Dissolved Oxygen Experiment- Interesting Finds with Beer Transfer Method

[Qhrumphf]

It’s a good question and often the first one people ask when they start to contemplate why anyone would want to reduce oxygen exposure on the hot side when they are just going to aerate the wort before pitching.

The important thing to understand is that heat increases the kinetic energy of molecules therefore chemical reactions happen faster at higher temperatures. This means that the same staling reactions that take minutes in the mash will be slowed down to hours or days after chilling in the fermenter. Healthy yeast are quite capable of mopping up all available DO in less than an hour providing the protection to save your wonderful fresh malt/hop flavors and aromas.

This.

Even at fermentation temps oxygen uptake, and the initial series of oxidation reactions, is quick (you measure DO in a brite tank during/immediately after a transfer vs the next day you'll see a noticeable difference), but yeast are quicker. If the assertion of the rate of oxidation to temperature as logarithmic is assumed to be true (which the chemistry suggests, and sensory for cold storage vs room temp vs hot storage of finished beer also validates), mash sparge and boil temp oxidation rates are orders of magnitude higher than fermentation temps.

 

[TheMadKing]

It’s a good question and often the first one people ask when they start to contemplate why anyone would want to reduce oxygen exposure on the hot side when they are just going to aerate the wort before pitching.

The important thing to understand is that heat increases the kinetic energy of molecules therefore chemical reactions happen faster at higher temperatures. This means that the same staling reactions that take minutes in the mash will be slowed down to hours or days after chilling in the fermenter. Healthy yeast are quite capable of mopping up all available DO in less than an hour providing the protection to save your wonderful fresh malt/hop flavors and aromas from being oxidized.

Thanks! Do you know if anyone has done the kenetics analysis of these reactions and produced a graph showing the reaction rate values of some of the major the oxidation compounds over a typical brewing temperature range? I'd like to see that data

My experience is limited to kenetics in actinide chemistry over a pH range and while there is certainly some variation in the values I don't recall having seen such a wide range from seconds to an hour+, so that's surprising.

Edit I found this paper which is interesting but it's post packaging only, but the temperature range is right

https://www.agraria.com.br/extranet...kinetics_of_beer_ageing_and_1601494802462.pdf
Edit edit

A more fundamental question is: what exactly are the reactions in pre-fermentation wort? I can find lots of papers in cold side and packaged oxygen and the reaction series in that solution, but very little on the hot side. So what oxygen sensitive flavor active compounds are being produced (or rendered non-flavor active) during the wort production process?

 

[Climb]

What was the DO reading of the worts?

 

[micraftbeer]

The important thing to understand is that heat increases the kinetic energy of molecules therefore chemical reactions happen faster at higher temperatures. This means that the same staling reactions that take minutes in the mash will be slowed down to hours or days after chilling in the fermenter.

OK, so here's how I'd sum this up. Let me know if I'm summarizing correctly, and then I've got two questions.

Dissolved Oxygen doesn't remain as DO in the presence of wort & beer, it goes through chemical reactions to create various oxides. In the end, as brewers, we're worried about minimizing the oxides. And DO is an indicator of the potential of our mixture to create oxides. However, since these oxidizing reactions are happening in real time, we're measuring DO as it's being consumed. At hot temperatures this happens quickly versus at room temperatures.

And has been pointed out, when looking at finished beer, the staling level we're concerned about is in the range of 20 PPB, whereas the MW600 has accuracy in the +/- 300 PPB range, meaning it's essentially pointless to try to measure this, and even comparative measurements will be complicated to avoid introducing air in the sampling/measuring process itself.

Sound right?


Here's my questions:

1. Do the same DO-consuming reactions happen in water? Is measuring strike water DO something that works?

2. I think the only one of my tests where I measured DO on hot wort was when I took some samples from the boil kettle to measure pre and post boil. (The other ones were with cool wort or with water.) And in that case, I had to cool it down (put it in a shallow dish to cool in the air before putting in a glass to submerge the measurement probe in once it had cooled to room temperature. Any measure on how fast the DO gets consumed at mash or boil temperatures? In other words, if you took a sample of hot wort right after you performed some process you were interested in, and then cooled quickly, would you be able to cool it fast enough to get a read on the DO that was present in the hot state?

 

[micraftbeer]

Huh.. I wonder why replies questioning the accuracy of a glowing review could fall into a black hole never to been seen again. Also I wasn’t to only one who attempted to comment so i doubt it was an accident they vanished.

As I mentioned before in this string, I don't own/run the website, I write equipment reviews and he publishes them. I'll reach out to him to see what's up with the Comments. If the comment was similar to what was earlier in this string "This is all garbage, go educate yourself", he might have found that non-specific and not really productive, and punted it. He will usually tell me if people post comments/questions so I can look at them and respond. I'll let you know what I find.

 

[Spivey24]

Yes, the more I learn about DO the more frustrating it is for homebrewers. That is why active yeast is your friend. They will clean up the O2 beyond our measurement levels on the cold side. On the hot side, faith and good information is about is good as a low cost meter.

How does one introduce active yeast into a closed transfer without doing more harm than good? And at what temperature would you do this?

 

[Bassman2003]

The active yeast comes from transferring to your keg with about 3 to 5 gravity points left in fermenttion and letting the beer finish in the keg. All the while, capturing the CO2 to naturally carbonate the beer.

 

[Bilsch]

Since this is now veering hard into the most interesting and technical aspects of low oxygen brewing I’m going to step away from those topics on this thread so as to not break forum rules. For anyone interested in going further down that rabbit hole.. you all know by now where the entrance is at.

 

[micraftbeer]

Huh.. I wonder why replies questioning the accuracy of a glowing review could fall into a black hole never to been seen again. Also I wasn’t to only one who attempted to comment so i doubt it was an accident they vanished.

I want to reply to this, as my integrity was being questioned. I just discussed with the website owner. If any of you use WordPress for a website, and allow comments on articles, you'll understand this. But these are huge targets for spammers out on the web. On my simple little website I get lots of people trying to sell me Cialis, asking where to go to get a good haircut in my area, and then random stuff in Chinese and Russian characters. HomeBrewFinds pays a service to filter through all of this, and he said this service has blocked literally millions of spam comments.

Those that don't get blocked by spam service go to him for review if they are a first-time user (subsequent posts by same person don't). He deletes comments that he finds when they are inappropriate, unhelpful, off topic or obviously self-serving (usually another vendor). @Bilsch 's comment was awaiting his approval, which he did. It was a couple weeks ago (pre-Thanksgiving), and I can't speak for the frequency of how often he reviews comments pending review.

But nothing malicious or conspiracy-related here.

And by the way, I'm working to gather further info to adjust the review/experiments to put them in the context of the good discussion we've had here.

 

[Bilsch]

But nothing malicious or conspiracy-related here.

And by the way, I'm working to gather further info to adjust the review/experiments to put them in the context of the good discussion we've had here.

Very happy to hear that you are considering some corrections. That really is the most important thing that can come of all this.

Remember though that measuring oxygen uptake in the brewing process is 4th year brewing university level and will take some time to fully grasp. May I suggest you limit your review of the MW600 to simply measuring DO in water and when oxygenating pre-pitch since that’s all this meter is really capable of doing. Limiting the scope should make the job easier. Consider concentrating more on how to setup, calibrate and then confirm the meters function with zero solution.

Be glad to help if you run into issues. Also maybe think about posting the drafts of any corrections here so everyone can weigh in on it.

Hope that helps.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

If any of you use WordPerfect for a website...

Maybe that is the issue. You should talk to him about upgrading to something more modern...like WordPress! Yeah, it is a good day when my spam to legit ratio is only 50:1. If anybody needs leads on increasing their customer retention, or is looking for a vape shop, or CBD, or lingerie, just let me know!

 

[micraftbeer]

WordPerfect... Probably shows my age. Or anyone that knows what that program is!

 

[VikeMan]

WordPerfect... Probably shows my age. Or anyone that knows what that program is!

WordPerfect for DOS, run off 5-1/4" floppies.

But actually, WordPerfect for Windows still exists and is still supported. I think the latest version was just last year.

 

[sibelman]

@Bilsch wrote: "... measuring oxygen uptake in the brewing process is 4th year brewing university level..." <sigh> I'm doubting whether I'll ever learn the comparative benefits of different homebrewing anti-oxygen methods, e.g. keg purging with numerous bursts from a CO2 tank vs. purging via fermentation effluent. Still, I'm grateful for the exchange of ideas and experiences here, even if we can only subjectively measure the results (taste, aroma).

Cheers!

 

[Bilsch]

I'm doubting whether I'll ever learn the comparative benefits of different homebrewing anti-oxygen methods…

First you simply decide that you want to learn it. Then you go ask the people that know.

 

[sibelman]

First you simply decide that you want to learn it. Then you go ask the people that know.

Back in June you wrote, "There is enough CO2 produced from a ferment to purge the serving keg many times over of the oxygen in contains. You simply need to connect from the fermenter to a cleaned, sanitized and dry serving keg then through a fermentation lock. This had been verified by several people who have the proper measuring equipment."

I suppose these are the people that know, and that you have asked them. For a few batches I've been using this method based on assertions like yours that I've found here on HBT. I've seen some arithmetic about the quantity of CO2 produced - also, some arithmetic about successive purges from gas cylinders - along with the inferred oxygen reduction.

But I have not yet been able to find those who "know" by measuring - my preferred way of understanding the world. Perhaps I haven't tried hard enough...

So, my good fellow, could you please offer any tips/links where one might go to learn about the measurements these folks have made?

 

[Bilsch]

So, my good fellow, could you please offer any tips/links where one might go to learn about the measurements these folks have made?

The measurements were made by at least 4 different brewers that possess commercial in-process DO equipment which collects and graphs the data they posted. It was quite clear how well the ferment purge worked.

Unfortunately though on this forum we aren’t allowed to mention the name nor link to the other place that contains said data. The best I can do here is tell you it exists.

 

[madscientist451]

Unfortunately though on this forum we aren’t allowed to mention the name nor link to the other place that contains said data. The best I can do here is tell you it exists.

Since when was it forbidden to put links to sources? If you are worried about it, send it to me on a PM and I'll post it and see what happens.

 

[eric19312]

Hmm I thought I knew where this was posted. Perhaps it is behind the paywall. Anyway when I go to where I thought it was it is same graphs and maths posted here by @doug293cz (and nicely attributed to him over there). I'm with @madscientist451 would be interested to see the report of the measurements that confirm the calculations.

 

[doug293cz]

Since when was it forbidden to put links to sources? If you are worried about it, send it to me on a PM and I'll post it and see what happens.

Hmm I thought I knew where this was posted. Perhaps it is behind the paywall. Anyway when I go to where I thought it was it is same graphs and maths posted here by @doug293cz (and nicely attributed to him over there). I'm with @madscientist451 would be interested to see the report of the measurements that confirm the calculations.

Please contact @Bilsch by PM for information. That's all I will say on this matter. Discussion about why will be deleted.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[micraftbeer]

Yeah, it is a good day when my spam to legit ratio is only 50:1. If anybody needs leads on increasing their customer retention, or is looking for a vape shop, or CBD, or lingerie, just let me know!

I don't want to reinvigorate the kicking, as I haven't posted the update to my MW600 review yet with the info we discussed here, but I came across one of those random spam comments on my WordPress site today that made me laugh. Below is a comment someone left on my website, attached to my tasting review of Stone Arrogant Bastard. This is the stuff you have to slog through on Comment postings on WordPress. This one in particular made me laugh...

I wish to show some appreciation to this writer for rescuing me from this particular circumstance. Right after surfing through the world-wide-web and meeting notions that were not powerful, I thought my life was done. Living devoid of the strategies to the issues you’ve resolved by means of your main guide is a critical case, and the kind which could have adversely damaged my career if I had not noticed the blog. That capability and kindness in controlling all the details was precious. I am not sure what I would’ve done if I hadn’t come across such a solution like this. I’m able to at this moment relish my future. Thanks for your time very much for the high quality and effective help. I will not think twice to recommend the blog to any person who will need recommendations about this matter.

 

[doug293cz]

I don't want to reinvigorate the kicking, as I haven't posted the update to my MW600 review yet with the info we discussed here, but I came across one of those random spam comments on my WordPress site today that made me laugh. Below is a comment someone left on my website, attached to my tasting review of Stone Arrogant Bastard. This is the stuff you have to slog through on Comment postings on WordPress. This one in particular made me laugh...

I wish to show some appreciation to this writer for rescuing me from this particular circumstance. Right after surfing through the world-wide-web and meeting notions that were not powerful, I thought my life was done. Living devoid of the strategies to the issues you’ve resolved by means of your main guide is a critical case, and the kind which could have adversely damaged my career if I had not noticed the blog. That capability and kindness in controlling all the details was precious. I am not sure what I would’ve done if I hadn’t come across such a solution like this. I’m able to at this moment relish my future. Thanks for your time very much for the high quality and effective help. I will not think twice to recommend the blog to any person who will need recommendations about this matter.

I wonder how many different places they posted that exact same comment. It's specific to absolutely nothing.

Brew on

 

[micraftbeer]

Not specific!? You mean to tell me my beer review didn't save that person's life and career? It felt very personal and sincere.

 

[Bilsch]

Interesting video of our friend Bassman having fun with a high quality DO meter.

 

[alphakry]

Very happy to hear that you are considering some corrections. That really is the most important thing that can come of all this.

Remember though that measuring oxygen uptake in the brewing process is 4th year brewing university level and will take some time to fully grasp. May I suggest you limit your review of the MW600 to simply measuring DO in water and when oxygenating pre-pitch since that’s all this meter is really capable of doing. Limiting the scope should make the job easier. Consider concentrating more on how to setup, calibrate and then confirm the meters function with zero solution.

Be glad to help if you run into issues. Also maybe think about posting the drafts of any corrections here so everyone can weigh in on it.

Hope that helps.

Apologies for resurrecting an old but quite 'energetic' discussion, could I ask @Bilsch to help clarify if my method if using the MW600 would be correct?

My intent is exactly as you describe - to measure DO in my wort after it's been brought to pitching temps but before oxygenation via a carb stone. This is at the 1BBL scale and my presumption is I can use the meter hung through a top 1.5" TC port, submerged just under the surface while providing O2 through the carb stone located towards the bottom of the fermenter.

Would the motion provided by the bubbling be sufficient to provide an accurate measurement of the DO ingress on the fly, so that I simply wait to hit my target ppm number on the MW600 and then cut off the O2? Or is there a smarter better way that others do this?

 

[balrog]

WordPerfect for DOS, run off 5-1/4" floppies.

WordStar, FTW.

Carry on

 

[PCABrewing]

WordPerfect... Probably shows my age. Or anyone that knows what that program is!

I used WordPerfect 3.0 back in the DOS days.
Then I worked for a consulting firm that specialized on the legal market helping firms complete the "inevitable" transition from WordPerfect to Word.
If you ever wanted to know how to get entire staff of legal teams to hate you, that was it.
WordPerfect was clearly the superior product at the time up the point that they tried to develop for both Windows and OS/2.
That's when they started to lose ground.

 

[VikeMan]

I used WordPerfect 3.0 back in the DOS days.
Then I worked for a consulting firm that specialized on the legal market helping firms complete the "inevitable" transition from WordPerfect to Word.
If you ever wanted to know how to get entire staff of legal teams to hate you, that was it.
WordPerfect was clearly the superior product at the time up the point that they tried to develop for both Windows and OS/2.

Did you ever get to see financial managers being forced to go from Lotus 1-2-3 to Excel? Good times.

 

[mac_1103]

Yes, WordPerfect was by far the superior product. And I loved Louts 1-2-3 almost as much as I love typos.

 

[balrog]

Quattro Pro.

 

[alphakry]

so... anyone still On Topic?

(p.s. WordPerfect4life)

 

[balrog]

After you've been around here for a while you'll notice how threads can wander a bit, sometimes like a high school marching band on meth.

 

[Bassman2003]

It is a tough and expensive topic. To answer your last post, maybe without confidence. My understanding is that one can not really trust the readings of a lower cost DO meter. Sadly lower cost is under $700-$1000. I tried to research this and realized I was better off just consulting the few folks that had expensive meters and setting a ballpark procedure.

I know this is a crap answer but it is sadly the case. DO is a tricky measurement anyway because there is absorption so the readings fluctuate as saturation takes place. So if anything, during oxygination you would want to add some O2, wait, take a reading, add some more, take a reading etc... until the numbers stabilize. If you are using oxygen scrubbers like sulfites the process is more complicated as they are eating the O2 as you add it. So you first need to see when they are expended to know you are net adding O2 to the wort.

I would use your meter, keep constant motion and monitor your batches. As a whole, the group tends to favor over-oxygenation than under. I do 2 min at .12 LPM, let rest while I empty the boil kettle then add 2-4 minutes at .5 LPM. Personal experience is going to be your only guide as most of the "others" were kind of shown to not be welcome here. So you are not going to get the answers unless you join elsewhere.