English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[Jako]

Sounds good. I never brewed with victory and I do not like chocolate malt that much. But I like chocolate spelt. That should do the job as well. What adds the victory to the taste? I really do not know this malt at all.

it gives it a nutty malt flavor. i bought chocolate malt the second time i made this and not the pale chocolate malt. i turned out okay not great. i have looked for the past two hours. i cant believe i lost my original notes.

 

[Miraculix]

Sarah Hughes Dark Ruby Mild is the most common mild with ruby in the name, but as a throwback to the 6% Victorian milds it's nothing like the mid-20th-century versions. As I say, festivals are probably your best bet outside the Black Country, Olympia always has quite a few.



Or indeed a pale mild. But the kitchen sink approach was also followed in Britain - look at Lees Best Mild between 1950-63. Started out as 82% pale, 12% sugar and a few bits of crystal & black, soon became 65% pale, 20% sugar and mix of black/brown/chocolate/crystal/oats, then from 1957 it was 55% pale, 26% sugar, 7% brown, 5% maize, 3% lactose, 2% flaked oats, 2% enzymic, with random excursions into mild malt.

So the kitchen sink approach does have some evidence in the UK, even if it was for Best Mild rather than ordinary. That post-1957 recipe looks pretty ordinary though!



It needs draught mild to be available, so it's pretty much died out. Maybe in the Midlands. From what I can work out it has its origins in people mixing draught with bottled brown ale, as people were so worried about draught mild being full of slops.

It was from one of those manual pumping stations... I guess that's considered cask?

I remember it having an abv above average mild, so it might have been the one you suggested or it also could have been rudgate ruby mild.

 

[Miraculix]

your notes!luck finding your Good

it gives it a nutty malt flavor. i bought chocolate malt the second time i made this and not the pale chocolate malt. i turned out okay not great. i have looked for the past two hours. i cant believe i lost my original notes.

Try chocolate spelt or wheat next time, I'll bet it will do a better job than chocolate malt in this case. Never tried pale chocolate malt, so I cannot compare. Good luck finding your notes!

 

[MSK_Chess]

Most of the WL and Wyeast strains seem to have come from yeast that were harvested in the 1990s by homebrewers, then passed around the homebrew community until ending up in a bank, so there's plenty of opportunity for strains to get mislabelled and mutate. It looks like both 002 and 1968 are highly related to Whitbread B, but that doesn't fit the official narrative of the Fuller yeast history. But that seems to be pretty common - for instance 1469 West Yorkshire and WLP022 Essex look like they share the same source, which doesn't fit any of the official histories either.

You might want to give that ESB another go with WLP041, see how you get on.

Yes I used WLP028 Edinburgh almost exclusively for my Pale Ales and Stouts and Porters, I just love its clean profile without subduing the hops, it lets both hops and malt really shine. The Imperial version (Tartan) is far superior to the White Labs product in my experience and I've used WLP028 a lot. Even in 1060 beers it has great attenuation and mostly it finished out in around 4 days at between 18C-20C.

 

[Jako]

your notes!luck finding your Good
Try chocolate spelt or wheat next time, I'll bet it will do a better job than chocolate malt in this case. Never tried pale chocolate malt, so I cannot compare. Good luck finding your notes!

no luck, i am at the point of making things up in my head to solve the mystery... like i bet i just changed my recipe my LHBS who knows. it looks right in my app i just cant confirm lol.

thanks for the advice i might try it next time to see how it taste.

 

[bwible]

Sounds good. I never brewed with victory and I do not like chocolate malt that much. But I like chocolate spelt. That should do the job as well. What adds the victory to the taste? I really do not know this malt at all.

I believe this is a proprietary malt trademarked by Briess. It’s a type of biscuit malt so if you didn’t have Victory malt you could substitute biscuit malt.

Here’s their data sheet:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_VictoryMalt.pdf

- With an aroma of baking bread, Victory® Malt is well suited for Nut Brown Ales & other dark beers.
- Its clean flavor makes it well suited for ales and lagers alike.
- Use in small amounts to add complexity and warm color to lighter colored ales and lagers.
- Produced in the U.S.A. from AMBA/BMBRI recommended 2-Row malting varieties.

 

[bwible]

Or indeed a pale mild
.

I am confused by the term pale mild. I am in the U.S. where these beers mostly do not exist so I do not have access to any to go try.

What makes a pale mild? How would a pale mild be anything different from an ordinary bitter? Or one of the Golden Ales or Summer Ales?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Don't worry, not many Brits would recognise a pale mild, it's pretty much extinct here - or at least has been merged into ordinary bitter by the general collapse in British ABVs. So whilst mild used to mean an unaged beer (often of 7+%) in the 19th century, by the 20th century it had come to mean any beer that was less bitter than a bitter. So I guess a pale mild would be typically 3-4% and 15-20 IBU - you can see how it got subsumed into ordinary bitter. You often had breweries offering two milds, a dark ordinary and a pale Best Mild, or vice versa.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've never had the chance to sample English ales, if someone could post a short list of some commercial examples I can seek out and perhaps link to some recipes I could try brewing myself, that would be much appreciated. Very curious, just don't know where to begin.

 

[bwible]

I've never had the chance to sample English ales, if someone could post a short list of some commercial examples I can seek out and perhaps link to some recipes I could try brewing myself, that would be much appreciated. Very curious, just don't know where to begin.

Fuller’s London Pride is one that should be widely available in the U.S., usually gets here in great shape, and imho is a great place to start. Bass Ale is also widely available. For pale ales. Boddington’s is not hard to find, but its usually in nitro cans here. Then you have an array of porters, stouts, and barleywines if you are so inclined. Anything from Samuel Smith, there’s Newcastle Brown Ale, Young’s Old Nick is a great barleywine, many others.

Just what we can get here.

Ask what’s available where you get your beer and they will probably steer you in the right direction. Or find a good beer bar near you with a nice selection and if you get lucky they might even have something on draft.

 

[catdaddy66]

I believe this is a proprietary malt trademarked by Briess. It’s a type of biscuit malt so if you didn’t have Victory malt you could substitute biscuit malt.

Here’s their data sheet:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_VictoryMalt.pdf

- With an aroma of baking bread, Victory® Malt is well suited for Nut Brown Ales & other dark beers.
- Its clean flavor makes it well suited for ales and lagers alike.
- Use in small amounts to add complexity and warm color to lighter colored ales and lagers.
- Produced in the U.S.A. from AMBA/BMBRI recommended 2-Row malting varieties.

I made an American pale ale a couple of years ago that used a pound of victory. It was the best beer I made that year! Loved the nutty quality. I will try it again this year around Father's day.

 

[Miraculix]

I believe this is a proprietary malt trademarked by Briess. It’s a type of biscuit malt so if you didn’t have Victory malt you could substitute biscuit malt.

Here’s their data sheet:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_VictoryMalt.pdf

- With an aroma of baking bread, Victory® Malt is well suited for Nut Brown Ales & other dark beers.
- Its clean flavor makes it well suited for ales and lagers alike.
- Use in small amounts to add complexity and warm color to lighter colored ales and lagers.
- Produced in the U.S.A. from AMBA/BMBRI recommended 2-Row malting varieties.

Thanks, haven't used biscuit either. By the sounds of it, it should go well in a nut brown.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've never had the chance to sample English ales, if someone could post a short list of some commercial examples I can seek out

If anyone knows what British beer is available around Chicago, it will be @Gadjobrinus .

The big problem is that British styles make most sense when fresh out of a cask. Conversely they are never worse than when out of a tired cask through dirty lines. Even when the cellarman has done his job to perfection, the trad brown beers like Bass or Pedigree can go from "Amazing - I want its babies" to "Mmm - nice pint" in a few hours, then two days later down to "Alright I suppose" and a few days later "I would rather make babies with Harvey Weinstein than drink this".

So cellarmanship and throughput are critical to good cask - and that combination is hard enough to find in the UK, let alone overseas (but far from non-existent AIUI). For that reasons, festivals are probably the best place to try cask - I'd guess there's probably something like that in a city the size of Chicago? I saw someone recently mention an upcoming cask festival at Yards in Philly?

So to some extent, I'd emphasise the freshness rather than a beer's passport, so it may well be that you're best experience Stateside may come from an OK-ish US version served really fresh, rather than a terrific British beer served tired. I'd guess in Chicago the obvious example of that would be Goose Island Honkers - I've never had it fresh (why listen to the tribute act when the original is all around?) but I believe it's a passable effort and at least you should be able to get it fresh. There's a very out of date list here of bars serving cask in IL that may be of some use, last updated in 2013 by the look of it.

So if you can't get cask - what's the best option? Bottle definitely - ideally bottle-conditioned, but to be honest the bottle-conditioned beers for the mass market can be a bit dull, they tend to be the regional brewers making a point to CAMRA by having a token SKU that ticks the box. Worthington White Shield, Morland Hen's Tooth, Shepherd Neame 1698, Fuller's 1845 and Adnam's minicasks of Broadside and their bitter are the usual ones you see in British supermarkets.

Keg generally doesn't suit classic bitters particularly well, they generally end up too cold to release their flavours and excess carbonation knocks the balance out of whack. The same applies to can only more so, as the traditional bitters that are canned in 440ml by the majors tend to be the bottom of the range ones made down to a price, they're the British equivalent of BMC lager. Obviously the modern beer movement has changed perceptions of cans, so that now even breweries that care like Harveys do (330ml) cans, but in general I'd avoid 440ml cans from the breweries big enough to handle the hassle of export.

So what to get? Well obviously bitter is the headline beer of British brewing, but I'd avoid the ordinary bitters below 4% - they tend to have less to them so you'll wonder why you paid import prices for them, they're intended as BMC equivalents for people to have a few pints on a school night and stay capable the next morning and the lack of character means they don't seem to cope well with any format other than fresh cask. So start with best bitters in the 4-4.5% range.

The obvious starting place would be Timothy Taylor Landlord and Harvey's Best - I probably prefer TT Boltmaker but Landlord is the one you usually see. Landlord is a notoriously fussy beer on cask and even in bottle it seems to have bad moments - I think it's one of those beers that is so iconic that it's often bought by retailers who don't know how to look after it. But it's fabulous when on form.

I'd put the likes of London Pride in the second rung, along with eg Black Sheep - I wouldn't go to the wall for either, but I'll happily drink them in bottle. They're a good example of the regional differences within the UK - northern beers tend to be more bitter, dry and minerally, southern beers are sweeter and less bitter. Tourists tend to visit the south, so they think all bitters are like Hobgoblin, which I find undrinkably sweet.

For instance, Manchester has tradition of dry golden ales exemplified by Boddington's, but Boddies was one of the first victims of the takeovers of the late 20th century and is now part of ABInbev, it might not have suffered quite as much as the transition from Budvar to Budweiser, but not far off. I'm not sure if the US version is brewed Stateside? If it's anything like as bad as the reports of US-brewed Bass (also owned by ABI) then I'd avoid.

But you can regard something like Marble Bitter as a modern Boddies, and the likes of Lees MPA, Marble Pint (or Metric when in 500ml cans, for legal reasons) and Track Sonoma as interpretations with more obvious use of US hops. I imagine they won't be so easy to find, but they are good examples of how bitter is evolving in one region.

ESB/strong bitter is one of those things that is far less common in its homeland than USians seem to think, it's really confined to Fuller's and Young's in London. If other brewers make a strongish beer with British hops, it tends to get marketed as an old ale or English IPA, but given that beer over 4.5% is rare in pubs outside city centres, it's really not much of a thing. At festivals, a bit, but not in pubs.

As already mentioned in this thread, mild is almost extinct outside the West Midlands, you might find Banks or Thwaites in cans but that's about it.

There's lots of good porters around, I guess Fuller's will be the one that's easiest for you to find, it's fantastic on cask but I've not had it in bottle. Titanic Plum Porter divides geek opinion somewhat, but is a crowd favourite.

Classic milk stout is also almost extinct having been hugely popular in the 1950s - Mackeson was the granddaddy of the category but ABI have now reduced it down to 2.8% in the UK for tax reasons. An XXX export version has been brewed in the US, supposedly the Mackeson brewed in Trinidad is the best of the bunch. Bristol Beer Bactory arguably now make the best milk stout in the UK.

Newcastle Brown Ale is a bit like Orval, in the sense that it's an oddity that doesn't much relate to any modern beer (to be clear - it's not remotely Bretty). It doesn't help that Heineken have moved production to the Netherlands, and supposedly are going to make it at Lagunitas. It's kinda hard to recommend it as representing anything in the modern scene. Originally it was "inspired" by Double Maxim by Vaux, which has been recreated by a new brewery called Maxim, which would be a better option if you can find it.

Mann's is a similar oddity - despite being lumped together with Newky Brown as a "brown ale" it is perhaps best regarded as an attempt to get round Mackeson's patents on milk stout, it's dark, weak and sweetish. I imagine its demographic is ageing fast and it won't be with us much longer. Martyn Cornell has a good rant about English brown ale here.

Right, well that will give you a start....

 

[kmarkstevens]

@Northern_Brewer

 

[McKnuckle]

And what about Sam Smith? We get decent distribution of that in the US, at least on the east coast. Taddy porter, Winter Warmer (old ale), Imperial Stout, all have the distinctive SS mineral and yeast ester qualities. I’m trying to recall if I’ve ever seen their pale ales here. I’ve actually had their lager too, although it obviously is not a classic English beer. We get their Nut Brown Ale too which is much better than Newcastle to my tastebuds.

 

[user 246304]

And what about Sam Smith? We get decent distribution of that in the US, at least on the east coast. Taddy porter, Winter Warmer (old ale), Imperial Stout, all have the distinctive SS mineral and yeast eater qualities. I’m trying to recall if I’ve ever seen their pale ales here. I’ve actually had their lager too, although it obviously is not a classic English beer. We get their Nut Brown Ale too which is much better than Newcastle to my tastebuds.

I've had their Pale and their India, and I enjoy them both very much. I would like just a tad more hop character in the India, but nothing all that aggressive, just a bit more.

Edit: NB, rather than quote your post let me just say I could give a dozen "likes." As always a massive bit of learning in a few lines.

 

[Miraculix]

And what about Sam Smith? We get decent distribution of that in the US, at least on the east coast. Taddy porter, Winter Warmer (old ale), Imperial Stout, all have the distinctive SS mineral and yeast eater qualities. I’m trying to recall if I’ve ever seen their pale ales here. I’ve actually had their lager too, although it obviously is not a classic English beer. We get their Nut Brown Ale too which is much better than Newcastle to my tastebuds.

I really really really like their ipa. It's probably my favorite commercial ipa I've had so far. I also really really like their nut brown, it is really good.

 

[EnglishAndy]

As I say, festivals are probably your best bet outside the Black Country, Olympia always has quite a few.

If it's a CAMRA festival then you'll need to get there early if SH is on because my fellow members seem to treat it as a hallowed dark nectar and it never seems to last beyond the first day. Odd really because its reach has extended considerably since the 90s. It's a regular guest at a pub I visit in Nottingham and I've even seen it as far away as the Mitre at London's Chancery Lane.

And what about Sam Smith? We get decent distribution of that in the US, at least on the east coast. Taddy porter, Winter Warmer (old ale), Imperial Stout, all have the distinctive SS mineral and yeast eater qualities. I’m trying to recall if I’ve ever seen their pale ales here. I’ve actually had their lager too, although it obviously is not a classic English beer. We get their Nut Brown Ale too which is much better than Newcastle to my tastebuds.

Sam Smith is an oddball brewery. I used to live a couple of miles from the Tadcaster brewery but I was too young to be drinking the beer back in the 70s.

They're odd in that they're a Yorkshire brewer that owns a chain of pubs in prime central London locations and still manage to sell the beer at 50-60% of the price you'll pay next door in a Fullers pub. They do this by having total control of what they sell in the pub. Everything, and I mean everything in a Sam Smith pub is a Sam Smith product. Right down to the crisps (you call them chips) and nuts. If you're ever in London seek out the Princess Louise for one of the last remaining examples of how pubs used to look.

I find that the beer itself has a common flavour running through it. You either like it or you don't. Some of my friends don't like it. I definitely do. It's a sort of mild 'bite' that I associate with the Yorkshire bitters I grew up with. It might be the water or the yeast. Probably both.

 

[McKnuckle]

This pic was taken at the King’s Arms, a Sam Smith pub in York alongside the River Ouse. I think it was a bitter of some kind. Mmmm

 

[Miraculix]

If it's a CAMRA festival then you'll need to get there early if SH is on because my fellow members seem to treat it as a hallowed dark nectar and it never seems to last beyond the first day. Odd really because its reach has extended considerably since the 90s. It's a regular guest at a pub I visit in Nottingham and I've even seen it as far away as the Mitre at London's Chancery Lane.


Sam Smith is an oddball brewery. I used to live a couple of miles from the Tadcaster brewery but I was too young to be drinking the beer back in the 70s.

They're odd in that they're a Yorkshire brewer that owns a chain of pubs in prime central London locations and still manage to sell the beer at 50-60% of the price you'll pay next door in a Fullers pub. They do this by having total control of what they sell in the pub. Everything, and I mean everything in a Sam Smith pub is a Sam Smith product. Right down to the crisps (you call them chips) and nuts. If you're ever in London seek out the Princess Louise for one of the last remaining examples of how pubs used to look.

I find that the beer itself has a common flavour running through it. You either like it or you don't. Some of my friends don't like it. I definitely do. It's a sort of mild 'bite' that I associate with the Yorkshire bitters I grew up with. It might be the water or the yeast. Probably both.

I didn't know they run pubs! Great news, going to be I London this weekend anyway

Let's see if I can find the pubs online...

 

[Hanglow]

http://www.jamesgretton.co.uk/samuelsmiths/ There you go, not sure if it's entirely correct.


Their Nut Brown ale is one I always point out for people who want to know what diacetyl tastes like in beer . Most of their ales have a fair amount

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yep, when I was talking about mild I meant the 20th century watery stuff, not the Victorian milds like Sarah Hughes. Most of the festivals I go to seem to have SH on, but that means that it's not the treat that it is for those in that London so they don't go too crazy for it. It's frustrating, there does seem to be a small move back towards dark beers, but you can't blame publicans for not stocking it until they are confident of emptying a full cask in reasonable time, even if it's just a pin.

I almost mentioned Sam Smith, but they are an oddball. Imagine if all you saw of ABInBev was Bourbon County Stout, you'd think of them as a brewer of amazing stouts and not understand all the online hate from people living in the land of Bud and Stella. Sam Smiths is a bit like that - their US importer has great PR and you only see their premium bottled products and don't see their pretty average draught products. And of course you guys buy into the whole history thing, which we maybe get a bit blazé about - heck, we have beer in our supermarkets called 1698 after the foundation date of the company (and brewing on or near the Sheps site probably goes back to monastic times, they're arguably a more authentic abbey brewer than many of the Belgians).

Conversely in the UK a traditional brewer is judged primarily on the quality of their cask bitter, and Sam Smiths ignore the "rules" by only having one (served from wooden kilderkins) that's a bit meh and a whole load of own-brand lagers (to be fair at one time they made some of the best UK lager, but have rather stood still whilst the market has moved on). And there's probably a bit of snobbery about the low prices, which I suspect is more to do with having lots of freeholds that they've owned for decades and are fully written off, than their own-brand nuts. They could really do with making a Landlord equivalent, a little stronger and without Humphrey's penny-pinching, even if it was just as an occasional special, it would do their reputation here a world of good.

So yes, the bottles you see are good beers, but they are oddities that nobody really drinks here. As I should have said more clearly in the original post, anything more than 4.5% is rare on cask outside city centres, although it's now pretty common to have something hoppy at 5-6% on keg. So the likes of 6% Winter Welcome and 7% Imperial Stout just aren't very representative of what Brits drink.

Yes, the pubs are famous, if only for some of the eccentric rules that Humphrey imposes, it's very much a company moulded in the image of one man. He also annoyed a lot of people when the main bridge in Tadcaster was damaged by floods, people had to make a 10-mile trip the long way round because he wouldn't let them use his land for a temporary bridge, and there's been various rumours, rapidly jumped on by lawyers, about their treatment of their tenants.

But they have some glorious pubs - if you're in London then the ones on Holborn get a lot of attention - the Princess Louise near Holborn tube and the Victorian fake-medieval glory of the Cittie of York near Chancery Lane tube, plus the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet St.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I find that the beer itself has a common flavour running through it. You either like it or you don't. Some of my friends don't like it. I definitely do. It's a sort of mild 'bite' that I associate with the Yorkshire bitters I grew up with. It might be the water or the yeast. Probably both.

There's not definitive proof, but the internet often links Sam Smiths yeast to the WLP037 vault strain, which is a POF+ saison type that homebrewers struggle with because of its huge phenolics. I've got some but not used it yet - suffice to say that Wiper & True are making some well-regarded saisons with it. I must admit I've not had OBB since WLP037 was sequenced, it would be interesting to try it with that in mind.

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm totally on board with your assessment, @Northern_Brewer. As a brewer, beer drinker, and far-too-infrequent world traveler, I tend to be fascinated by everything that is NOT American. I enjoy Cascade and Mosaic hops, but generally yawn at the IPA craze.

I do love English beers and brewing history. I've taken a "beer trip" to England and visited Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Burton, and London breweries and other landmarks, plus the GBBF. Cask beer is to die for and we almost literally have none of that here in the US.

So for a poor sod like me, Sam's in the bottle is among the best indulgences available. And it is noted indeed that in England, their pubs don't serve it on cask. That was disappointing, but it didn't dull my overall enthusiasm for the flavor of their product.

I tried brewing once with WLP037 and it was terrible. I've had great luck with WY1469 though. Obviously we can brew excellent, authentic beers anywhere with the right water treatment and fermentation techniques, the full cask experience notwithstanding unfortunately.

 

[HTH1975]

Oddly enough, I live about 25 minutes from the Sam Smiths brewery in Tadcaster and I don’t see it in any pubs round here.

 

[EnglishAndy]

Oddly enough, I live about 25 minutes from the Sam Smiths brewery in Tadcaster and I don’t see it in any pubs round here.

If you're ever passing through Follifoot it's worth stopping off for a pint at the Harewood Arms.

 

[Miraculix]

I just bought a bottle ofnut brown, they ran out of the ipa

Sierra Nevada pale instead and a bottle of marstons 61 deep ale, never had it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Oddly enough, I live about 25 minutes from the Sam Smiths brewery in Tadcaster and I don’t see it in any pubs round here.

They don't really deal with the free trade - the above map lists only the White Bear in York, but 20+ tied houses. They do pop up in random places - last time I was at Tebay services on the M6 they had pretty much a full set of bottles, including Stingo and the fruit beers (which are better than they should be).

The same could be said for 61 Deep - the reference is to the depth of the "special" Burton aquifer, but the beer got something like a bronze in the World Beer Awards. Not had it in bottle, but surprisingly nice on cask.

 

[HTH1975]

They don't really deal with the free trade - the above map lists only the White Bear in York, but 20+ tied houses. They do pop up in random places - last time I was at Tebay services on the M6 they had pretty much a full set of bottles, including Stingo and the fruit beers (which are better than they should be).

The same could be said for 61 Deep - the reference is to the depth of the "special" Burton aquifer, but the beer got something like a bronze in the World Beer Awards. Not had it in bottle, but surprisingly nice on cask.

I’m pretty sure that Sam Smiths don’t brew those fruit beers themselves.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

They brew the core beer at Melbourn Bros' All Saints Brewery in Stamford, which they bought in 1974. Then they truck it up the A1 for fruiting and bottling in Taddy.