in a ziplock bag..idk if they had an airlock on that thing, but I wonder how that was low-oxygen enough to let spores grow. Obviously it did and nothing was sanitized and they used wild yeast to ferment.

Also interestingly, I read that you can actually kill the *toxin* that is deadly by boiling something for an amount of time (15+ minutes). That *will not* kill the spores, but it will kill the toxin produced by the spores. And it is known that people typically can come in contact with and consume the spores and be fine, it is the toxin produced by the growth and reproduction of the spores that kills.

What's the viability of pasteurizing your beer before drinking...? Im assuming that affects taste.

 

[kevin58]

Questions about botulism abound on this forum. You can do a search and see what has been posted in the past but in short.... your are boiling the wort... then the yeast consume oxygen and produce alcohol. All things that kill or inhibit botulism from forming toxins. Put this one aside and rest easy that your beer is safe to drink.

 

[Broken Crow]

Likely would be diagnosed OCD if I went to a psychologist,

So would a lot us on here, but we prefer the term; "Detail-Oriented".
I suggest simply refraining from brewing in the event of incarceration and in the meantime; a form of active cognitive therapy:
Here's a pic of botulism that you can base a halloween costume on...focus on the fun in translating the image into a human-wearable outfit:

 

[zosimus]

Likely would be diagnosed OCD if I went to a psychologist, but I have been going down the rabbit hole of Botulism and risks in homebrew (beer, wine and mead). Basic consensus in the homebrew community from my telling is it's very unlikely using traditional homebrew methods. In fact, in my research the only recorded cases of Botulism with 'homebrewing' was from a few outbreaks in prisons caused by the making of pruno. Many red flags in the brewing process there and was most likely caused by addition of the potato.

But reading the nitty gritty science, the bacteria that creates the toxin that causes botulism, has very specific conditions it likes to live under. 1 is it likes to grow in low oxygen environments.
2. It has to have ingredients like low sugar, low salt, and most importantly to brewing, high PH level and proteins to make it a healthy environment for growth. It also doesn't grow fast, so typically in the best of conditions, it needs at least 3 days of sitting to potentially produce the bad toxins that do the scary stuff to humans.
Of course given these factors, this does not completely eliminate the potential, first for the bacteria to exist in your must or wort, but second for it to potentially grow despite some things preventing it from growing. I did read somewhere that low pH does prohibit any growth, but there also seems to be contradicting studies on exactly what pH level that is (4.6 is most common).

That being said, the vast majority of cases of Botulism are due to canned goods with high pH levels, ie meats and vegetables. I decided to give it a global look and the US is doing pretty well in terms of avoiding it, Italy doing not so great, but no where did I find a case of homebrew botulism (besides the prison cases of pruno). Basically the bacteria likes growing with canned meats and vegetables because of the high pH, low oxygen environments and proteins that are provided by the food. That being said, if the can or jar is properly sealed with really high temps (at least 240 fahrenheit), this will destroy the spores/kill the bacteria inside of the can so most cases are caused by improper storage, temperature storing, etc.
https://acmsf.food.gov.uk/Epidemiology

From an article I read though, chances do increase with certain types of fermentation. The most at-risk brew is beer because beer has lots of protein and remains at a higher pH level post boil and pre-pitching the yeast.
The main homebrew method that is risky is no-chill brewing due to the fact that the wort is allowed to sit potentially for a few days at a high pH level and high protein. The only thing that would prevent the toxin would be oxygen which theoretically should also reduce risk of growth.

Once active yeast is pitched, it begins to take up the fermentation, and pH drops rapidly within 24 hours, and thus your risk is pretty much mitigated. Additionally the yeast does not like sharing and typically fights wins the battle against the bad bacteria, essentially making it hard for anything else to grow.
Once the beer reaches above 6%, the bacteria is again, inhibited to grow. So basically if you pitch yeast in your wort pretty quickly and note that the fermentation has started within 3 days, you're probably fine.

Now for more questions on my part. Do most beers end fermentation at a low pH ? 4.6 or below? Also what if your beer is low alcohol (less than 6%)?
The reason I ask is technically if you're bottling, what is preventing any residual spores from growing in that environment? At that point the yeast has done its job (does it move out) and the pH has probably stabilized somewhere. Once you cap the beer, therefore lowering oxygen exposure, don't you run the risk of allowing spores to be grown? I suppose if you bottle carbonate you are still letting the yeast work on it so that might kick the bad stuff out.

Secondly, I read the prison people had put everything in a ziplock bag..idk if they had an airlock on that thing, but I wonder how that was low-oxygen enough to let spores grow. Obviously it did and nothing was sanitized and they used wild yeast to ferment.

Also interestingly, I read that you can actually kill the *toxin* that is deadly by boiling something for an amount of time (15+ minutes). That *will not* kill the spores, but it will kill the toxin produced by the spores. And it is known that people typically can come in contact with and consume the spores and be fine, it is the toxin produced by the growth and reproduction of the spores that kills.

What's the viability of pasteurizing your beer before drinking...? Im assuming that affects taste.

Also found this article. Although it's not confirmed to have been from homebrew, this survivor did get botulism after drinking homebrew and eating some foods. It is not confirmed where the botulism came from though.

https://www.jpeocbrnd.osd.mil/Media...he-real-world-importance-of-medical-counterm/

 

[Agent]

As a prolific home canner in the modern era, I've done a bit of reading on botulism over the years.

So to help assuage your fears, using a lab-grade pH meter, I've found beers as low as 1.3% ABV to drop the pH to around 4.3 - 4.4. Most beers finish under pH 4.

As you said, the botulism spores are slow to grow. Given optimal conditions they have that 3 day growth delay. Between pH that is borderline (most unfermented wort is around pH 5) and lower temperatures (I want to say it prefers temperatures in the 100F range) the lag time is extended further. Hence, why it's all but unheard of in anything resembling normal brewing.

 

[zosimus]

As a prolific home canner in the modern era, I've done a bit of reading on botulism over the years.

So to help assuage your fears, using a lab-grade pH meter, I've found beers as low as 1.3% ABV to drop the pH to around 4.3 - 4.4. Most beers finish under pH 4.

As you said, the botulism spores are slow to grow. Given optimal conditions they have that 3 day growth delay. Between pH that is borderline (most unfermented wort is around pH 5) and lower temperatures (I want to say it prefers temperatures in the 100F range) the lag time is extended further. Hence, why it's all but unheard of in anything resembling normal brewing.

Curious about finished beer bottles and stored at room temp... If it happens to finish at a higher pH (above 4.6) and low alcohol (less than 6%), isn't this a good environment for it to grow? Or is the yeast still the dominate culture and thus it mostly pushed out all the spores? I'm just wondering if yeast presence destroys the spores or if there's a chance they can grow because I have bought beer before that was not stored in fridge and have kept my homebrew at room temp for awhile before refrigerating it.

Or maybe it is virtually unheard of for beer to finish more than 4.6 pH

 

[Agent]

The big thing is the pH. I'd guesstimate that any beer fermented to greater that 2-2.5% ABV will have had its pH drop well below the 4.6 threshold by the yeast action. So unless you add a bit of caustic to neutralize the acidity at bottling, you'll be plenty safe.

 

[Broothru]

I had backed away from attempting to brew low alcohol/no alcohol beers over fears of infections which might cause health issues when consumed. Subsequently I came across a BeerSmith blog about brewing them, and sent an email to Brad about my concern;

Subject: Low alcohol brewing discussion on last blog posting

Message Body:
I'm reluctant to enter any low alcohol beers in competitions or even serve them to friends due to the lack of antibacterial protections from the lack of ethanol. Doesn't food safety become a problem with the uncertainties of post-packaging handling of low alcohol beers (0.0% ~ 3.0%) with pH values higher than pH 4.0? The last thing I want to do is poison a BJCP judge or sicken my guests.

Here's his reply:

"Well the good news is that you can't really poison them as no know pathogens live in beer. Worst case
it would make the beer taste quite bad.

However your concern is valid - many low alcohol beers don't have enough alcohol or hops to act
as a good preservative. Some options to help include adding sulfites (like you do with wine) or filtering
or pasteurizing the beer to reduce the risk of infection."

Cheers!

Brad Smith

While it doesn't fully address the issue of botulism (212F/100C boiling will not destroy the spores; that requires >240F), quickly reducing post-boil temperatures and beginning fermentation will mitigate the toxins being produced. Once alcohol is present, the environment for any spores to create toxins is also hostile, as will pH < ~4.6. Post fermentation, crashing, packaging and storage at temperatures maintained in a constant cold chain of upper 30s/low 40s F until consumption will also help to minimize risk.

Pasteurization and sterile filtering are pretty much out of the reach of homebrewers in a non-laboratory setting, so sulfites (maybe sorbates?) are about the only tools in our tool box. So either drink fast or roll the dice. Drinking beer ain't for wussies.

 

[mac_1103]

this survivor did get botulism after drinking homebrew and eating some foods. It is not confirmed where the botulism came from though.

"Maj. Shay Hartvickson, now a 35-year-old medical doctor and Soldier, was a young and healthy 30-year-old husband and father on leave for a friend’s wedding in Ohio. A groomsman in the wedding, Hartvickson enjoyed a weekend of fun and tradition with friends the weekend of September 22, 2018, enjoying a variety of delicious catered food, drink, and, admittedly, a fair amount of homebrewed beer and wine."

Did anybody else at the wedding enjoy the homebrewed beer and wine? Did any of them get sick? I'm guessing yes and no.

Look, nobody here can tell you that homebrew is absolutely positively 100% safe, even though we have collectively brewed, consumed and shared a few million metric sh!t tons of the stuff. If you're this worried, maybe you just shouldn't brew. Or get yourself an autoclave and heat your wort to 240F for 30 minutes. But you'll still have to worry about whether some spores get in when you pitch your yeast.

 

[zosimus]

I had backed away from attempting to brew low alcohol/no alcohol beers over fears of infections which might cause health issues when consumed. Subsequently I came across a BeerSmith blog about brewing them, and sent an email to Brad about my concern;


Here's his reply:

"Well the good news is that you can't really poison them as no know pathogens live in beer. Worst case
it would make the beer taste quite bad.

However your concern is valid - many low alcohol beers don't have enough alcohol or hops to act
as a good preservative. Some options to help include adding sulfites (like you do with wine) or filtering
or pasteurizing the beer to reduce the risk of infection."

Cheers!

Brad Smith

While it doesn't fully address the issue of botulism (212F/100C boiling will not destroy the spores; that requires >240F), quickly reducing post-boil temperatures and beginning fermentation will mitigate the toxins being produced. Once alcohol is present, the environment for any spores to create toxins is also hostile, as will pH < ~4.6. Post fermentation, crashing, packaging and storage at temperatures maintained in a constant cold chain of upper 30s/low 40s F until consumption will also help to minimize risk.

Pasteurization and sterile filtering are pretty much out of the reach of homebrewers in a non-laboratory setting, so sulfites (maybe sorbates?) are about the only tools in our tool box. So either drink fast or roll the dice. Drinking beer ain't for wussies.

Well you store the beer typically for 2 weeks at least for bottle carbonation and then close to 6 weeks in fridge for lagering.

Plus I don't think breweries typically heat beer to 240 fahrenheit after canning even when pasteurizing so I am sure that there would have been a case of Botulism or two at least once considering the amount of beer is consumed by the wider population.

 

[Broothru]

Well you store the beer typically for 2 weeks at least for bottle carbonation and then close to 6 weeks in fridge for lagering.

Plus I don't think breweries typically heat beer to 240 fahrenheit after canning even when pasteurizing so I am sure that there would have been a case of Botulism or two at least once considering the amount of beer is consumed by the wider population.

Actually, "tunnel Pastuerization" (flash Pasteurization) is a thing, as is post-packaging of commercial beverages. Just saw that a few weeks ago at a small production cidery in Manitoba.

Also, the "cold chain" of beverage handling is continuous after packaging up to the point of consumption.

 

[Skeeter686]

Although I'm finding some inconsistent results, I'm generally seeing that beer typically has pH of less than 4.6. I expect the outliers are unusual / atypical beer styles.

Linked to from the USDA site is the University of Georgia NATIONAL CENTER FOR HOME FOOD PRESERVATION, which states that botulism requires a low-acid environment and that:
"Low-acid foods have pH values higher than 4.6."

For untested canning recipes, I always adhered to the 4.6 "rule" for boiling water bath. If it were higher than that, I'd pressure can (i.e., higher temperature to kill botulism). I used a pH meter, and you could do the same for beer if you're concerned.

 

[mac_1103]

Haven't heard much from the no-chill brewing crowd lately. Hope all of our Australian friends are still with us.

 

[Broothru]

Although I'm finding some inconsistent results, I'm generally seeing that beer typically has pH of less than 4.6. I expect the outliers are unusual / atypical beer styles.

Linked to from the USDA site is the University of Georgia NATIONAL CENTER FOR HOME FOOD PRESERVATION, which states that botulism requires a low-acid environment and that:
"Low-acid foods have pH values higher than 4.6."

For untested canning recipes, I always adhered to the 4.6 "rule" for boiling water bath. If it were higher than that, I'd pressure can (i.e., higher temperature to kill botulism). I used a pH meter, and you could do the same for beer if you're concerned.

Oh, I do check pH, at least three times brewing a batch of beer. Once +10 minutes into mash, once pre-boil, once post boil. I frequently add acidulated malt and plan for a mash pH 5.0~5.4. I don't usually test for pH in finished beer unless I know it will not be refrigerated after it is bottled for a competition. When I do, it ends up being < pH 4.6~4.8 almost always, though usually not below pH 4.6. I almost always keg my beer, and it gets stored in either the kegerator for serving or dedicated beer fridge which holds 5 kegs. If I have more than 7 kegs worth of beer, I also have two sixtel-sized kegmenters that I can hook up to a glycol chiller to maintain 38F, or keep it unkegged (but under pressure) in a Unitank hooked up to glycol.

 

[zosimus]

Actually, "tunnel Pastuerization" (flash Pasteurization) is a thing, as is post-packaging of commercial beverages. Just saw that a few weeks ago at a small production cidery in Manitoba.

Also, the "cold chain" of beverage handling is continuous after packaging up to the point of consumption.

I do know of cold chain, although that is not always used or required by the brewery. I have a store that does imports of beer and they store a fair amount of beer at room temperature to sell. I believe they refrigerate only the IPAs due to hops.

Also Costco sells beer unrefrigerated (in bottles and cans).

 

[zosimus]

Haven't heard much from the no-chill brewing crowd lately. Hope all of our Australian friends are still with us.

I did read on Botulism cases in Australia. None from homebrewing and typically only 1 case per year

 

[zosimus]

Also what pH meter do people use?. I've heard sometimes pH meters can be inaccurate

 

[zosimus]

The big thing is the pH. I'd guesstimate that any beer fermented to greater that 2-2.5% ABV will have had its pH drop well below the 4.6 threshold by the yeast action. So unless you add a bit of caustic to neutralize the acidity at bottling, you'll be plenty safe.

Interesting, I've heard from some that pH regularly end above 4.6. I don't know if that's due to beer type or maybe it's due to inaccuracies in pH meter. But from what I've read, beers finish from 4.0-4.6 typically which is in the range. Wondering what contributes to a higher pH beer

 

[Broothru]

Also Costco sells beer unrefrigerated (in bottles and cans).

..which were most likely tunnel pasteurized or 'bath' pasteurized in lieu of cold chain handling.

 

[zosimus]

..which were most likely tunnel pasteurized or 'bath' pasteurized in lieu of cold chain handling.

Right, I have done a little research on those forms of pasteurization and even the industrial versions used by breweries only heats up to 145 or 165 degrees fahrenheit for a short amount of time. This is enough to kill some pathogens but not enough to destroy the spores that cause botulism
In order to destroy those spores, you'd need to heat it up to over 240 degrees fahrenheit which is not done by any industrial method I've seen from researching.

So if industrial pasteurization for beers does not kill the spores that cause botulism, it would still be a risk for bottles to grow and release the toxin. Unless other factors are at play.

Point is, I'd expect to see more cases of Botulism if finished beer kept at room temp in sealed bottles were hospitable environment for the spores to grow and release botulism toxin.

(Note: There are however FDA requirements for canning high pH proteins and vegetables and there's industrial processes for sterilizing to 240 degrees fahrenheit. But from my understanding, this does not occur at breweries anywhere and to that level of temperature)

 

[passedpawn]

You aren't going to get botulism from homebrewed beer. Never happened. pH and alcohol see to that. Of course, if you're making NA beer and drop a dirty potato in there and can it, well you're rolling the dice there.

BTW, boiling isn't enough to ensure the destruction of Botulinum spores. 250°F is necessary for this. It's why pressure canners top out at 15psi - at that pressure, water will get up to 257°F before it vaporizes.

 

[zosimus]

You aren't going to get botulism from homebrewed beer. Never happened. pH and alcohol see to that. Of course, if you're making NA beer and drop a dirty potato in there and can it, well you're rolling the dice there.

BTW, boiling isn't enough to ensure the destruction of Botulinum spores. 250°F is necessary for this. It's why pressure canners top out at 15psi - at that pressure, water will get up to 257°F before it vaporizes.

Yeah note my comment I just posted above.

Basically my secondary concern was with storing bottled beer at room temp given the right conditions (low alcohol and high pH). Which I guess doesn't happen often, but I have sipped beer that has sat at room temp for awhile before chilling.

Basically if you're homebrewing on a budget, you'll bottle carbonate which does require that you leave bottles at room temp for 2 or so weeks. That and not having enough fridge space. People sometimes leave beer at room temp and most of those people don't get botulism
Although, even refrigerating doesn't completely inhibit growth to my understanding. I guess it only slows down the growth, but not completely halting it. So there is still a shelf life, but even I have sipped on 6 month old beer.

 

[zosimus]

So also read that you can denature the toxin by cooking food for 20 minutes at 212 degrees, so I think I'll just boil my beer before drinking and I'll be fine....

 

[Skeeter686]

So also read that you can denature the toxin by cooking food for 20 minutes at 212 degrees, so I think I'll just boil my beer before drinking and I'll be fine....

You may want to use ceramic mugs or coffee cups... not sure if a pilsner glass will hold up to boiling beer!

 

[mac_1103]

I know that homebrewing has been declining for some time now, but I think there are still enough of us doing this that we'd be hearing about botulism from our beer if it were an actual thing. There's some conflicting data from various pages at CDC.gov, but botulism is a reportable disease and it seems that the number of cases reported annually is in the low hundreds. And not all of those are food-borne, much less beer-borne.

 

[Dland]

In a past life, when I had more time, (or thought I did) I canned, pickled & preserved a lot of home grown produce. Botulism can be avoided even with "high risk" produce if one has the right process, and good equipment helps.

Anyway & that said, I have never once worried that I might get botulism from the beer I brew. Perhaps it could happen, in theory, but one would have to be more than careless or trying to do it intentionally.

Perhaps I should start a thread about the dangers of brewing outdoors, consider the possibility of attracting Big Foot , or being carried away by one of those giant birds....not that weird, fresh wort attracts a few critters, good beer even more.

Be careful w glass containers, where closed top footwear when working with hot liquids, and for gosh sake don't try to carry 5 or ten gallons of wort down the cellar stairs, and you'll probably live... to brew another brew. .;]

 

[MaxStout]

So also read that you can denature the toxin by cooking food for 20 minutes at 212 degrees, so I think I'll just boil my beer before drinking and I'll be fine....

Bear with me here...suppose you pour your denatured, boiled beer into a clean glass (that should've been sterilized in an autoclave if you're doin' it right). You sit out on your patio to enjoy your denatured, boiled beer, and all of a sudden, a gust of wind blows a little cloud of dust and debris from a nearby potato field, and some of that dust and debris lands in your previously pristine, denatured, boiled beer and infects it with...wait for it...BOTULISM!!!

Ahhhghhh! Grab the botulism antitoxin and head to the bunker!

 

[worlddivides]

Yeah note my comment I just posted above.

Basically my secondary concern was with storing bottled beer at room temp given the right conditions (low alcohol and high pH). Which I guess doesn't happen often, but I have sipped beer that has sat at room temp for awhile before chilling.

Basically if you're homebrewing on a budget, you'll bottle carbonate which does require that you leave bottles at room temp for 2 or so weeks. That and not having enough fridge space. People sometimes leave beer at room temp and most of those people don't get botulism
Although, even refrigerating doesn't completely inhibit growth to my understanding. I guess it only slows down the growth, but not completely halting it. So there is still a shelf life, but even I have sipped on 6 month old beer.

Most home brewers bottle and most store them at room temperature. I keg now, but I've brewed hundreds of gallons of beer that I bottled and stored at room temperature and botulism is something that never even crossed my mind. I've not only never met a homebrewer who got botulism, I've never even heard of one.

I'm a pretty OCD guy myself, so I have thought about the risks of botulism before... just never in association with beer. I can't even imagine how wort or beer could produce botulism. Before fermentation starts, there's likely too much oxygen there for it to happen, plus it's at too cool of a temperature. Then once fermentation starts, the pH drops drastically and you've got ethanol being produced. It's just an extremely inhospitable environment for it.

 

[mashdar]

I've only had <1%ABV beers at 4.6pH or higher, and most >0.25% were below 4.6 with carbonation. Still, I acidify low ABV beer now.

Normal beers all seem to drop below 4.6 pH very early in fermentation, presumably as a competitive behavior by the yeast.

Hops have well documented antibacterial properties, and I have read that they inhibit botulinum. The evidence specifically for C botulinum in finished beer isn't air-tight, though.

 

[zosimus]

Yeah, I'm assuming it's a power of 2 thing... Alcohol + lower pH works together regardless of whether everything follows the guidelines exactly.
I would be curious though and wonder if this is some microbiologists research paper...

The fact that it hasn't happened in recent history tells (besides prison hooch), tells me beer just isn't somewhere botulism likes to grow which makes sense.

 

[mashdar]

Also, the empirical evidence is very clear: there's been lots of beer since modern CDC reporting. They work hard to trace sources of cases. To my knowledge, beer has never been a cause of a case.

The real world results are much more reassuring than any lab study could be. You can't test every permutation in a lab, and people do a lot of dumb stuff. You're more likely to get struck by lightning while being bitten by a shark than to get botulism from beer.

edit: typos

 

[whoaru99]

How could it ever be enjoyable with that underlying worry. Such a thing never really goes away I think.

 

[zosimus]

How could it ever be enjoyable with that underlying worry. Such a thing never really goes away I think.

It's really a 'ahgh fudge it' mentality...
I mean although botulism is very toxic, with modern medicine only 10% of patients die.
Also it often goes undiagnosed for too long before effective treatment, so if it's caught earlier, your likelihood of survival is higher.... Knowing that you were consuming homebrew it's probably a good thing to tell the ER doctor so they know to test for it early

 

[day_trippr]

Gotta say this whole "Botulism Week" gig isn't the hook someone thought it was

Cheers! ("Ain't no 'Shark Week' for Sure")

 

[mac_1103]

On the plus side, it will get rid of your crow's feet and cure your migraines.

 

[whoaru99]

If the lightning strike doesn't get you first surely the slip in the bathroom or car accident will. LOL.

 

[worlddivides]

It's really a 'ahgh fudge it' mentality...
I mean although botulism is very toxic, with modern medicine only 10% of patients die.
Also it often goes undiagnosed for too long before effective treatment, so if it's caught earlier, your likelihood of survival is higher.... Knowing that you were consuming homebrew it's probably a good thing to tell the ER doctor so they know to test for it early

"You think you have botulism? May I ask why?"
"I was consuming homebrew."
"..."
"Uh, as in beer that was made at home."
"Yeah, I know what it is. I just don't see the connection."

I think you're worrying about something that is so incredibly and extremely unlikely but aren't worried about things that are much more likely. Unless you're actively trying to get botulism, I don't see it happening from beer.

 

[zosimus]

"You think you have botulism? May I ask why?"
"I was consuming homebrew."
"..."
"Uh, as in beer that was made at home."
"Yeah, I know what it is. I just don't see the connection."

I think you're worrying about something that is so incredibly and extremely unlikely but aren't worried about things that are much more likely. Unless you're actively trying to get botulism, I don't see it happening from beer.

Next week will be E. Coli from homebrew

 

[mac_1103]

don't try to carry 5 or ten gallons of wort down the cellar stairs

I still do this every brew day. Danger is my middle name.

 

[whoaru99]

Be sure it's in a glass carboy too for added bonus points.