Simple Question - When to move into Secondary?

[pacostagli]

Hi everyone,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been doing extract brewing for about a year now and have maybe half a dozen batches under my belt. I've gotten more into the actual process, trying to make the best batch that I can, now that the novelty has worn off. At first, I was impressed that I could make something even somewhat consumable.

I currently have a Cream Ale extract kit in the works. I took the OG and was bang on based on with the amount of water that I added to bring it roughly to 5 gallons. The kit recommends the OG being between 1.049-1.053 and I was at 1.051. All good so far. The carboy is pretty active, with a little cyclone of gaseous activity going on in it. I put it in the carboy Saturday afternoon, so today being Tuesday, it's been going for three days.

When would you recommend moving this to my secondary fermenter?

The paraphrased instructions say that fermentation will begin in 24-48 hours... To take the gravity again in 4-6 days to see if it's within the FG range of 1.010-1.014. If not, allow it to continue to ferment until it reaches the FG range. Then in regard to using a secondary fermenter, the instructions state that as fermentation slows (5-7 days), BUT BEFORE IT COMPLETES, transfer the beer into Secondary and leave it for about two weeks.

So to my understanding, 4-6 days after brewing, I should take the gravity again and if it's within the FG, transfer it to Secondary and leave it for two weeks, then take the gravity again at the end of the two weeks before priming & bottling for my ABV calc? If the FG has not been achieved within 4-6 days of brewing, leave it for another day or two or three, testing the gravity periodically until it hits the FG range, and then move into Secondary and leave it for two weeks?

Also, is it recommended to ever swirl the Primary or Secondary to reincorporate the particulate at the bottom, allowing the yeast to be reincorporated? I heard this while at a local brewery from a more seasoned brewer than myself. I've done it on one or two of my brews and it seems to cause extra gaseous activity, but not sure if that helped or hurt the final product.

Day 1 vs Day 3

 

[D.B.Moody]

Welcome to HBT. It is likely that most of the advice you receive will be to not do a secondary.
I have been extract brewing since 1994, and I like using a secondary. My standard procedure is to transfer at one week and bottle a week after that. A few time over the years the beer isn't ready to bottle, and it is put off.
One of the reasons I like using a secondary is that my primary is a plastic bucket that I can't see into, while my secondary is a glass carboy, so I can see when it is ready to bottle. Another reason I like using the secondary is that the transfer seems to encourage/speed up the clearing that indicates it's ready to bottle.
P.S. Put a paper bag over that carboy to keep light off of it.

 

[Rish]

As @D.B.Moody said, many here will say skip the secondary unless adding fruit, bulk aging, etc. So here I am! I don't use a secondary, leave it in the fv until yeast are done and it is clear and ready to bottle. I've left it for as long as 6 weeks with never a problem. Good luck!

 

[Jaybird]

^^^^^^^^ What they said^^^^^^

Cheers
Jay

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The primary reasons for not transferring to secondary are

1. the risk of infection (pretty close to zero) and
2. the introduction of additional oxygen (no risk, just reality), unless a closed transfer between containers is done With a cream ale (no whirlpool or dry hops), the impact of the additional oxygen may take some time to show up and will likely be be subtle for most people. /1/ /2/

the instructions state that as fermentation slows (5-7 days), BUT BEFORE IT COMPLETES, transfer the beer into Secondary and leave it for about two weeks.

Apparently, there was a time (back in the 1990s?) in home brewing where brewers would transfer an almost complete fermentation to a narrow necked carboy, making sure the 2nd carboy was almost full. This would minimize "head space"; and the assumption is that finishing fermentation in the 2nd carboy would mitigate the effects of oxygen picked up during the transfer.

When would you recommend moving this to my secondary fermenter?

I will recommend leaving it in the primary container, probably two to four weeks, and watch what happens.

Many ale yeas strains will drop out of suspension when the fermentation is done. When this happens, you will see the beer become clearer.

When the beer clears, take a FG reading to confirm it's ready to bottle.

If it doesn't clear after four weeks, take an FG reading to confirm it's ready to bottle.

---

/1/ Over time, for a couple of regional and national craft beers, I have learned the differences between 1, 3, and 5 month old bottles/cans. In the 1 to 3 month range, the beers are enjoyable, but different. There's also the occasional 3 month old six pack that tastes like it's five months old
/2/ storing home brewed beer cold is one way to slow down the staling process.

 

[Jim R]

When I still buy beer recipe kits (all grain for me), they almost always still include the directions to transfer to a secondary fermenter. They even have this on oxidation prone IPA's. These supply companies need to get rid of these directions that probably do more harm than good. They are misleading and confusing newer brewers.

 

[OleBrewing]

Hell i very rarely take hydrometer samples even when i bottled. I now keg and no risk of bottle bombs.

secondary only on high gravity long age beers, then your head space should be as minimal as possible. will sometimes throw in a little more easy fermenting sugars to kick off a little co2 production to set the barrier.

but like state i use kegs primarily so will secondary in keg if needed.

 

[BeerNsteadofH2O]

I'm relative NOOB compared to.most of these guys, I'm only 3 years( brewing 2 times a month) in, I secondary all my brews, if for no other reason, to free up my fermenters, I've got chilling and heating capabilites for 2 Ale secondaries and 2 lager secondaries, that being said, I do a standard, 2 weeks in the fermenter,(drawing trub at 1 week) and 2 in the secondary , there are exceptions, but that depends on gravity readings etc.
I like the clarity I get from doing a secondary, I never have sediment in my bottles, I've yet to have a known issue from doing it, but I'm more vigilant than most( my wife says anal), I now do all my dry hopping in my fermenters, then 1 or 2 weeks.secondary, then bottle age a minimum of 3 weeks, I'm still learning and evolving my process,FWIW. I never secondary an extract brew. Although its been 2 and a half years since I've brewed one.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

These supply companies need to get rid of these directions that probably do more harm than good. They are misleading and confusing newer brewers.

In the mean time, being able to link to current quality content in wikis (/r/homebrewing) or stickies (homebrewtalk) can point brewers in the right direction.

"Kits get us started, discussion moves us forward"

 

[seatazzz]

What @BrewnWKopperKat said. I haven't secondaried in at least four years, and the last one was a lager I wanted super clear because I was out of gelatin. If you have the capacity to cold crash, there's no reason to take beer 'off the yeast' unless you're adding fruit or aging for months. Even then, I've read of brewers who've left beer on the yeast for months and still got drinkable beer out of it. The risk of oxidation is real, as is allowing bugs or other nasties in.

In my quick scroll of the above I didn't really see an answer to your question about swirling up the trub/yeast to 'keep it going' as it were. Not necessary, in most cases. You may think that all the yeast has fallen to the bottom after primary, but keep in mind we're talking about microscopic animals here; you can't see them with the naked eye, and there should be plenty left in the beer doing the hard work of cleanup after the party that was primary fermentation. Like high school janitors, they need time to get their work done well (apologies to any high school janitors that may be reading this). I've said it before, and will probably say it again, but patience is the one ingredient that is rarely listed in homebrew recipes; but it's way up there on the necessary list.

 

[bwible]

Oh no, the secondary/settling debate!

 

[pvtpublic]

Another big reason to skip secondary - your yeast is creating by-products during fermentation, most notable is diacetyl, which has a buttery flavor and a light oily slick feeling on the tongue. In most beers it's pretty gross. Another off-flavor is acetaldehyde, a green apple, grassy flavor. This is an intermediate chemical in the production of ethanol. Sometimes you'll still have a bunch of this left over after a week. Leaving your beer on the yeast will allow it time to reconsume these off-flavors and "clean up" your beer.

 

[AZ Maverick]

I've been brewing for 27 years.
I haven't transferred my beers to a secondary in probably the last 15 years of brewing.
In fact, most of my beers ales or lagers, stay in primary for 6 to 8 weeks before I cold crash then transfer them to kegs.
Yeah - the old transfer to secondary or not question, you will probably find the answers here split down the middle.

 

[odie]

never. secondary is not needed

 

[DBhomebrew]

Never? Brett'd old ale? Fruited lambic?

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Tertiary fermentation. That's where you need to be. Only quaternary if needed though.

 

[hotbeer]

My beer bottles are my secondary fermenters. But only after the beer has sat in the primary long enough for it to clear up and all the suspended stuff go to the bottom of the FV. Essentially when that happens the beer will look "dead" for lack of a better description. And you'll be able to see entirely across the trub layer to the other side of the FV if in a clear sided container.

This has taken me as long as six weeks. But in general the beers that were longer in the primary FV were all very successful. The beers that I've had in the FV for just 10 - 16 days were more mixed results. Some good, some bad. So there seems to be a benefit being more patient and leaving beer in the primary for longer periods.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Oh no, the secondary/settling debate!

The "secondary or not discussion", every couple of years from someone relatively new to the forum, may be sufficient evidence that the forum(s) are not dead (yet).

 

[BeerNsteadofH2O]

The "secondary or not discussion", every couple of years from someone relatively new to the forum, may be sufficient evidence that the forum(s) are not dead (yet).

True statement, I'm a fisherman. most of the web sites I used to frequent have died a slow death, politics, seem to be a the final nail in the coffin, when I found this web site, one of the very first things I noticed was this web site is far kinder to "newbies" and the less experienced than any place (web site) I have experienced, unlike fishing or aquarium keeping, which I have done most of my life, here, I'm just another"Joe" ( my name is actually Joe) yet, even with my limited experience, I feel I can still add something, yet learn a tremendous amount..
So I say thank you to the mentors here for their patience and knowledge.

 

[pacostagli]

Thanks everyone for your replies! Hugely helpful to me. I'm confidently now going to skip secondary with this Cream Ale and give it an extended stay in Primary instead!

Final thoughts - it seems that leaving the FV alone until the beer is clear is the way to go. And each beer could take a different amount of time to clear up and for the yeast to settle, so it's not really a "give it 2 weeks" kind of thing, but more of a visual decision. I'm sure after making the same type of beer multiple times that one develops more of an intuition as to when it'll be ready, but until that, wait until it's clear and then take FG to confirm.

If clear is the goal, how does one handle hazies?

 

[AlexKay]

Two weeks in primary is good. That's generally plenty of time for fermentation to finish and for the yeast to clean up any unwanted metabolites. (Not every fermentation will finish in 2 weeks, so gravity readings are highly recommended to make sure.)

I do not think you need to wait longer than that to promote clarity. When you use bottle fermentation to carbonate, you're going to re-suspend yeast anyway, and you'll end up with gunk at the bottom of your bottles pretty much no matter what you do. Bottle condition at warm ambient for two weeks, refrigerate for a few days, and pour carefully. You'll be good.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If clear is the goal, how does one handle hazies?

more seriously:

• Turning your Fermonster into a complete closed transfer system for cheap!
• eta: New England IPA - "Northeast" style IPA
• Russian River's Ultimate Guide to Oxygen Management in the Brewhouse - YouTube

will get you started.

 

[hotbeer]

If clear is the goal, how does one handle hazies?

Wait till it's not murky anymore and is just hazy. Some peoples idea of hazy is murky. Murky isn't good, IMO.

Given enough time conditioning in the bottle, even if you did bottle it murky, it'll still clear up. Just that you'll have more sediment on the bottom of the bottle to be careful not to stir up when you pour.

Though I've not experimented to see if bottling murky beer and letting it clear in the bottles vs letting it clear up in the FV results in better tastes or not.

 

[AZ Maverick]

Thanks everyone for your replies! Hugely helpful to me. I'm confidently now going to skip secondary with this Cream Ale and give it an extended stay in Primary instead!

Final thoughts - it seems that leaving the FV alone until the beer is clear is the way to go. And each beer could take a different amount of time to clear up and for the yeast to settle, so it's not really a "give it 2 weeks" kind of thing, but more of a visual decision. I'm sure after making the same type of beer multiple times that one develops more of an intuition as to when it'll be ready, but until that, wait until it's clear and then take FG to confirm.

If clear is the goal, how does one handle hazies?

I have two temperature controlled fermentation chambers.
I use Whirlfloc during the boil to help minimize haze.
When primary fermentation is complete (ales or lagers), I reduce the fermentation chamber to 38°F and let the beer rest (lager) for four weeks.
After the lager period I add gelatin then cold crash the beer to 32°F and let it sit for four days.
Then I keg it.
It comes out very clear and clean.

Helles

Maibock

 

[Kharnynb]

unless you are doing fruit or very long aging there really is no reason to secondary at all.

 

[Rish]

without remixing all the sediment at the bottom?

You'll need to siphon the cider with tubing that is held above the lees to avoid getting them in the new container when you're ready to move it. I agree with @Kharnynb that you don't need to rack it now. Just leave it there until it's clear then move it to your bottling container, prime it (if carbonating) then bottle. Secondary is rarely needed.

 

[Wrendelar]

My primary fermentation appears to be nearing completion, but I have a question about moving on to secondary fermentation. I am using two half-gallon growlers (as this is my first time I didn’t buy all the best equipment although I probably will in the future if this turns out decent) so I don’t have a standard carboy. How should I transfer the cider from first to secondary without remixing all the sediment at the bottom? Do I just pour it off very slowly? Also, will this encounter with oxygen damage the process? If so how should I transfer it without subjecting it to oxygen? Thank you very much!

Like Rish said you need to siphon it out off the lees. This will do the job for you

Fermtech Regular 5/16" Auto Siphon 24" Length with 8 feet of Tubing, clear, 1 piece Amazon.com

Just leave the cap on and start in the middle of the carboy working down slowly and try your best to leave the lees and trub at the bottom.

Then prime and bottle

 

[pacostagli]

If anyone is looking for an update, I took a gravity reading direct from the FV (after sanitizing everything) and all looked good, so I moved straight from the FV to bottles at the two week mark.[ I netted about 27 16oz bottled and 4 12oz bottles (the giveaways). I'll post an update once I try and bottle! I took a photo every morning and it was amazing to see the transformation - from dark and clear, to cloudy with yeast activity, back to dark and clear over the course of two weeks.