Culturing Liquid Yeast to be GF

[Adam Daniels]

Hey all, I was recently diagnosed with Celiacs and was curious if anyone has ever successfully cultured liquid yeast to be GF?

Pre-diagnosis I was an avid homebrewer and loved to brew hazy IPAs so I'm looking to culture WY-1318 (London Ale III) to use with all GF grains.

If not, has anyone tried to make a hazy w/ S-04? If so, anyone have a good recipe???

This is the first of many questions I have... just starting to dive into research so any info helps not trying to make myself sick and have to dump a batch!

 

[skleice]

Welcome to the club! Your post is basically my exact post from a year and a half ago.

There are some brewers that have done this. @Legume? I have yet to attempt it but have heard the resulting ppm may not be as safe as we think. I'm no authority.

Yes you can use S-04, just keep it in lower 60's to avoid the tartness. Obviously, it's not going to be as nice as 1318.

The biggest difference process is definitely going to be mashing due to gelatinization temps being very high, thus killing the natural enzymes. Most people employ a high 168-185 (depending on who you ask) 15-30 minute rest with Termamyl. Then followed by a 150's 75-90 minute rest with SEBAmyl L or Diastase. I strongly recommend watching this for more detail...



You can make good gluten free beer. Far better than anything you can buy. The body and head retention are the biggest frustration for me. There is a thread with some NEIPA talk if you scroll down and there are recipes on glutenfreehomebrewing.org (particularly by Matt S.)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Let's see...
Make a starter
Decant 80% (liquid)
Stir and pitch 25% of the slurry into a new starter
Decand 80% (liquid)
Pitch into your batch.

By making 2 starters and decanting this way, that removes 99% of the gluten (assuming it's evenly distributed)... and of course it's further diluted in the batch.

Alternately you could remove 100% of gluten by plating the yeast and growing it up on GF media.

Plating has the added benefit of removing contaminants, and contamination is the main concern with maintaining and propagating a culture.

 

[skleice]

Here's a recipe that is drinking nicely. I'm sure u can guess the inspiration...

I used a yeast Blend (bottom notes)

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Sapling

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty IPA: New England IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 4.16 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 83% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.067
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 6.83%
IBU (tinseth): 64.28
SRM (morey): 7.2

FERMENTABLES:
3.21 lb - Pale Millet Malt (37%)
2 lb - Goldfinch Millet Malt (23%)
0.87 lb - Biscuit Rice Malt (10%)
0.87 lb - Buckwheat Malt (10%)
0.87 lb - CaraMillet Malt (10%)
0.43 lb - Flaked Quinoa (5%)
0.43 lb - Munich Millet Malt (5%)

HOPS:
0.75 oz - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 20.25
0.25 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.5, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 7.86
2.25 oz - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Whirlpool for 15 min at 170 °F, IBU: 26.07
0.75 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.5, Use: Whirlpool for 15 min at 170 °F, IBU: 10.11
2.25 oz - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
0.75 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.5, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
0.75 oz - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.6, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days
0.25 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 13.5, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temperature, Temp: 104 F, Time: 25 min, Amount: 3.73 gal, Beta Glucan
2) Temperature, Temp: 180 F, Time: 25 min, Amount: 3.73 gal, Gelatinization
3) Temperature, Temp: 152 F, Time: 75 min, Amount: 3.73 gal, Saccharification
4) Temperature, Temp: 170 F, Time: 15 min, Amount: 3.73 gal, Mash Out
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.75 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
3 g - Calcium Chloride, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
1.9 g - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
0.5 tsp - SEBAmyl L, Time: 51 min, Type: Other, Use: Mash
1 tbsp - Termamyl, Time: 1 min, Type: Other, Use: Mash
0.5 tsp - Yeast Nutrient, Time: 10 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil
1.1 g - Calcium Chloride, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
0.7 g - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge

YEAST:
Mangrove Jack - Liberty Bell M36
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 76%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 62 - 74 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F
Pitch Rate: 1.0 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Dextrose
CO2 Level: 2.4 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: 14369
Ca2: 106
Mg2: 1
Na: 15
Cl: 134
SO4: 74
HCO3: 0
Water Notes:

Yeast Blend
M36 (16.56g)
T58 (.9g)
WB06 (.54g)

 

[Adam Daniels]

skleice thanks so much for the awesome info! That yeast blend sounds super interesting as I haven't brewed with any of those. After I get back from holiday travel going to try to re-create that recipe.

Also thanks for the info about culturing yeast... Probably going to avoid... I'm not as scientific of a man as I would like to think, so plating yeast as [URL='https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/members/rph_guy.233379/']RPh_Guy was mentioning might be out of my wheelhouse. [/URL]

[URL='https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/members/rph_guy.233379/']Hopefully that infamous dry NEIPA strain will release to the general public at some point! One can only hope! [/URL]

 

[skleice]

skleice thanks so much for the awesome info! That yeast blend sounds super interesting as I haven't brewed with any of those. After I get back from holiday travel going to try to re-create that recipe.

Also thanks for the info about culturing yeast... Probably going to avoid... I'm not as scientific of a man as I would like to think, so plating yeast as RPh_Guy was mentioning might be out of my wheelhouse.

Hopefully that infamous dry NEIPA strain will release to the general public at some point! One can only hope!

No prob. You can use S-04 instead of M36 (many people believe they're the same repacked). Also, I wouldn't worry about the flaked quinoa. It's supposed to aid in head retention, but I have not experienced that. On that topic....avoid oats! The high fat content will destroy whatever head u have. Cheers

 

[franc1969]

Let's see...
Make a starter
Decant 80% (liquid)
Stir and pitch 25% of the slurry into a new starter
Decand 80% (liquid)
Pitch into your batch.

By making 2 starters and decanting this way, that removes 99% of the gluten (assuming it's evenly distributed)... and of course it's further diluted in the batch.

I am happy this popped up - this is exactly the reason I joined the forum this month. I want to use some Wyeast cultures for wine and cider- but am told they all have gluten, whether promoted for wine or beer.
Never having opened a smack pack before- would it be possible to at least avoid the blast from the nutrient pack? What does the pack look like when cut open without popping it, and should I add something else to compensate?
I am good with trying to culture out into another brew/wine a bit first. I am a few steps back from Adam on brewing though. I never brewed my own beer before, but the chocolate and beer trip through Belgium and the Netherlands was my Euro grand tour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

would it be possible to at least avoid the blast from the nutrient pack? What does the pack look like when cut open without popping it, and should I addsomething else to compensate?

You do not need to pop the nutrient pack.
It's a clear plastic packet... It'll be obvious whether or not it's broken once you pull it out

Adding nutrient generally helps the yeast but isn't generally necessary.

I am good with trying to culture out into another brew/wine a bit first.

Does anyone know whether GF wort has complex sugars? It's generally not recommended to propagate yeast in simple sugar and then switch it to complex grain sugar (e.g. maltose or maltotriose).

Cheers!

 

[KeinGluten]

Does anyone know whether GF wort has complex sugars? It's generally not recommended to propagate yeast in simple sugar and then switch it to complex grain sugar (e.g. maltose or maltotriose).

Worts from sorghum and millet do, and I expect wort made from any starch in a mash type environment should, since the more complex sugars are just incompletely broken down sugar/starch. (It is possible to produce more pure sugar, like corn syrup, but I believe that requires the assistance of chemical agents like sulfuric acid.)

 

[Legume]

Ocasionally I culture liquid yeast away from its gluten containing media. I make a 1l starter from sorghum extract and pitch a liquid yeast culture (with as much of the media decanted away as possible)into it.

When the starter is finished, decant off all the liquid and use the yeast to inoculate another 2Lstarter...I have added a vial of clarity firm to the second starter as cheap insurance against any residual gluten contamination.

This second starter is decanted and pitched into my wort(with some of the slurry saved in a jar to make future starters)

When I bother to do this, I usually keep the culture going for 5 to 7 batches.

This process does not remove 100% of the gluten in the liquid yeast media, but it removes the vast majority.

The 100% safe method would be to plate out the yeast and grow the culture up from a colony.

 

[Silly Yak]

Ocasionally I culture liquid yeast away from its gluten containing media. I make a 1l starter from sorghum extract and pitch a liquid yeast culture (with as much of the media decanted away as possible)into it.

When the starter is finished, decant off all the liquid and use the yeast to inoculate another 2Lstarter...I have added a vial of clarity firm to the second starter as cheap insurance against any residual gluten contamination.

This second starter is decanted and pitched into my wort(with some of the slurry saved in a jar to make future starters)

When I bother to do this, I usually keep the culture going for 5 to 7 batches.

This process does not remove 100% of the gluten in the liquid yeast media, but it removes the vast majority.

The 100% safe method would be to plate out the yeast and grow the culture up from a colony.

Hey @Legume how much sorghum syrup do you use for a 1l starter?

I received a stir plate and 2l Erlenmeyer flask from Santa and this sounds like a fun experiment.