English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[HM-2]

The only dry yeasts with properly equivalent strains that I know of are Verdant and US-05, and from those I believe only Verdant is similar to its liquid yeasts. Which yeasts did you compare?

There are plenty of dry Chico equivalents- WHC LAX is probably my most used yeast- that perform identically to it or 001/Flagship/1056. WHC Bond (which is a (dry) Whitbread Dry derivative like WLP007) is utterly indistinguishable IME (it was discussed briefly in another thread I think, or maybe a couple of pages back in this one). Ditto some of the dry Weihenstephaner derived strains (though WHC Banana Split has been rubbish both times I've used it), and some of the dry German lager ones I've used. Oh, and Koln before it went the way of the dodo was way better than WLP029.

 

[Colindo]

@HM-2 Yeah, in some respect I was generalising too much. All the newer dry yeasts such as WLP066 Dry and WLP860 Dry are of course exactly the same strains as liquid. Same for the Fermentis W68, which is the same as WY3068. Would love to see some comparisons there between liquid and dry, but haven't found any yet.

When you get to the older strains however, you'll find that the dry yeasts behave quite differently from those "equivalent" liquid yeast. Same for the difference between White Labs and Wyeast, because each manufacturer collected the yeasts in different places. My understanding is that for example White Labs collected in breweries, where strains had diverged, whereas Wyeast and all the other manufacturers like Imperial, Fermentum, Escarpment etc take their yeasts from NCYC and similar collections, so they behave the same.

When you look at S-04 and all the same dry strains from other manufacturers, they are nowhere near what WLP007 tastes like or behaves like physically. US-05 attenuates further than WLP001. Lallemand Köln was, from what I know, never an equivalent of WLP029. I haven't used much of any bottom-fermenting yeast strains, so can't comment on those.

 

[HM-2]

Lallemand Köln was, from what I know, never an equivalent of WLP029. I haven't used much of any bottom-fermenting yeast strains, so can't comment on those.

Köln is top fermenting (as all Kolsch yeasts are) but you're correct, it was never marketed as an equivalent to 029 per se.

 

[hungupdown]

They're not true Goldings, although they do have some Goldings heritage - they were named that way because Goldings came to be used as a generic identifier of quality in the same way that a lot of sparkling wine in the New World came to be called "champagne", even Fuggle was originally sold as Fuggle's Golding and Styrian Golding is a more recent example.

And East Kent is just a geographical identifier, so you could get East Kent WGV if they were grown east of the M20 motorway, although they would have a very different profile to true East Kent Goldings (which is a legally protected designation for certain Goldings clones grown east of the motorway, and that official list does not include WGV).

WGV really came to prominence during the big panic over verticillium wilt after WWII, as it is somewhat tolerant of wilt and has a reasonably English flavour (and was the pet hop of Whitbread, one of the biggest brewery groups at the time). So you find it in a lot of commercial recipes at that time, but it's maybe not what you would choose if you were prepared to pay the small premium for true Goldings.

I understand that.
But they usually seem close. And I buy some WGV, when I see it on special offer.

 

[Fr_Marc]

Some of Harvey's bottled beer has their yeast in as well.
This is the easiest way to transfer it.

And that is exactly what I did. I bought two bottles of Harvey‘s Imperial Stout and brought the yeast sediment home in my sterilized „shampoo flasks“. Made a small starter with it, built it up over a couple of days and - voilà - was able to harvest approx. a pint of beautiful yeast slurry.

I am planning to brew a golden ale type of beer with it next week and then try my hand on a Sussex Best clone-ish bitter on the yeast cake.

 

[DuncB]

Not sure why you transferred to the Shampoo flasks when the beer with yeast in a bottle was already in a bottle.
Something to do with bottle size on the airplane in your carry on?

 

[Fr_Marc]

Exactly. I was travelling with cabin luggage only. Only 100mil bottles of liquid were allowed. So I brought some small bottles filled with StarSan to the UK and returned with the yeast I was after.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Exactly. I was travelling with cabin luggage only. Only 100mil bottles of liquid were allowed. So I brought some small bottles filled with StarSan to the UK and returned with the yeast I was after.

That's some dedication. How did the yeast handle the pressure changes?

 

[Halfakneecap]

Exactly. I was travelling with cabin luggage only. Only 100mil bottles of liquid were allowed. So I brought some small bottles filled with StarSan to the UK and returned with the yeast I was after.

Kind of chuckling imagining one of those Airport Security shows with you trying to explain that its just yeast haha

 

[Miraculix]

Kind of chuckling imagining one of those Airport Security shows with you trying to explain that its just yeast haha

You mean, it is a special hair conditioner for really dry and thirsty hair. It is the mother of a beer shampoo.

 

[Fr_Marc]

That's some dedication. How did the yeast handle the pressure changes?

I have not brewed with it yet. Yeast propagation worked like a treat though. We will see how it goes.

 

[Miraculix]

Im not OP but 1469 is gorgeous. Stonefruit esters but not too crazy. The best top cropping yeast that ever was. Ive used it for months on end with top cropped yeast. Awesome

I've never thought about marrying a yeast strain, but if i did, 1469 would probably be the one

I also love WY1469. When I visited Thornbridge brewery earlier this year they danced around the question of where their cask ale strain was from, but from the things they said I'm quite sure they get it from Timothy Taylor. They said the yeast gets tired quickly in the CCV and they cannot use more than 10 propagations before getting a new batch from the NCYC.

@Miraculix Taste-wise I tend to get some pear, similar to EKG. But with much more fruity complexity where EKG is earthy. When I used 1469 with EKG it turned out somewhat one-dimensional, but when combined with Savinjski Goldings it really shines.

Ordered some! I'll be brewing something along the lines of 5% crystal, 10% sugar, rest mo. Looking forward to it!

 

[Miraculix]

Regarding whc yeasts, what's the general consensus? Are they legit, do they produce their own strains, or do they repack other dry yeasts like mj does? I've ordered bond and mango madness. Bond sounds awfully like s04. I like s04, so I took the shot. If it turns out to be s04 in a different pack, I'm still ok. Mango madness doesn't sound like anything I know of. This elevated temp thing sounds like a kveik, but it's not supposed to be one? Let's see.

 

[Colindo]

Regarding whc yeasts, what's the general consensus? Are they legit, do they produce their own strains, or do they repack other dry yeasts like mj does? I've ordered bond and mango madness. Bond sounds awfully like s04. I like s04, so I took the shot. If it turns out to be s04 in a different pack, I'm still ok. Mango madness doesn't sound like anything I know of. This elevated temp thing sounds like a kveik, but it's not supposed to be one? Let's see.

They have a few original ones. Bond is definitely an S-04 clone, though.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

They have a few original ones. Bond is definitely an S-04 clone, though.

Clone or repack?

 

[Colindo]

Clone or repack?

Since they have their own strains it is plausible to assume they also propagate common strains themselves.

 

[HM-2]

They have a few original ones. Bond is definitely an S-04 clone, though.

Bond is dry WLP007. Hence the name. So Whitbread Dry "B"

 

[Colindo]

Bond is dry WLP007. Hence the name.

I really wouldn't interpret too much into a name. By the way, it was renamed to "British Pub Ale" recently.

 

[HM-2]

I really wouldn't interpret too much into a name. By the way, it was renamed to "British Pub Ale" recently.

WHC have confirmed Whitbread Dry as the origin.
IIRC, there's some debate as to whether S-04 is actually a Whitbread derivative, though it was often claimed to be one.

 

[HM-2]

Mango madness doesn't sound like anything I know of. This elevated temp thing sounds like a kveik, but it's not supposed to be one? Let's see.

Mango Madness is nothing like any yeast I've ever used. It's 100% not kveik or kveik adjacent, no yoghurt tang or kveikiness, although they draw comparisons with Ebbgarden it doesn't have either the funk or the bitterness accentuating characteristics IME, though I will caveat that I have so far only used it in pale ales.

WHC now do several thermo tolerant yeasts and unique strains. High Voltage is unlike anything offered by other producers, think WLP001 but at 35°C for 3 days fermentations. Pineapple Passion is also very unique, similar to Verdant but pineapple instead of apricot.

 

[Miraculix]

Mango Madness is nothing like any yeast I've ever used. It's 100% not kveik or kveik adjacent, no yoghurt tang or kveikiness, although they draw comparisons with Ebbgarden it doesn't have either the funk or the bitterness accentuating characteristics IME, though I will caveat that I have so far only used it in pale ales.

WHC now do several thermo tolerant yeasts and unique strains. High Voltage is unlike anything offered by other producers, think WLP001 but at 35°C for 3 days fermentations. Pineapple Passion is also very unique, similar to Verdant but pineapple instead of apricot.

Thanks for the info!

Sounds quite promising tbh. I'm looking forward to using it.

Did you maybe try mango madness without much hop derived flavour to get a better idea of what it itself brings to the table?

 

[Colindo]

WHC have confirmed Whitbread Dry as the origin.
IIRC, there's some debate as to whether S-04 is actually a Whitbread derivative, though it was often claimed to be one.

They also told a British brewer that their Old English yeast, which is obviously a Nottingham clone, would be the Gale's strain derived from Hale brewery in Seattle. So I'm not inclined to believe them even with a direct statement.

High Voltage is supposed to be a Lutra clone.

 

[HM-2]

High Voltage is supposed to be a Lutra clone.

I don't think they, or anyone else, has said HV is a "Lutra clone". They said it's "comparable", but also "comparable" with WLP001, which is very much not Kveik.

Which I suppose is accurate, given its characteristics are pretty much equidistant between the two.

I've done probably 15 brews with High Voltage and can categorically confirm it's not Lutra.

They also told a British brewer that their Old English yeast...would be the Gale's strain derived from Hale brewery in Seattle.

Hales strain is sold as WYeast 1332 correct? Northwest Ale?

I'm not sure on what basis you've deemed Old English to "obviously" be a Nottingham clone. It has similar fermentation characteristics but so do plenty of other English yeasts.

IIRC Notty is a single strain derived from a multi-strain blend used by Boots (yes, the chemists) that Lallemamd acquired. London and Windsor were allegedly isolated from the same blend, and none of their origin information is more than speculative as it was simply not recorded.

 

[HM-2]

Did you maybe try mango madness without much hop derived flavour to get a better idea of what it itself brings to the table?

I mostly tried it there because I was out of Verdant and felt it was the closest thing in my yeast stash to it for a pale ale hopped with UK Cascade and CF184. It made a pretty great beer for a panicked substitution. I'd bought it to do NEIPAs with originally.

During fermentation (warm, will have to check my notes but high 20s IIRC) the aroma was really, really aggressive. Like, overripe mango to the point of being almost nauseating and unpleasant. Thankfully that dissipated fairly quickly and the finished beer retained a hint of stone fruit somewhere between "Verdant fermented on the warmer side" and "Pomona if you ignore the grapefruit".

 

[Miraculix]

I don't think they, or anyone else, has said HV is a "Lutra clone". They said it's "comparable", but also "comparable" with WLP001, which is very much not Kveik.

Which I suppose is accurate, given its characteristics are pretty much equidistant between the two.

I've done probably 15 brews with High Voltage and can categorically confirm it's not Lutra.


Hales strain is sold as WYeast 1332 correct? Northwest Ale?

I'm not sure on what basis you've deemed Old English to "obviously" be a Nottingham clone. It has similar fermentation characteristics but so do plenty of other English yeasts.

IIRC Notty is a single strain derived from a multi-strain blend used by Boots (yes, the chemists) that Lallemamd acquired. London and Windsor were allegedly isolated from the same blend, and none of their origin information is more than speculative as it was simply not recorded.

I'm pretty sensitive to the kveikyness of kveik yeasts. I also perceive lutra as clearly kveiky. So I have the hopes that if mango madness doesn't give me the kveiks, it's not a kveik.

Now that the summer is kicking in in Germany and temperatures get into the direction of 30c during the day, I start to regret a bit that I ordered the 1469 Yorkshire yeast. I might be having a hard time keeping it cool.

What's the highest temperature one can get away with with that one? Anybody has first hand experience?

 

[Colindo]

Now that the summer is kicking in in Germany and temperatures get into the direction of 30c during the day, I start to regret a bit that I ordered the 1469 Yorkshire yeast. I might be having a hard time keeping it cool.

What's the highest temperature one can get away with that one? Anybody has first hand experience?

It's not as sensitive as other strains. 22°C-23°C is still fine. Hopefully your basement can provide.

 

[Miraculix]

It's not as sensitive as other strains. 22°C-23°C is still fine. Hopefully your basement can provide.

That should do, thanks!

 

[beervoid]

Regarding whc yeasts, what's the general consensus? Are they legit, do they produce their own strains, or do they repack other dry yeasts like mj does? I've ordered bond and mango madness. Bond sounds awfully like s04. I like s04, so I took the shot. If it turns out to be s04 in a different pack, I'm still ok. Mango madness doesn't sound like anything I know of. This elevated temp thing sounds like a kveik, but it's not supposed to be one? Let's see.

Please keep us updated, I've ordered it as well, if it's S04 which has very distinct character it should be easy to identify.
I'm hoping it's something else though, there are not enough dry english strains for a nice english ale.

 

[Miraculix]

Please keep us updated, I've ordered it as well, if it's S04 which has very distinct character it should be easy to identify.
I'm hoping it's something else though, there are not enough dry english strains for a nice english ale.

Tbh I don't get any strong character from s04 nowadays at all. It's one of the cleanest yeasts I know of. It used to be different.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Tbh I don't get any strong character from s04 nowadays at all. It's one of the cleanest yeasts I know of. It used to be different.

I started brewing in the early 2000's and started with mostly US05 and S04. I went to liquid yeast for quite a few years. After a few years out of brewing, maybe 5/6 years ago, i read about US05 and peach flavours. I tried it again, and definately noticed peach, cant not notice it.

I never noticed it when i first started brewing. Thought it was just me, but maybe they are changing ?


Not trying to open a can of worms, just an observation