English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[eshea3]

A little OT but on the basis that there's some USians here interested in English styles so may know something of the US attempts at same, the Great British Beer Festival (the big national CAMRA event in London, 2-6 August) has published its initial beer list - they're obviously still working on it, but I was wondering if there were any particular recommendations out of the US contingent - apparently all cask-conditioned and on handpull? Obviously there's a few I've heard of like Sam, Stone and Odells, but not most of them :
https://gbbf.realaledb.com/livebar.php

Good to see a couple of my hometown breweries in attendance - Heavy Seas and Brewer's Art

 

[kmarkstevens]

I'm testing out a second brew of Tony's Pre-1979 Boddington's with Chevallier malt right now. I've brewed it several times with Maris Otter, and today using up the last of my Chevallier on a 7 gallon batch. I really like the recipe, and Boddy's in the nitro can has been a go to since I was working in Hong Kong in 1994.

Just to rub noses in it, RonnieP is going to be at the Seattle Machine House Brewery on Monday. I have my ticket and will be there, although I've got not one but two pesky concalls with Asia at the same time. I'll at least tip my pint of mild in Ron's general direction.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I have brewed a few beers using my bags of Crisp Crystal malt I ordered when the old ones were getting thin, and have noticed the same thing as @monkeymath mentioned.
And also from their 240ebc Crystal in my mild I got that really intense burnt sugar and raisiny, almost metallic/acidic taste I usually only get from +300ebc Crystals. Also from trying the DRC I have realised I really don't like dark crystals other then maybe as a tiny portion of the total amount of crystal to add a little dark fruit complexity, I seem to pick up that sharp acidic flavour really easily otherwise.
I can get Simpsons malts here and have ordered their Crystal T50 and Heritage Crystal and will toss the Crisp ones.

I am thinking of replacing my roasted/toasted specialty malts when they run out aswell, as Simpsons from what I have gathered when googling around are regarded to have both better and more consistent quality stuff. How does the Amber and Brown compare to Crisp? The Brown seems a fair bit darker and probably richer in flavour, but the Amber seems kinda same-same colour wise and should be similair in flavour right?

 

[kmarkstevens]

Ron Pattinson - worth checking out. Today he spoke about mild at Machine House brewery in Seattle. He really knows about historical beer, the brewery had 5 milds on cask:

My favorite of the historical was the 1905 Albany. That was a pretty unique taste with 6 row, 25% flaked corn and a bunch of corn sugar. Not sure if I would want to pound this all night but a pint or three, sure.

The 1890 (kinda sweet) and XX (just OK) were ok but I prefer the modern #4 Dark Mild, which is superlative. The Rye mild I tried a few weeks ago and in my humble opinion was not as good as the standard dark mild.

Bill the brewer revealed that he quite likes EKG + Hallertauer Middlefruh combination, and he does the hallertauer hopback with whole hops.

Favorite quotes from Ron:
Question: what is your preferred ABV that you enjoy but can still remember in the morning?
Answer: 7 or 8% ABV

Had a big gulp of #4 Dark Mild: "That's a nice mild"

"The milds I had as a young man got their flavor from Invert #3. No specialty malts."

Pontificated a bit on why milds went from light to dark in color "porter was disappearing and the publicans needed something to put slops in."

Spoke the night before on the AK style at a different micro brewery the night before. I didn't go but the conclusion was: "AK was a bitter sold young."

I left when the Q&A kinda devolved a bit with audience members trying to show off their knowlege. Ron was patient but would retort something along the lines of "Northern Brown and Southern Brown distinction is bollocks. Newcastle Brown was always an outlier."

At least one of his son's (Andrew?) was there. tall chunky stocky lad, prolly 6'4". He politely kept coming in for 2 pints. When I left, it looked like Andrew was sitting with someone that sure looked like his brother outside at the picnic tables.

Anyhoo, it's worth making an effort to see Ron. He truely enjoys the subject. And shameless plug, one of my kids gifted me one of Ron's bespoke historic recipes based on "my dad likes hoppy low ABV recipes." So, Ron went back to the 1920's to find a pretty nice AK that I still brew around my birthday every year. Both the in person and historic recipes were money well spent.

 

[HM-2]

I brewed this one as a ~2.5 gal batch (11L fermenter volume) a month or so back for my dad's 73rd birthday. He's a huge fan of the British Strong ales (Fullers 1845, Adnam's Broadside, etc) and I wanted to brew something to his preferences and specification. He took home a 1 gal mini keg of it and I put aside some bottles from the rest to condition and age.

The keg came back in about 10 days and he absolutely loved it. I've also tried one of the bottles (got to check they're carbonating) and other than being slightly over-carbed, I'm extremely pleased with it. Can't wait to see how it ages out.

Grain:

Amount	Name	% Grist
2.82 kg	Maris Otter Pale	80.25
299 g	Amber Malt	8.5
141 g	Golden Syrup	4
123 g	Cara Gold	3.5
106 g	Crystal DRC	3
26 g	Chocolate Malt	0.75

Hops

Amount	Name	IBU	Use	Time
20 g	Jester T45 (11.6%)	31.2	Boil	20m
30 g	Fuggle (4.5%)	12.4	Boil	10m
30 g	Fuggle (4.5%)	3.8	Hopstand	20m

Yeast: Fermentis S-04

OG: 1.072
FG: 1.017
ABV: 7.2%
EBC: 32.5
IBU: 47
BU/GU: 0.66

Mashed at 67°C for 60 minutes with a 10 minute mash out at 75°C.
Fermented at 18°C with a ramp to 22°C beginning day 3

 

[Miraculix]

I have brewed a few beers using my bags of Crisp Crystal malt I ordered when the old ones were getting thin, and have noticed the same thing as @monkeymath mentioned.
And also from their 240ebc Crystal in my mild I got that really intense burnt sugar and raisiny, almost metallic/acidic taste I usually only get from +300ebc Crystals. Also from trying the DRC I have realised I really don't like dark crystals other then maybe as a tiny portion of the total amount of crystal to add a little dark fruit complexity, I seem to pick up that sharp acidic flavour really easily otherwise.
I can get Simpsons malts here and have ordered their Crystal T50 and Heritage Crystal and will toss the Crisp ones.

I am thinking of replacing my roasted/toasted specialty malts when they run out aswell, as Simpsons from what I have gathered when googling around are regarded to have both better and more consistent quality stuff. How does the Amber and Brown compare to Crisp? The Brown seems a fair bit darker and probably richer in flavour, but the Amber seems kinda same-same colour wise and should be similair in flavour right?

I'm afraid you'll be throwing away the heritage crystal as well. I tried it and I got astringency plus your flavory descriptions of the dark malts you don't like. I won't buy it again.

After long term aging it tends to get a bit better.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Hmm, that don't sound too good.
Did you use it on it's own or with some darker crystal? As it's only about 180 ebc and far from a dark crystal malt it should logically give those medium toffee/caramellish flavours.
I'll try it out, otherwise the T-50 will do.

 

[Miraculix]

Hmm, that don't sound too good.
Did you use it on it's own or with some darker crystal? As it's only about 180 ebc and far from a dark crystal malt it should logically give those medium toffee/caramellish flavours.
I'll try it out, otherwise the T-50 will do.

It's a completely different thing to my taste buds. No sweetness at all. I used it on it's own (about 8% on it's own) and in the mix (about 4%), one beer was a dumper and one was ok-ish after a few months. Both were bitters.

My guess is that it's usage is limited to below 5% and best would be a minimum aging time of two to three months.

I really wanted to like it, but I don't.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I planned to use it in a Best Bitter, I might do 6% crystal and do like 4/2% T50/Heritage.

 

[Miraculix]

I planned to use it in a Best Bitter, I might do 6% crystal and do like 4/2% T50/Heritage.

That sounds ok to me.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

It might be one of those crystal malts that need a sweeter crystal to blend with to offset astringency, I dunno.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

And speaking of Ron, I have been reading his Porter! Especially the late 1800's Barclay Perkin Porter recipes, and drawing inspiration
I don't really like copying recipes straight away, so I made one heavily inspired by the 1885-1900 period recipes I found. Gonna experiment with a 50/50 blend of Brewly English yeast and MJ M36 for this batch, if it works well that blend will likely be my "house strain" for English ales.

Maris Otter as base
15% Amber
10% Brown
7% Black malt
4% Simpsons Heritage Crystal
15% invert 3 late boil
67c mash for 75 min

90 min boil
Challenger as bittering
0.7g/L Fuggle for 30min
0.7g/L before I start chilling

OG 1.055
FG 1.012-13 somewhere, aiming for 75%AA and 5.5-ish % abv
30IBU

 

[Miraculix]

It might be one of those crystal malts that need a sweeter crystal to blend with to offset astringency, I dunno.

That might work! Lowering the amount to 2-3% and adding about 3-5% of a sweet crystal. Basically what you suggested.

And speaking of Ron, I have been reading his Porter! Especially the late 1800's Barclay Perkin Porter recipes, and drawing inspiration
I don't really like copying recipes straight away, so I made one heavily inspired by the 1885-1900 period recipes I found. Gonna experiment with a 50/50 blend of Brewly English yeast and MJ M36 for this batch, if it works well that blend will likely be my "house strain" for English ales.

Maris Otter as base
15% Amber
10% Brown
7% Black malt
4% Simpsons Heritage Crystal
15% invert 3 late boil
67c mash for 75 min

90 min boil
Challenger as bittering
0.7g/L Fuggle for 30min
0.7g/L before I start chilling

OG 1.055
FG 1.012-13 somewhere, aiming for 75%AA and 5.5-ish % abv
30IBU

That sounds like a minimum 4-6 months aged beer to me. Before that, it will most likely be undrinkable (at least to my sensitive palate). The heritage and the brown will add up in a bad way early on but might turn into something nice after the aging time.

Edit: the amber is way over the top!! Together with the heritage and the brown, this will be the definition of astringent.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I do indeed intend to age it, I let all my porters/stouts age for a few months before drinking, my latest sat in the keg in my basement for 3months after the initial 3 weeks to carb up before I hooked it up to serve from...

 

[monkeymath]

It might be one of those crystal malts that need a sweeter crystal to blend with to offset astringency, I dunno.

Honestly I don't think astringency is something I want to add to any beer.

Gonna experiment with a 50/50 blend of Brewly English yeast and MJ M36 for this batch, if it works well that blend will likely be my "house strain" for English ales.

Do you have some experience with M36? Bought two packs of it, but I don't really know what to expect. Will it be too bland for a bitter? Suitable for stout, maybe?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Honestly I don't think astringency is something I want to add to any beer.



Do you have some experience with M36? Bought two packs of it, but I don't really know what to expect. Will it be too bland for a bitter? Suitable for stout, maybe?

I do not, but I know many guys over at the British hbt version like it, supposed to be mildly fruity with some kiwi and pear esters, I am gonna try a blend to hopefully get a little more complexity in yeast character.
Perhaps @An Ankoù can chime in?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I just tasted a few grains of the Heritage, and raw atleast I tasted no astringency or dark fruit character, just caramell and they were kinda sweet.
I'll see how it turns out when mashed.

 

[Miraculix]

I just tasted a few grains of the Heritage, and raw atleast I tasted no astringency or dark fruit character, just caramell and they were kinda sweet.
I'll see how it turns out when mashed.

That matches my initial experience.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

As some of you may remember, I have been looking for ways to mimic cask beer from my kegerator, and I think I got it now.
I put stout spouts on my nuka tap nozzles...
So naturally carbing to 2vols, and serving pressure equal to that at 11c combined with the nozzle knocking out a fair bit of carbonation gets it just right.
I have to start pouring slowly along the side of the glass first, then when the glass is filled a bit just dip the nozzle in and pour, to get a sort of handpump nozzle with sparkler like effect.
It takes a few minutes to pour a pint but IMO that is a justified trade off to get a cask like result with a lovely finger thick creamy head and a more appropriate non american friendly level of carbonation.

 

[tracer bullet]

^^^ Nice

I've got a 3 gallon batch currently fermenting, using a lot of advice found in this thread. "ESB" recipe I'm calling it - Maris Otter base, crystals in the 55 and 120 range both, skipped the Victory malt (per advice here), added some #2 invert I purchased (also per here) and put a lot more First Gold hops in it that I bought new and believe they were well taken care of. Using 1968 again and set things for 72F. Really looking forward to it.

If I have a point it's something along the lines of thanking everyone here for the thread and contributions and answers to questions, mine and others.

 

[warx]

I'm brewing a Fullers ESB clone tomorrow but with the OG raised a tad. Going to use a packet of Nottingham and a packet of S-04 (25L batch and ~6%) mixed. OG upped as hypothetically half of the batch could be run through a pot still.

Pale, Medium Crystal, Torrified Wheat, Flaked Barley, Chocolate, Challenger, Target (well, Fuggles), and EKG.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Miraculix
I saw your Edit now, and I understand your concern, I am mildly sceptical myself, although some of the recipes from the period I chose in that book are even more absurd regarding brown and amber malt portions.
If it made beer considered to be of supreme quality back then, it should work today is my reasoning...

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix
I saw your Edit now, and I understand your concern, I am mildly sceptical myself, although some of the recipes from the period I chose in that book are even more absurd regarding brown and amber malt portions.
If it made beer considered to be of supreme quality back then, it should work today is my reasoning...

I think that the quoted proportions are that high because the respective malts during that time might have been different, compared to the modern "equivalents".

I cannot verify that, I only know that for brown malt this is certainly true, as the old school brown malt used to be diastatic, i.e. a completely different thing compared to today's brown malts.

Even if the difference in time is not as big as the gap between diastatic and today's brown malt, it's hard to say if the malt of the original recipe has modern equivalents that share more traits than just the name.

Well, somebody just has to try I guess .

Good luck!

 

[HM-2]

I'm brewing a Fullers ESB clone tomorrow but with the OG raised a tad. Going to use a packet of Nottingham and a packet of S-04 (25L batch and ~6%) mixed. OG upped as hypothetically half of the batch could be run through a pot still.

Pale, Medium Crystal, Torrified Wheat, Flaked Barley, Chocolate, Challenger, Target (well, Fuggles), and EKG.

I've done one "imperial" ESB before, and IMO the style can really be adapted to a higher gravity. 7.2% and 1.015 FG, mostly MO with DRC, a little wheat and extra light crystal with UK Target and EKG. Gravity bulked out with a combination of golden syrup and treacle, and fermented with WLP007.

Still think it's one of my favourite beers I've ever made.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Well, the mash is almost done on the Porter and I will soon start the combined mash out and sparge.I
went with a 75 min mash because only about half of the grain in it are base malt, to ensure full conversion.
There are some word flying around that Crisp and Simpsons Amber, and Crisps Brown are probably fairly similair to the older varieties, so hopefully if this high amount of roast worked back in the day, it should work out for me, this ale is intended to condition until Christmas, so I will follow the tradition of lenghty condition periods of Porters aswell...

 

[Miraculix]

Well, the mash is almost done on the Porter and I will soon start the combined mash out and sparge.I
went with a 75 min mash because only about half of the grain in it are base malt, to ensure full conversion.
There are some word flying around that Crisp and Simpsons Amber, and Crisps Brown are probably fairly similair to the older varieties, so hopefully if this high amount of roast worked back in the day, it should work out for me, this ale is intended to condition until Christmas, so I will follow the tradition of lenghty condition periods of Porters aswell...

Sounds reasonable to me!

I am really looking forward to hearing your final thoughts on the finished beer!

 

[DuncB]

I need to finish a keg to get a Sankey connector to access my porter made with manuka smoked malt and oaked in keg since last November. Perfect winter weather for it, frustrating.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

How much oak did you put in? If I like this porter I am playing with the idea to rebrew it and toss an oak cube or to in the keg to imitate the cask ageing process of yore...

 

[DuncB]

I put one medium toast French oak spiral in 20 litres.
Can't comment on the taste.
I've only used oak one other time in an all Brett fermented saison, same quantity, not given that a taste test either.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The Porter is in the Ferm Chamber, pitched about 12hrs ago, it is starting to ferment but not quite at full speed yet, by lunch I expect it to bubble away like crazy.
I ended up a little short on the OG, 51 instead of 55, my pre boil gravity and volumes were correct, so I likely overestimated the PPG of the invert a bit.