"Do not transfer to secondary until final gravity is reached" .. ??HUH???

[ScottG58]

Several things tell you when to bottle:

Is the beer at predicted final gravity or maintained gravity?

How does it taste? Does it taste green? If so let the yeast continue making beer.

Has it dropped clear? Is the appearance something you like or does it need time to let gravity pull the yeast down.

And last but not least "is the pipeline dry?"

 

[Yooper]

Well, that would mean that everything I read about it taking 2-3 weeks to reach final gravity is *wrong*, wouldn't it?

Yes. It takes about 3-5 days or thereabouts for the FG to be reached in a properly made beer (enough yeast, correct temperature at pitching the yeast, correct fermentation temperature). Then, it takes about 24 hours or so for the yeast to go back and "clean up" after themselves- even digesting their waste products. The beer is done fermenting, but after the yeast is done it will drop out and the beer will clear and condition a bit.

In a brewery, there is no such thing as a "secondary". It's actually an old winemaking term, when there actually is a secondary fermentation and secondary vessel.

In brewing, once fermentation is done, the beer can be moved to a "bright tank" or a clearing vessel ("secondary" to homebrewers). It doesn't need to be, but it can be. In a brewery, this frees up the fermenter so another beer can be made.

I've been brewing (and making wine) for a long time. I used to always do a secondary for brewing, just as for wine, just because that was the way I learned. I rarely do that now, unless I'm making a lager or doing something with oak in an ale. In any case, you can do one if you want.

Once the beer is finished fermenting, you simply rack it to the clearing vessel and airlock. Once it looks clear, you bottle it. That's all there is to it!

 

[woozy]

If this is still confusing I suggest reading a couple homebrew books. Not trying to be rude but the books help.

I thought I had. It's just that when you get a particular concept in your head and you assume it's a basis... well, you thinks work perfectly fine until you get into a conversation and you realize every-one is using a different vocabulary and making different assumptions.

I mean, yes I knew the wort goes through an initial active stage of fermentation few the first few days and then settles down and clears up but I was taking the "fermentation process" to mean the whole primary and secondary process. And because secondary is utterly optional most books are written with the primary and secondary process combined.

And then I read the isolated posts about measuring and taking F.G. without specifing whether they are determining what or *when* and those that did determine how to tell *when* didn't specify that they were intending to secondary and then when my instructions of my ingredient kits say "Primary fementation can last 2-3 weeks or longer. Do not bottle or transfer to secondary (optional) until final gravity is reached" you can see how I could get confused. (Well, of course you don't bottle until final gravity is reached! You don't bottle until *weeks* after final gravity is reached!)

Well, I'm bottling batch #2 tomorrow! It looked great! Nice and clear and apparently ... No, maybe I should wait and see if it gets clearer. Looked and tasted damned nice though. But I don't need to take any more readings After two weeks that *was* it's final gravity then.

 

[BansheeRider]

I think your instructions meant that you can leave your beer in primary for several weeks or longer. If you do choose to use a secondary (optional) make sure your beer has reached FG before racking.

The confusing part is whether you need a secondary. The answer is no, and it is merely a personal preference. Some people even dry hop, add fruit, oak chips, etc etc directly into their primary vessel.

 

[woozy]

Several things tell you when to bottle:

Is the beer at predicted final gravity or maintained gravity?

Well, after two or three weeks if it isn't, it never will be, will it? You must have done something wrong in the recipe, wouldn't you?

(Not my case. My final gravity is a nudge high 1.02 rather than 1.016, as was my O.G., 1.058 rather than 1.052 but acceptable.)

 

[woozy]

I think your instructions meant that you can leave your beer in primary for several weeks or longer. If you do choose to use a secondary (optional) make sure your beer has reached FG before racking.

Yeah, that makes sense in hind-sight. But as stated it implies "primary fermentation" and reaching final gravity are equivalent, that secondary should require a 2-3 week primary first, and bottling or the optional secondary should occur after the same 2-3 week period.

It probably wasn't intentional but as the instructions (which are otherwise excellent) were for utter novices it could be confusing for those who don't know what secondary is. And "primary fermentation can last 2-3 weeks" is quite misleading.

 

[BansheeRider]

Well, after two or three weeks if it isn't, it never will be, will it? You must have done something wrong in the recipe, wouldn't you?

Not really. It all depends on the yeast. Yeast are living organisms and they do as they please. Some yeast will finish fast and some won't.

 

[BansheeRider]

Yeah, that makes sense in hind-sight. But as stated it implies "primary fermentation" and reaching final gravity are equivalent, that secondary should require a 2-3 week primary first, and bottling or the optional secondary should occur after the same 2-3 week period.

It probably wasn't intentional but as the instructions (which are otherwise excellent) were for utter novices it could be confusing for those who don't know what secondary is. And "primary fermentation can last 2-3 weeks" is quite misleading.

It's not misleading IMO. Fermentation can last a while depending on temp. The cooler the wort the longer fermentation lasts. The only real way to determine when it's finished is by gravity readings. Normally I don't even bother to take a gravity reading until two weeks have passed.

 

[Yooper]

I mean, yes I knew the wort goes through an initial active stage of fermentation few the first few days and then settles down and clears up but I was taking the "fermentation process" to mean the whole primary and secondary process. And because secondary is utterly optional most books are written with the primary and secondary process combined.

There really isn't a "secondary process". Fermentation happens, then the yeast finish and fall out of solution. It's several phases of one process, but it's not separated out by "primary" and "secondary".

First, the yeast reproduce and then begin fermentation. After fermentation slows, the yeast are still hungry and then start fermenting less desirable foods like maltiose and even their own waste products. When they run out of all food, the begin to go dormant. That's when it starts to clear.

That's an oversimplification of what happens, but I think it helps to see that there are not two distinct processes going on here. Instead, it's several phases of one process.

What this means to me personally is that when the beer is finished, and pretty clear, it gets packaged. That's usually about day 10-14.

A well made beer doesn't need weeks and weeks. A commercial brewery will often package by day 7.

 

[JayDubWill]

Brewing is as much an art as it is a science. I do encourage you to taste the beer at various times to get an idea what it tastes like at that stage and how it mellows over the course of a few weeks or months. Ive made some fantastic beers that I thought tasted foul before bottleing.

 

[woozy]

Not really. It all depends on the yeast. Yeast are living organisms and they do as they please. Some yeast will finish fast and some won't.

Okay... explain. The fermentation takes 5 -7 days. And then... final gravity is reached? Final gravity isn't reached? It's mostly reached but yeast can wobble it around a bit for several weeks? Fermation that usually takes 5-7 could in some cases take four weeks? Final gravity becomes stable while the yeasts read your mind and now you want to rack but then final gravity becomes unstable after racking because the yeast is afraid of bottles? huh?

I don't see how final gravity being reached maintained can be a requirement for fermentation to be over, fermentation taking 7 day max, and final gravity being reached being a test for bottling after 2-4 weeks, can be mutually consistent concepts.

 

[lebucheron]

Okay... explain. The fermentation takes 5 -7 days. And then... final gravity is reached? Final gravity isn't reached? It's mostly reached but yeast can wobble it around a bit for several weeks? Fermation that usually takes 5-7 could in some cases take four weeks? Final gravity becomes stable while the yeasts read your mind and now you want to rack but then final gravity becomes unstable after racking because the yeast is afraid of bottles? huh?

I don't see how final gravity being reached maintained can be a requirement for fermentation to be over, fermentation taking 7 day max, and final gravity being reached being a test for bottling after 2-4 weeks, can be mutually consistent concepts.

Yes. Final gravity (FG) is reached when all of the sugar that the yeast is going to eat has been eaten. This usually takes 3-5 days as per Yooper's post. Sometimes (Lagers for ex.) the yeast takes longer to eat all those sugars.
You could drink that 3-5 day old beer and get drunk from your 5% alcohol. But it would suck.... because although your FG has been reached, your yeast pooped out some bad tasting crap that they need to eat up so your beer tastes better. They can do this in your primary or you can transfer them to a secondary to eat that poop. The only reason you check your FG before you bottle is to check to see if you made a mistake; Did your yeast get lazy and not eat all the sugars and go to sleep? - this would be weak, sugary beer and if your yeast decides to wake up in the bottle the C02 pressure would blow those things sky high.
Hope this helped.

 

[woozy]

It's not misleading IMO. Fermentation can last a while depending on temp. The cooler the wort the longer fermentation lasts. The only real way to determine when it's finished is by gravity readings. Normally I don't even bother to take a gravity reading until two weeks have passed.

So.... you're saying that they are saying .... although fermentation usually takes 5-7 days it *could* take 2-3 weeks or longer.

And are they also saying that you *could* bottle imediately after fermentation is done but you probably shouldn't cause you'll probably have cloudy beer?

And in my confusion about the F.G as a test for bottling is that just because I've waited two weeks that doesn't *actually* mean the fermentation is finished?

And if some beers are actually clear after only 10 days, I shouldn't start be concerned that both my two batches seemed ready to bottle in only two weeks? (Seriously, the batch I measured last night did look great.)

But then again even though I measured the gravity once and it was close to the projected final and it has been two weeks, I should measure again on Weds. because after 2 weeks fermentation *might* not be done?

 

[BansheeRider]

Okay... explain. The fermentation takes 5 -7 days. And then... final gravity is reached?

Yes...

It's mostly reached but yeast can wobble it around a bit for several weeks?

No. After the initial fermentation (5-7 days) the yeast will "clean up" improving the "green beer" taste and ridding off flavors.

Fermation that usually takes 5-7 could in some cases take four weeks?

Four weeks is a bit long but it could take longer than 7 days depending on temps and yeast string.

Final gravity becomes stable while the yeasts read your mind and now you want to rack but then final gravity becomes unstable after racking because the yeast is afraid of bottles? huh?

Dude how many beers have you consumed tonight?

I don't see how final gravity being reached maintained can be a requirement for fermentation to be over, fermentation taking 7 day max, and final gravity being reached being a test for bottling after 2-4 weeks, can be mutually consistent concepts.

If you bottle when FG hasn't been reached you will have "bottle bombs". Meaning that too much sugar still exists in the bottle and the yeast will continue to ferment creating bottle bombs.

 

[DirtyOldDuck]

Transferring your beer off the initial trube & into a clean container and letting it sit there for a couple of weeks helps the beer settle out and you get a much clearer, and in some cases a better tasting beer.

I've done it both ways and beer bottled after secondary has about half the sediment in the bottom of the bottle.

I know this is really not addressing OP's question, but I just don't see how this is accurate. Beer clears because yeast and other material in suspension drops out of suspension and settles to the bottom of the fermentor. How quickly this happens is mostly a function of time and temperature, not whatever vessel it is in. Given the same time and temperature, a beer is going to clear just as well in a primary as it will in a secondary. In fact, it may clear even better in the primary because the yeast is not disturbed by unnecessarily racking it to another vessel. A secondary simply does not have any magical powers that make yeast drop out of suspension faster than it will in a primary vessel.

I also doubt that there is any objective evidence that beer tastes better after secondary. Again, everything else being equal, taste may change with time, but not because it was in a secondary.

Finally, the fact that you have noticed more yeast in bottles where you did not secondary, does not mean the lack of secondary is responsible. Different yeast (some floculate more, some compact better), different fermentation temperatures, different fermentation times, and different amounts of priming sugar and levels of carbonation will all effect the amount of yeast sediment in a bottle.

Sorry for the rant. Feel free to disagree.

 

[grem135]

Tack it? Newbie here. What does "tack it" mean?

.

Opps, dang cell phones. I meant rack it

 

[woozy]

The only reason you check your FG before you bottle is to check to see if you made a mistake; Did your yeast get lazy and not eat all the sugars and go to sleep?

OH!!

Okay.

 

[GASoline71]

Different yeast starins take different amounts of time to ferment. A lot of "wheat beer" yeast strains are very fast to ferment, and I've had some in the keg as early as 10 days. Others yeast strains ferment very slow, and take more than 2 weeks. Plus fermentation temps have A LOT to do with how fast yeast work and if the beer is ready sooner.

Most of the instructions you get from LHBS completely suck. They are going by a single guideline to try to help you not make any mistakes so you will have a good brewing experience. The beer might not be the best... but you make beer. Then you go back for another kit... but after some reading and experience... you will learn to pitch the instructions and make your own way of doing things while you brew and ferment your beers.

woozy... are you an engineer by trade?

Gary

 

[BansheeRider]

So.... you're saying that they are saying .... although fermentation usually takes 5-7 days it *could* take 2-3 weeks or longer.

By week 2 the yeast are most likely "cleaning up".

And are they also saying that you *could* bottle imediately after fermentation is done but you probably shouldn't cause you'll probably have cloudy beer?

Not only that but green beer doesn't taste very good.

And in my confusion about the F.G as a test for bottling is that just because I've waited two weeks that doesn't *actually* mean the fermentation is finished?

It doesn't hurt to double check and make sure FG has been reached before bottling/kegging.

And if some beers are actually clear after only 10 days, I shouldn't start be concerned that both my two batches seemed ready to bottle in only two weeks? (Seriously, the batch I measured last night did look great.)

Two weeks should be ok as long FG has been reached. Take two samples three days apart to make sure.

But then again even though I measured the gravity once and it was close to the projected final and it has been two weeks, I should measure again on Weds. because after 2 weeks fermentation *might* not be done?

Absolutely..

 

[woozy]

If you bottle when FG hasn't been reached you will have "bottle bombs". Meaning that too much sugar still exists in the bottle and the yeast will continue to ferment creating bottle bombs.

Yeah... but if this happened it means something went wrong during the fermentation which should have occurred a week or so earlier when all the sugar should have been eaten... but that *does* sometimes happen so you should check during bottle and not assume that the yeast were all healthy and happy little sugar eating robots, right?

Okay, I think I got it.

 

[BansheeRider]

Yeah... but if this happened it means something went wrong during the fermentation which should have occurred a week or so earlier when all the sugar should have been eaten... but that *does* sometimes happen so you should check during bottle and not assume that the yeast were all healthy and happy little sugar eating robots, right?

Okay, I think I got it.

It simply means you bottled too early and didn't make sure fermentation was complete. If this happens when FG was reached then you either had a infection with that bottle or you over primed the batch.

 

[Siteswackson]

I agree and the onle reason I transfer to secondary is to free up my formenting bucket. No patience, I guess