English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Miraculix]

That marmalade taste I get when using First Gold hops. I’m not sure what Fullers use, but I doubt they’re getting that flavour from the yeast.

As Northern brewer already said, is the yeast. If your want to see it for yourself, try Imperial pub, that one brings the same characteristics the Fuller's beers all share!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does anyone know the nominal mg/L levels of Ca, Mg, Cl, and SO4 that Fuller's uses in their brewing water for ESB? Alkalinity (or bicarbonate) would be a bonus, as would be the pH to which they adjust in the kettle during the boil phase.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Nah, it's famously their yeast - which is why I'm sceptical that 002 or 1968 are really from Fullers, unless they've changed along the way. But see e.g. this from their former headbrewer : https://keepthingslocal.com/fullers-brewing-up-a-storm/

"One constant of all the ales is the secret ‘house yeast’. ‘It has a very orange-y, marmalade-y flavour,’ says George. ‘It’s easy to pick up in ESB and, with Oliver’s Island, we enhance that flavour by brewing with orange peel.’"

The article says she was promoted to head brewer in January. If she is former, then apparently she didn't stay with them very long.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Article is from 2017, she was poached by Bath around the time of the Asahi takeover a few months ago which would be a reasonable excuse to get out. But she's been brewing there 20 years, safe to say she knows the yeast.

I'd suggest any discussion of the specifics of Fullers beers, happens over on that other thread as there's a lot of detail alreadythere. From memory it's a pretty traditional approach, start with tap water and just add a bit of gypsum and adjust pH, I think those brew sheets have mineral additions.

 

[Hanglow]

Yeah they just use tap water
http://twmediadevcdn.azureedge.net/waterquality/WQ Report_Z0347_Chiswick & Hammersmith.pdf

It's hard water, they'll treat it with Sulphuric and/or hydrochloric acid I guess then gypsum and/or calcium chloride etc.


Speaking of Fullers, one of their ex brewers who is now a brewer there (Fullers bought Dark Star a while ago) posted a recipe for Dark Matter, a strong ale on his twitter account. Looks quite tasty, I don't think I've had it. I do like the orther Dark Star beers I've tried like HopHead
https://twitter.com/Darkstar_Henry/status/1179393844145725441/photo/1

notty and s04 yeast

 

[ba-brewer]

Anyone with experience with the BrewLabs Sheffield wards yeast. I brewed a bitters a while back and just tapped the keg and think I might be getting very light phenolic flavor. The beer is very malty in aroma so it might be masking the smell but I don't think I can smell anything phenolic.

I have used that yeast a half dozen times or so over the past year and have not had any phenolic character. I find it occasionally produces some sulfur when underpitched or fermented cool, which quickly dissipates, but otherwise it has been a nice malty-dry strain.

Thanks @bierhaus15, sounds like I may have polluted that beer somehow. The beer did not attenuate too dry only about 69% attenuation, nice clear beer. I do like the way it highlights the malty aroma.

Too many vault yeasts to work thru so I did not repitch the yeast, will have to give it another soon. Hopefully I did not pollute the slants I made too.

Curiosity got the best of me, was wondering if I messed up the slants I made too so built up some yeast from those slants to do a test brew. I could not detect any phenolic aroma from the starter. On brew day I poured a pint from the first attempt and it no longer tastes or smells phenolic. I was thinking maybe it was a problem with my taps or lines but I remember detecting the clove aroma/flavor the day I keg that beer. I have had beers lose a little phenolic flavor/aroma but never gone completely.

I let the test batch go 2 weeks before I kegged it, no phenolics and got an attenuation of 79%.

 

[FlyDoctor]

My question is about the ‘dilution’ method for making invert sugars. *from the blog unholymess.

I understand the principle - mix certain amounts of blackstrap molasses with clear or golden invert syrup to get a desired SRM.

My question is - is it that simple? I read something that led me to believe that you still actually need to heat/boiled the mix for it to work properly. Can someone clarify the method please?

This came up as I was brewing the Fullers 1910 AK recipe from Ron P and it calls for two different inverts. So - given that I’m lazy which is why I didn’t make my own inverts from scratch - I calculated the amount of blackstrap and clear invert for each sugar - added the amounts needed to make each distinct syrup - and then simply mixed them all in the brew kettle. Is this wrong?

I will make a shot at making the syrup myself after reading an suggestion here somewhere about using the oven to hold temps - but now that I have the molasses - I thought I’d still make use of it.

Thanks!!

 

[Miraculix]

My question is about the ‘dilution’ method for making invert sugars. *from the blog unholymess.

I understand the principle - mix certain amounts of blackstrap molasses with clear or golden invert syrup to get a desired SRM.

My question is - is it that simple? I read something that led me to believe that you still actually need to heat/boiled the mix for it to work properly. Can someone clarify the method please?

This came up as I was brewing the Fullers 1910 AK recipe from Ron P and it calls for two different inverts. So - given that I’m lazy which is why I didn’t make my own inverts from scratch - I calculated the amount of blackstrap and clear invert for each sugar - added the amounts needed to make each distinct syrup - and then simply mixed them all in the brew kettle. Is this wrong?

I will make a shot at making the syrup myself after reading an suggestion here somewhere about using the oven to hold temps - but now that I have the molasses - I thought I’d still make use of it.

Thanks!!

There is a lot of caramelisation and other chemical reactions going on during the heating period which completely change the flavour of the resulting product. In other words, simply mixing up molasses and sugar won't result in the same flavour.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

@FlyDoctor going off of what Miraculix said, you need to blend the simple invert and the blackstrap together and then heat until it breaks (boils) about 10-20 minutes.

It still is really simple, but that period of heating is definitely necessary to develop the flavors.

 

[Miraculix]

As far as I understood it from reading about Belgian syrups, some of the additional ingredients like for example date syrup contain proteins and other substances that will promote mailard reactions when heated with sugar, sometimes with a lowered pH as well to promote those reactions. All of this only happens when heated for a certain minimum time and it is quite a science on it's own to dial in the ingredients and temperature/heating time to get the desired product. But in any case, heating it up is crucial, wether short time and high heat or low heat but long time is debatable.

 

[FlyDoctor]

@FlyDoctor going off of what Miraculix said, you need to blend the simple invert and the blackstrap together and then heat until it breaks (boils) about 10-20 minutes.

It still is really simple, but that period of heating is definitely necessary to develop the flavors.

Thank you cyber and Miraculix - this was the detail I needed.

So mix the two together, nest to a boil for the break, them good!

So my fullers won't be as designed.... it hopefully still not horrible.

Thanks!!

 

[jturman35]

Interesting enough I have thought of using a combination of Nottingham/US05 in my AMERICAN Brown Ale which comes across more English than a Hoppy Brown.

I thought about mixing the yeast but ended up chickening out.

 

[jcav]

Late to the conversation but Styrian Goldings hops can give an orange marmalade aroma and taste, but it is not in your face and more subdued.

John

 

[TheMadKing]

This thread sucks

I came here to ask a question about marmalade flavors, got sucked in, now I'm reading the shut up about Barclay Perkins blog, making invert sugar #2 tomorrow, and I bought 5 cubitainers for cask conditioning a strong bitter that I'm brewing Saturday... What have you guys done

 

[Yorkshire lad]

Well, seeing as you asked, I bought the CAMRA's (Campaign for real ale) "Brew your own British Ale" book by Graham Wheeler. And gave a shot at the over 100 recipes therein. Been happy so far. Cheers.

 

[Franktalk]

Well, seeing as you asked, I bought the CAMRA's (Campaign for real ale) "Brew your own British Ale" book by Graham Wheeler. And gave a shot at the over 100 recipes therein. Been happy so far. Cheers.

I bought a copy about a year ago, and every single one I have brewed has been excellent. The key to success with this book is to match the yeast to the recipe.

 

[kmarkstevens]

This thread sucks

I came here to ask a question about marmalade flavors, got sucked in, now I'm reading the shut up about Barclay Perkins blog, making invert sugar #2 tomorrow, and I bought 5 cubitainers for cask conditioning a strong bitter that I'm brewing Saturday... What have you guys done

Bwahahahahaha, Shut Up may occupy you for years. I love that site and have found many a great session beer recipe (plus tons of others) there. I'd also recommend you ask for a birthday beer recipe, my kidlet got that for my birthday and Ron dug back to 1925 to find an interesting session beer for me.

Please report back on the cubitainers. My first attempt was lack luster. But I have a few more and haven't quite yet.

Check out the "spunding thread" to get sucked further into the obsession....

 

[TheMadKing]

Bwahahahahaha, Shut Up may occupy you for years. I love that site and have found many a great session beer recipe (plus tons of others) there. I'd also recommend you ask for a birthday beer recipe, my kidlet got that for my birthday and Ron dug back to 1925 to find an interesting session beer for me.

Please report back on the cubitainers. My first attempt was lack luster. But I have a few more and haven't quite yet.

Check out the "spunding thread" to get sucked further into the obsession....

Oh I already spund most of my beers thank you very much!

I’m looking forward to giving all this a shot. I’m brewing a strong bitter on Saturday so we’ll see if all this new info helps or hurts me

 

[TheMadKing]

Here's my strong bitter recipe for saturday - comments welcome

8lbs Golden promise
1 lb amber malt (bairds)
1 lb Crystal 75 (bairds)
0.5 lb brown malt

Mash at 149 for 60 minutes lauter and boil

0.5 lb invert sugar #1

0.9 oz magnum at 60 minutes
1 oz EKG at 10 minutes
1 oz EKG at 5 minutes
0.5 oz EKG dry hop

WY1968 (second generation from a healthy starter)

finished water profile of 92ppm sulfate 34ppm chloride 63ppm calcium everything else 0 (or close to)

Ferment at 67 until complete. Still debating trying the cubitainers as a faux cask or maybe transferring to a cubitainer from a naturally carbonated keg

transfer to keg and add dextrose to 1.5 vols Co2 and spund in the keg

 

[brewbama]

I’d personally back off the Amber and Crystal to .5# each and the Magnum to ~ .75oz. But that’s just me.

Go for it and see what you think.

 

[TheMadKing]

I’d personally back off the Amber and Crystal to .5# each and the Magnum to ~ .75oz. But that’s just me.

Go for it and see what you think.

Thanks! I actually considered that - unfortunately I was shortsighted and had my homebrew shop put all the specialty grains into a single bag so they are mixed up. I could cut them all in half and just to .5 amber, .5 crystal, and .25 brown by only using half the bag.

I also have some invert sugar #3 that I could use as well

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks! I actually considered that - unfortunately I was shortsighted and had my homebrew shop put all the specialty grains into a single bag so they are mixed up. I could cut them all in half and just to .5 amber, .5 crystal, and .25 brown by only using half the bag.

I also have some invert sugar #3 that I could use as well

This is what I would have suggested anyway, cut everything in half, except the base malt and the sugar

 

[TheMadKing]

I’d personally back off the Amber and Crystal to .5# each and the Magnum to ~ .75oz. But that’s just me.

Go for it and see what you think.

This is what I would have suggested anyway, cut everything in half, except the base malt and the sugar

Ok so I'm cutting the specialty grains in half. I increased the Invert sugar to 1lb and reduced the magnum to 0.75oz so I'm now at

78% golden promise
4.8% amber
4.8% Crystal 75
2.5 % Brown
9.8% invert sugar #1

OG 1.056
IBU 43
SRM 10.1 (unless I switch to Invert #3 which raises color to 13.8)

 

[Miraculix]

Ok so I'm cutting the specialty grains in half. I increased the Invert sugar to 1lb and reduced the magnum to 0.75oz so I'm now at

78% golden promise
4.8% amber
4.8% Crystal 75
2.5 % Brown
9.8% invert sugar #1

OG 1.056
IBU 43
SRM 10.1 (unless I switch to Invert #3 which raises color to 13.8)

Sounds good to me!

 

[cyberbackpacker]

These guys echoed my thoughts... the newest iteration I think will make you very happy!

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

 

[ba-brewer]

I don't recall the percentage but the first time I used amber malt but it added a fairly strong roasty flavor. From the description I thought it would act more like abbey/aromatic/biscuit and just add toasted biscuit flavor. The brown malt adds roastiness as well so combined with the amber malt it could over power the cleaner flavor of the golden promise.

Seems the recipe could be simplified by the use of a something like the crisp Gleneagles Maris Otter pale ale malt instead of the golden promise, amber and brown malts.

A touch of black or chocolate malt for color will give some roastiness if that was what you were after with the brown malt.

 

[kmarkstevens]

TheMadKing, personal preference. I've decided after multiple tests and batches that Brown Malt pretty much turns decent beers into something distracting and almost undrinkable. The roastiness just doesn't work for me. Again, personal preference but you might want to do a taste comparison sometime to see if it's a positive or negative to your recipes and what you like to drink.

 

[TheMadKing]

TheMadKing, personal preference. I've decided after multiple tests and batches that Brown Malt pretty much turns decent beers into something distracting and almost undrinkable. The roastiness just doesn't work for me. Again, personal preference but you might want to do a taste comparison sometime to see if it's a positive or negative to your recipes and what you like to drink.

Thanks for the feedback but I have done just that and I like the flavor and use it in all my porters and stouts

The basis for this recipe was taken from an NHC gold medal winning strong bitter so I'm hoping that it and the amber add a nice biscuit/dryness without being able to taste the roast significantly

 

[Miraculix]

TheMadKing, personal preference. I've decided after multiple tests and batches that Brown Malt pretty much turns decent beers into something distracting and almost undrinkable. The roastiness just doesn't work for me. Again, personal preference but you might want to do a taste comparison sometime to see if it's a positive or negative to your recipes and what you like to drink.

I agree 100%.

I made a test beer with ten percent brown malt plus pale base, and it was just undrinkable. However, after there months it started to get decent and after half a year it was really good.

Don't know why, but that's how it went.

I somehow suspect that there are big differences regarding this bad taste that needs to age out, from maltster to maltster. Unfortunately, I don't remember which one I used....