Exploring "no chill" brewing

[manticle]

awesome, thanks!

also, how does everyone clean their winpacks out? i rinse them a few times with hot water, then fill with oxyclean and hot water solution and leave them till i'm ready to use again, then rise a few times with hot water....
does that seem right? or should i be doing anything different? it sure is time consuming and i'm not sure i'm saving any water vs chilling lol

5 Litres or less (sorry for metric) of boiling water + sodium percarbonate (which I believe is the same as oxyclean) lid on (make sure it is sealed) shake furiously, allow steam to release by backing the lid off a touch. Re-tighten, turn upside down (because I ferment in my cubes and have a krausen ring 3/4 the way up) and let sit till I need to use again.

Much less water than a chiller. If that doesn't work, some raw rice thrown in and shaken about with the above suggestion should scrub the inside for you.

 

[hmunster]

I have done several no chill batches and really like the option. For those who have not seen it, BYO's Mr Wizard gives his view:
"...My personal preference is to cool wort using a wort chiller either in the kettle with an immersion chiller or en route to the fermenter with a plate or shell-in-tube chiller. I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the no-chill method I would make do, but neither one of us is stranded on an island."
http://www.byo.com/stories/issue/article/issues/290-janfeb-2012/2512-debunking-bitterness-no-chill-brewing-mr-wizard

 

[thughes]

I have done several no chill batches and really like the option. For those who have not seen it, BYO's Mr Wizard gives his view:
"...My personal preference is to cool wort using a wort chiller either in the kettle with an immersion chiller or en route to the fermenter with a plate or shell-in-tube chiller. I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the no-chill method I would make do, but neither one of us is stranded on an island."
http://www.byo.com/stories/issue/article/issues/290-janfeb-2012/2512-debunking-bitterness-no-chill-brewing-mr-wizard

I saw that......more "advice" from an "expert" that has obviously never tried the technique.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Seems like the article has concerns with DMS.
The Kolsch I just transfered come out great and there is no sign of DMS.
I brewed on Friday, pitched on Sunday and fermented cool.
It's funny how people will jump to conclusions without even trying something.

Bull

 

[dubiouschewy]

Putting together a presentation for my homebrew club on BIAB + no-chill brewing, so my mind has been on the subject again, and I've been doing some reading.

One interesting thing I've learned is that DMS is present at some level in all beers, in fact, it's a pretty key flavor component in many lagers and lighter brews. Obviously though, it can be overdone. For example, a lot of people fault Rolling Rock for high DMS levels.... then again, since they're a pretty large commercial brew operation, it's obviously there on purpose.

Most DMS is driven off in the boil, but a lesser amount is indeed created as long as the wort is above 160f or so. Here's a link with lots more info-- the chart is especially interesting, but it's not clear how scientific it is. At any rate, it's illustrative and certainly is borne out in my own experience.

Bottom line, as most on this thread will attest, it's just not likely to be a problem, and certainly the tradeoff of equipment, wastewater, and PITA makes it a clear choice for me. And, in the case that DMS is over the top, it can be scrubbed out by C02 in the keg-- just attach the gas to the liquid tube and let it run for a bit.

 

[thughes]

Putting together a presentation for my homebrew club on BIAB + no-chill brewing, so my mind has been on the subject again, and I've been doing some reading.

One interesting thing I've learned is that DMS is present at some level in all beers, in fact, it's a pretty key flavor component in many lagers and lighter brews. Obviously though, it can be overdone. For example, a lot of people fault Rolling Rock for high DMS levels.... then again, since they're a pretty large commercial brew operation, it's obviously there on purpose.

Most DMS is driven off in the boil, but a lesser amount is indeed created as long as the wort is above 160f or so. Here's a link with lots more info-- the chart is especially interesting, but it's not clear how scientific it is. At any rate, it's illustrative and certainly is borne out in my own experience.

Bottom line, as most on this thread will attest, it's just not likely to be a problem, and certainly the tradeoff of equipment, wastewater, and PITA makes it a clear choice for me. And, in the case that DMS is over the top, it can be scrubbed out by C02 in the keg-- just attach the gas to the liquid tube and let it run for a bit.

Nice post. You seem to grasp the difference between what has been written and passed around as "fact" and what happens in reality. I have been practising no-chill for almost a year now, with cube times ranging from hours to weeks, and have not experienced any issues with DMS. Of course, YMMV.

 

[ghpeel]

Its funny how the "experts" who discredit No Chill brewing because of DMS concerns have never actually tried it properly. They either dismiss it out of hand (like Mr. Wizard), or they perhaps tried a less-than-ideal variant on it (like just pouring hot wort in an ale pale and waiting 3 days to pitch).

What really bugs me about the Mr. Wizard thing is that his answer reads like he's done No chill before and found DMS in his beer, which is not the case. He's using his brewing dogma (which is mostly correct) to write-off a practice that conflicts with that dogma.

I can't stand it when "experts" (in any field) hear about a new technique or process, and immediately discredit it because it doesn't fit their mold. In the case of No Chill, all Mr. Wizard had to do would be to Google it for 10 minutes to see the HUNDREDS of posts from brewers saying "I do No Chill and have ZERO DMS issues." That alone should have given any expert with an open mind a chance to pause and perhaps research further or (heaven forbid) actually try a batch and see.

 

[H-ost]

All awesome points. Not to nit pick but I don't like hearing people say that No-chill is in anyway a new idea. Aside from it being the norm in australia for many years, how do you think historically beer has been chilled? I see chillers as the innovation and in no way a bad thing but it's funny how in 100 years(?) people can forget how it has been done for thousands.

I love no-chill, I just wish I learned about before I started brewing instead of wasting time and money on building chillers.

 

[Rivenin]

i've just been using my brew kettle as the chiller, has been working wonderfully so far, i've skipped the cubes.
Brew in the AM, for the flame out, i just soak a shirt or towell in starsan, throw the lid ontop and put the towell/shirt over the top and let it cool till night time, then bam! pitch and all is well.

 

[dubiouschewy]

On the subject of DMS, I WILL say I just brewed a 95% pilsner/5% toasted oats blonde ale (OG 1.048 FG 1.011) just to see what the DMS levels were like.

Not gonna lie, there's substantial DMS in this beer... I'd call it out of style for a blonde, but not really sure if it'd be out of style for a German or American lager. However, this weekend it won second place light hybrid in a local comp (just 7 days after brewing). I haven't gotten the scoresheets back yet to see if DMS is mentioned.

My next step in investigating no-chill DMS will be to buy a couple commercial examples of DMS-appropriate styles and do a side by side tasting. I will also be bubbling CO2 through a growler of the blonde, which I've read can effectively scrub DMS out of finished beer. If it works, that would be a super-easy fix for the few light, mostly pilsner styles where DMS is likely to be an issue, at least in competition.

I've brewed abou 10 no-chill batches so far, and this is the first DMS heavy brew... and I was doing it on purpose. There are lots of other variables at play, especially malt type and target style. What's more, DMS discussions in the brewing lit are often directed at an audience of high-adjunct, light lager brewers- styles that homebrewers, if I may generalize, don't gravitate towards. Not that I don't love I nice, crisp pilsner.

My take is still that if you are looking to simplify your brew day or avoid incorporating new equipment and processes, No Chill a great option with few downsides. No brew rig is perfectly suited for all styles and brewing techniques-- for example, temperature controlled HERMS/RIMS set-ups with ported kettles can make things like decoction mashes and effective whirlpooling a real challenge.

No Chill as I practice it (combined with stovetop BIAB for maximum minimalism and simplicity) makes decoctions and whirlpooling a breeze! Everything is a trade-off, and I'm surprised at the skeptical tone that still greets practical approaches like this one. I'd bet money that if your average mid-size craft breweries could drop their 30 barrel batches to pitching temps in 24 hours without the energy, effort, water, and equipment required for rapid forced chilling, followed by the high pitching rates that are easy for homebrewers to achieve, we'd see a lot more of them doing it.

 

[dubiouschewy]

Just to re-emphasize that DMS is an acceptable flavor in many beers with Pilsner malt or adjuncts, I copy/pasted the relevant parts of the aroma descriptions for BJCP styles with DMS listed as acceptable, expected at low levels, or as a key component. For No-Chill brewing, the question isn't whether there is technically more DMS in the beer, but whether that's a problem.

Anyway, here goes:

1A. Lite American Lager, 1C. Premium American Lager, and 4A. Dark American Lager: ...Low levels of yeast character (green apples, DMS, or fruitiness) are optional but acceptable...

1D. Munich Helles and 1E. Dortmunder Export: ...Pils malt aroma... and a low background note of DMS (from Pils malt)...

2A. German Pilsner (Pils): ...May have... a low background note of DMS (from Pils malt).

2C. Classic American Pilsner: Low to medium grainy, corn-like or sweet maltiness may be evident...Some DMS is acceptable.

5A. Maibock/Helles Bock: ...May have a light DMS aroma from Pils malt... May have a light DMS flavor from Pils malt.

6A. Cream Ale: ... A sweet, corn-like aroma and low levels of DMS are commonly found...A low to moderate corny flavor from corn adjuncts is commonly found, as is some DMS.

Most interesting to me is the levels in Cream Ale, which as an ale should have lower DMS levels according to what I've read about it's volatility during fermentation. Incidentally, I'll be entering that blonde as a cream ale next time.

 

[GlassblowersBrew]

Maybe this has already been brought up in this thread and if it has I apologize for repetition..... as it is 125 pages long, I haven't read all of it and a search yielded nothing.....

If I use DME instead of a base malt and mash for 1 hour with a full specialty grain grain bill in a large grain sack in the boil kettle and do the no chill method, can I do a short 30 min boil and not worry too much about DMS. My understanding was that the full boil in the extract manufacturing process drives off most DMS precursors. I am trying to figure out a very simple, quick and easy to clean up brewing method that still yields good results. I am on a serious time budget. I just don't have tons of time to spend brewing, but I do very much enjoy it. Just busy right now.

Process for IPA's would be:
1) Heat 13 gal water in boil kettle to 150 and mash a few pounds specialty grains in a grain sack for 1 hour with FWH
2) Blast with heat and bring to a boil
3) Toss in bittering hops in a hop bag and start 30 min boil
4) Toss in more hops and whirl floc at 15 mins in a hop bag
5) Toss in more hops at flameout in a hop bag
6) Cover keggle with a sanitized lid and walk away for the night
7) Next day rack to primary fermenter and pitch starter made with this beers wort
8) Day 3 dry hop
9) Day 6 dry hop
10) Week 2 transfer to keg and enjoy

Does this sound reasonable...? Thanks for any advice

 

[JumboBlimpJumbo]

That should be fine. I've done a couple batches that were liquid malt extract either by itself or with 1/2 lb or so of caramel malt, with the only one single hop addition after flameout added directly to the bucket I used to chill overnight. Just boiled it for 10 minutes and added 4 oz of a single variety of hops, quick and easy. If you add high enough AA% hops you can get all your bittering this way without boiling the hops at all, but it is kind of a smooth lingering bitterness. There is a good amount of aroma, and the hop flavor comes through a lot - a pure summit hop batch tasted kind of like froot loops to me and one with sorachi ace tasted like lemongrass and kind of like chewable vitamin C tablets. The flavors weren't super balanced but I think it is a good way to get an idea of the overall characteristics of a single variety of hops.

The good thing about this method is you can easily brew a 10 minute batch while you are mashing a regular all grain batch with just a little more work.

I probably wouldn't go with a large amount of hops that remain in contact with the wort while it cools - you could take your 30 minute and 15 minute hop addition out with a spoon right before flame out. One of my beers had a kind of vegetal/grassy flavor when I first kegged it, but that faded within a week or so. I couldn't taste anything that I would describe as DMS in the beers, and I took one to a homebrew club meeting and everyone there liked it quite a bit, even after I told them it was a no chill.

Hope that is somewhat helpful. Good luck!

 

[GlassblowersBrew]

Thanks for the feedback. I feel lazy because there are so many forum members that are meticulous with every detail of the brewing process and I am trying to find the fastest way to a great IPA. Just cramped on time.

Is there any problem chilling in my boil kettle? Just trying to avoid cleaning another vessel. If all I have to clean is my boil kettle, hop bags and 2 fermenters I will be stoked. Thanks for the feedback

My intention is to have excellent sanitation and a very stable and healthy fermentation. I think if I make sure those two things are most focused on the beer will have to be pretty decent.

 

[GlassblowersBrew]

Thanks for the advice on not adding too much hops before chilling. I will use a smaller amount of my highest AA hops for bittering, FWH for flavor and dry hops for aroma. Good tip!

 

[JumboBlimpJumbo]

I haven't chilled in my kettle but I've read on here that several people have with good results. I think as long as you have a somewhat tight fitting lid it should be fine. I just use my fermenting bucket to chill the wort, with vodka in the airlock and a vodka soaked cotton ball in between the little riser part and the stem so that when air sucks back it has to go through that. I've done probably 20-30 batches this way and left some of them up to a year before pitching yeast with no problems at all. I don't even bother transferring the wort off of all the break material and I keg my beer straight out of primary because like you I sometimes feel lazy. I haven't noticed a difference in quality from when I used to chill my wort and transfer to a secondary, so I've stuck with it.

 

[JumboBlimpJumbo]

BTW, I don't know if I was very clear on my comment about how much hops you use, add all the hops you want in the boil, but I would fish them out before you let your wort chill overnight unless you specifically want them for that purpose. When you leave them in there you get a good amount of the bittering potential, so if you only want them for flavoring or aroma keep that in mind. Also having tons of hops in contact with the hot wort for a long time could end up giving you kind of a grassy flavor.

 

[GlassblowersBrew]

I'm trying to simplify the entire process... Started with extract on the stove top and chilling in my sink and went all the way to tricking out every part of the process down to a 2 burner brewstand made out of redwood, doing all grain with a hopback and a whirlpool chiller with a march pump and now I have arrived at DME with no chill..... simple simple simple...... What has happened to me......lol

 

[GlassblowersBrew]

BTW, I don't know if I was very clear on my comment about how much hops you use, add all the hops you want in the boil, but I would fish them out before you let your wort chill overnight unless you specifically want them for that purpose. When you leave them in there you get a good amount of the bittering potential, so if you only want them for flavoring or aroma keep that in mind. Also having tons of hops in contact with the hot wort for a long time could end up giving you kind of a grassy flavor.

Oh, gotcha.... I was planing on using hop bags to keep the bulk of the sediment out of the primary. I will pull them out after flameout to keep the alfalfa flavors to a minimum.

I have no shortage of hops.... I love hops and have frikin tons......2 years ago while I was really gung ho brewing, I bought 25 lbs of hops. Shortly after that, life caught up. They have been sitting in a chest freezer in their original vaccum bags since then. I haven't brewed in 2 years..... I really hope they are still good......

 

[JumboBlimpJumbo]

I really hope they are still good......

Only one way to find out

 

[hmunster]

Its funny how the "experts" who discredit No Chill brewing because of DMS concerns have never actually tried it properly. They either dismiss it out of hand (like Mr. Wizard), or they perhaps tried a less-than-ideal variant on it (like just pouring hot wort in an ale pale and waiting 3 days to pitch).

For a few more experts...
I recently listened to a beersmith podcast from a few months ago:
"My panel includes John Palmer, Gordon Strong and Denny Conn in a wide-ranging discussion of beer brewing techniques and myths.
.
.
The panel talks about the advantages of rapidly cooling your beer and the rise of a new technique called “no chill” brewing"

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2011/12/22/beer-brewing-myths-holiday-episode-beersmith-podcast-29/

 

[ghpeel]

Ok hmunster, you're kind of annoying me here. Did you listen to that podcast? Those guys ALL DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. They dismissed the technique while having never tried it themselves.

The closest experience they have is the anecdote that Denny mentions about Dan Listermann saying that no chill works great. Dan Listermann is a pal of Randy Mosher (Radical Brewing) and sells a line of popular homebrewing equipment including "Phil’s Phalse Bottom", "Phil’s Lauter Tun" and "Phil’s Sparger". That's the only real-world contact that they have with No Chill Brewing.

I really don't know what to say to people who hear 90% positive feedback about a new technique, yet still dismiss the technique out of hand without trying it themselves, because it violates their dogma. That seems to me like people are just holding on to old processes just because they have so much work invested in those processes.

 

[thughes]

Ok hmunster, you're kind of annoying me here. Did you listen to that podcast? Those guys ALL DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. They dismissed the technique while having never tried it themselves.

The closest experience they have is the anecdote that Denny mentions about Dan Listermann saying that no chill works great. Dan Listermann is a pal of Randy Mosher (Radical Brewing) and sells a line of popular homebrewing equipment including "Phil’s Phalse Bottom", "Phil’s Lauter Tun" and "Phil’s Sparger". That's the only real-world contact that they have with No Chill Brewing.

I really don't know what to say to people who hear 90% positive feedback about a new technique, yet still dismiss the technique out of hand without trying it themselves, because it violates their dogma. That seems to me like people are just holding on to old processes just because they have so much work invested in those processes.

Shhh, stop trying to convert them and lets just keep this technique to ourselves.

 

[hmunster]

Ok hmunster, you're kind of annoying me here. Did you listen to that podcast? Those guys ALL DO EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. They dismissed the technique while having never tried it themselves.

Yes, I did listen, and why I posted it. Sorry for the miscommuinication, but that's the point I was trying to make - these "experts" dismissed it without any experience.

 

[ghpeel]

Yes, I did listen, and why I posted it. Sorry for the miscommuinication, but that's the point I was trying to make - these "experts" dismissed it without any experience.

Oh! Well let me apologize then. I didn't realize you were echoing my point! Cheers.

 

[hmunster]

Oh! Well let me apologize then. I didn't realize you were echoing my point! Cheers.

Not a problem.

btw - the one I found interesting/confusing was Denny Conn. I got the impression that he was about homebrewing for fun, do what works for you, etc. I like that attitude. But on this point he seemed unwilling to consider that it's been working for many brewers for quite a few years.

 

[ghpeel]

Not a problem.

btw - the one I found interesting/confusing was Denny Conn. I got the impression that he was about homebrewing for fun, do what works for you, etc. I like that attitude. But on this point he seemed unwilling to consider that it's been working for many brewers for quite a few years.

Yeah. I regularly see Denny's posts on a view other places, and while he is more laid back than a few others, no one but Ol' Uncle Charlie has truly said "relax, dont worry, have a homebrew!"

For example, Denny has championed the idea that decoction mashing is basically pointless, and he's also hopped (no pun intended) on the First Wort Hopping bandwagon. I guess No Chilling is just too radical for him. HOWEVER, he was the only guy on that panel to mention that Dan Listerman guy, who has done No Chill successfully.

 

[hmunster]

Dan Listerman guy, who has done No Chill successfully.

Not too surprised to see Listermann has done it. From his questioning of the actual value of rehydrating dry yeast vs. the risk of screwing it up, I get the impression he is more of the practical brewer than the theoretical brewer. I'll have to search down his experience with no-chill. Thanks

 

[HDChef]

I've been using no chill for the past year. It definitely works for me! I just made a cream ale and used 1.5 pounds of honey in it. I added the honey to my bucket and racked the hot wort onto it to dissolve and mix it. The next day when I racked of the trub (of which I only had less than a pint!), the honey aroma was incredible! When I make meads, I don't boil so I keep a lot of the floral honey character. My thought was to use the heat of the wort to pasteurize the honey and seal it to trap the aroma in. So far, I'm very happy with the results. I'll know for sure in about a month.

 

[H-ost]

I've been using no chill for the past year. It definitely works for me! I just made a cream ale and used 1.5 pounds of honey in it. I added the honey to my bucket and racked the hot wort onto it to dissolve and mix it. The next day when I racked of the trub (of which I only had less than a pint!), the honey aroma was incredible! When I make meads, I don't boil so I keep a lot of the floral honey character. My thought was to use the heat of the wort to pasteurize the honey and seal it to trap the aroma in. So far, I'm very happy with the results. I'll know for sure in about a month.

+1 Very interesting...