Dry hop creep / Diacetyl in IPA

[Jesse93]

Right, because we all know that gases never mix. Oh wait...

Oils are not gases though.

 

[Vale71]

Oils are not gases though.

Everything turns to gas when it evaporates. I've never seen oils leave a fermenter in liquid form when the fermenter is opened.

 

[Jesse93]

Everything turns to gas when it evaporates. I've never seen oils leave a fermenter in liquid form when the fermenter is opened.

You will need quite high temperatures for that to happen, maybe this is a problem if you ferment at 35 celcius, but should not be a problem at 16 celcius for exsample.

 

[couchsending]

Now,

I did an IPA with the method mentioned above.
Straight out of the fermenter, it was the best beer I have made so far with bright citrusy charachter and aroma.

After 9 days in primary only, and dry hopped at yeast pitch - the beer passed the forced diacetyl test.

I proceeded with bottling straight from the primary using a spigot and wand. 6 days later I tried two of the beers... horrible.
I could not simply pick out any hop flavours, and I went heavy on the mosaic on this one.

What I can confirm is:
* Diacetyl forms due to refermentation in the bottle
* Some oxygen will always be introduced when bottling, I did spot acetaldehyde in the beer
* New yeast are formed and consumes the hop oils
Hop aroma fades due to the three observations above, leaving you with muddeled hop taste.

Conclusion: You can not bottle condition home brewed IPAs with results that is compareable to commercial top range IPAs. You either have to keg and force carbonate the beer and serve from the keg - or bottle using a beergun.

Further more, I have contacted two local breweries to see how they manage packaging.

Sure you can. Have you tried reyeasting when bottle conditioning these beers? Adding yeast that isn’t already tired and covered in alpha acids. You could also krausen the batch which would probably be the best route. There’s a krausening calculator on Brewer’s friend.

 

[Jesse93]

Sure you can. Have you tried reyeasting when bottle conditioning these beers? Adding yeast that isn’t already tired and covered in alpha acids. You could also krausen the batch which would probably be the best route. There’s a krausening calculator on Brewer’s friend.

I have not tried to krausen / add more yeast, but I have read about it but it leaves me with some further questions.

(Before moving on and changing an unknown parameter, I need to know the root cause for fading hop aroma; yeast management or bottling process. Could be both, which is indicated if brewers who keg do not need do krausen.)

Then 1/2 package of dry yeast should be sufficient for 3 gal / 11 l of normal strength beer, and adding the last 1/2 when bottling?

 

[couchsending]

I have not tried to krausen / add more yeast, but I have read about it but it leaves me with some further questions.

(Before moving on and changing an unknown parameter, I need to know the root cause for fading hop aroma; yeast management or bottling process. Could be both, which is indicated if brewers who keg do not need do krausen.)

Then 1/2 package of dry yeast should be sufficient for 3 gal / 11 l of normal strength beer, and adding the last 1/2 when bottling?

Root cause of fading hop aroma is Oxygen pickup. Impossible to avoid if you’re trying to bottle off say a bottling bucket. You’d need at least a keg/beer gun/Co2 I’d think. I don’t ever bottle condition anything that isn’t sour/wild/mixed ferment. When I do I use a beer gun to try to keep everything as O2 free as possible.

1-2g of dry yeast is all that’s necessary for reyeasting 5 gallons of beer for bottling. For 3 gallons I’d probably go .5g.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Wait, why is aeration bad for dry yeast and not liquid? That doesn't make sense to me. Is there a source for this?

 

[Gravitysucks]

Wait, why is aeration bad for dry yeast and not liquid? That doesn't make sense to me. Is there a source for this?

There's a lot of information in this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...on-and-also-does-not-require-aeration.665957/

 

[Jesse93]

Root cause of fading hop aroma is Oxygen pickup. Impossible to avoid if you’re trying to bottle off say a bottling bucket. You’d need at least a keg/beer gun/Co2 I’d think. I don’t ever bottle condition anything that isn’t sour/wild/mixed ferment. When I do I use a beer gun to try to keep everything as O2 free as possible.

1-2g of dry yeast is all that’s necessary for reyeasting 5 gallons of beer for bottling. For 3 gallons I’d probably go .5g.

Thanks for the solid info Couch! [emoji869]

Then I'll better be off doing saisons for example, untill I live in a more spacy place where I can have a keezer.

Cheers [emoji16]

 

[couchsending]

Thanks for the solid info Couch! [emoji869]

Then I'll better be off doing saisons for example, untill I live in a more spacy place where I can have a keezer.

Cheers [emoji16]

You might be able to bottle spund, although I’d use some heavy glass if you’re not 100% sure of your FG. You’d have to bag the hops and add them at say 3 plato before FG, transfer to bottles with 1 plato to go. Without Co2 that might be the best way to mitigate O2 pickup.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Bottle spunding is what I do with good results, however you really need to do a forced fermentation test to avoid bottle bombs.

 

[Jesse93]

Spunding might be a very good idea.
I do have quite a consistent FG with certain strains, if so, could this be as easy as monitor the SG then plug the airlock hole 2-3 p before FG, chill the fermenter then bottle?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Spunding might be a very good idea.
I do have quite a consistent FG with certain strains, if so, could this be as easy as monitor the SG then plug the airlock hole 2-3 p before FG, chill the fermenter then bottle?

That's the basic idea. I will say that the shelf life isn't as good as kegging, although anyone trying to keep IPAs for a while probably doesn't understand IPAs that well.

 

[couchsending]

Spunding might be a very good idea.
I do have quite a consistent FG with certain strains, if so, could this be as easy as monitor the SG then plug the airlock hole 2-3 p before FG, chill the fermenter then bottle?

What are you fermenting in? Can your fermenter hold Pressure? I was saying you could transfer to the bottle to spund in the bottle. The actively fermenting yeast may or may not scavenge O2 that you pickup when bottling.

 

[Jesse93]

What are you fermenting in? Can your fermenter hold Pressure? I was saying you could transfer to the bottle to spund in the bottle. The actively fermenting yeast may or may not scavenge O2 that you pickup when bottling.

I ferment in a plastic bucket. Not sure how much pressure it can hold.

 

[couchsending]

Not much, you can’t spund in that

 

[Jesse93]

Not much, you can’t spund in that

Seems like I have to upgrade my gear [emoji16]

Nevertheless, I have learned a lot about managing hop creep!

Untill I get more space and gear up, I will continue making beer - just not hoppy IPAs.

Thank you for all help!

 

[Jesse93]

What are you fermenting in? Can your fermenter hold Pressure? I was saying you could transfer to the bottle to spund in the bottle. The actively fermenting yeast may or may not scavenge O2 that you pickup when bottling.

Is spunding a keg then fill bottles with a beergun or similar a good alternative?

Because I can fit a keg in the place where I brew but not where I live.

 

[togodoug]

That's the basic idea. I will say that the shelf life isn't as good as kegging, although anyone trying to keep IPAs for a while probably doesn't understand IPAs that well.

So what is the shelf life of bottled ipa?

 

[midegrou]

If you have constant diacetyl issues with hoppy beers try using 1007. It doesn’t produce diacetyl. As soon as you reach terminal with it you can crash it. Local huge brewery near me uses it for everything. They have to filter cause it doesn’t flocc for ****. I think it’s the strain Pizza Pint uses as well although I’m not 100% sure on that.

Any chance you know if K-97 is the dry yeast equivalent of 1007? I've seen a few folks suggest that on various message boards.

Would love to hear any anecdotes from folks using K-97 specifically to avoid diacetyl!

 

[couchsending]

Any chance you know if K-97 is the dry yeast equivalent of 1007? I've seen a few folks suggest that on various message boards.

Would love to hear any anecdotes from folks using K-97 specifically to avoid diacetyl!

k-97 is supposedly the dry version of 1007 but things tend to go awry when yeast is dried. Never used K-97 so I’m not sure.