Stalled Fermentation- 2 Yeast Packs Later

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First off, let me say that I am no pro, weekend warrior at best, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt. You mention starting your mash water at 172? I use a propane burner and a 10 gallon kettle with a brew in a bag setup and I have never gone much over say 160 when I mash in. I have found, and I am sure I am the exception, that my mash temps don't drop that much when I add my grain. Maybe 5 or so degrees if that. I can mash in at say 160 and I am usually at about155 or so when I get everything mixed in. Now, with that said, I don't have any of my notes here at work to prove any of this, but that mash in temp seems really high. But, if you are dropping down to the 152 to 155 within the first few minutes I am sure you are good. I have been told by others that most of the conversion happens within the first 20 to 30 mins of the mash but again, I have no proof of that at all. Just what I remember being told. Just my two cents worth, and believe me, that is about all it is worth. LOL. Rock On!!!!!
That's a great point. ~160F, at least on my rig, no matter the size of the beer, is kinda always the strike temp.

I've only fly sparged, batched, then returned to fly sparging. Why don't AIO brewers with their automated temp control features strike cold, then let the gizmo bring it up to their desired sach temp? It's an old Belgian technique that I've emulated in the past on my rig. I get that it'll take a while longer, but there are benefits to the practice, especially when you consider that AIO brewers tend to struggle with efficiency, and it's not like AIO brewers need to hover over their mashes due to the temp control feature. Maybe give it a stir every 15mins or so?
 
Nice point. I always calculate my strike temp based on the total mass and temperature of the grains, but I think the lowest I've ever set it is 154F (in the summertime and with less grain) and the highest was 160F (in the fall with a bit more grain). I can imagine in the winter with even more grain, raising the strike temp to 162F or so, but I can't really imagine going as high as 172F. That said, if you hit your target range after adding it, it sounds like it worked, whatever the reason. I use brewing software and online calculators to get these numbers and they've been very accurate every time so far, but 172 just sounds really high.
 
I'd like to amplify this point because it is an excellent point.

You mentioned that you had a "frustrating start," so I assume that this is your first brew? You can't possibly miss your numbers on your first ever brew! ;) Sure, you have your kit's suggested OG--kits are always highly optimistic regarding their OG predictions for any number of reasons (some innocent, some less than innocent). The most likely cause of a low OG from a kit is a very course grind. The last thing a kit maker wants is for you to have a stuck mash, so they tend to mill quite course while advertising a theoretical OG that can't actually be accomplished with that course grind.

And that gets us into software. Your software is making certain assumptions about your rig that you don't know yet because this is your first brew. The only way forward is to take it on the chin, carefully record your readings, plug them into your software, and refine your software model. Brewing is slow, miserable, expensive work. I can't emphasize that enough. You're a new brewer and you're going to suck for a while. I can also tell you that it's worth it to stick with it. It's an amazing, rewarding hobby--but it demands that you put the work in. And some money...always a bit more money. I've been brewing for thirty years and I'm still adding a bit more money. That said, there is a hump. My "a bit more money's" these days are of the $10 variety.

Chill and learn your system's baseline for now. Enjoy any beer flavored beverages your system happens to produce and keep taking scrupulous records while your learn.
These are all great points. Two additional points I would consider:

-simplify your setup the first few times. Use malt extract, and brew a more forgiving beer like a pale ale. Hazys are brutal, lots of things can go wrong and you will be disappointed.

-brew smaller batches. I love my 2-gallon setup because it lets me iterate on recipes quickly without having to go through so much volume.

-as long as the beer isn’t fouled, drink a few ounces and really think about how it tastes. It rare to find bad commercial beers (they tend to disappear fast), so it’s worthwhile to learn from your suboptimal brew. I myself have gone through many, many of these.
 
That's a great point. ~160F, at least on my rig, no matter the size of the beer, is kinda always the strike temp.

I've only fly sparged, batched, then returned to fly sparging. Why don't AIO brewers with their automated temp control features strike cold, then let the gizmo bring it up to their desired sach temp? It's an old Belgian technique that I've emulated in the past on my rig. I get that it'll take a while longer, but there are benefits to the practice, especially when you consider that AIO brewers tend to struggle with efficiency, and it's not like AIO brewers need to hover over their mashes due to the temp control feature. Maybe give it a stir every 15mins or so?
So, the Amazon seller had calculated that the grain addition would result in a roughly 10-15 degree drop in temperature. When I mentioned I’d also be adding in a mash tun that was not preheated, he had a calculator he ran that suggested more like 15-20 degrees drop. Ultimately the AIO system can be set to various temps so once I preheated the strike water to 172.9 I then added the non heated grain and mash tun and dropped the temp to 154 which it got to in probably 5 min or so. I could see it being a safer bet the next time around to go to say 160 and just keep the mash tun in the water while it’s warming up therefore only the grain reduces the temperatures. Worst case, if it drops it to 150, the AIO can raise temp fairly fast a few degrees.
 
In terms of software, I use Beersmith. Its competitor, Brewer's Friend, has a reputation for being very user friendly and subsequently is gaining market share. I've mucked around with Brewer's Friend and think it's a bit of a toy, but reasonable brewers can reasonably disagree about that point. Personally, I prefer Beersmith because I think it's a much more powerful tool, but it takes more effort to get it running. I coach new brewers with some regularity and I steer them toward Beersmith because it forces them to really learn their systems. It's painful at first, but it quickly pays dividends. That said, they're both quite good. You can't go wrong with either--but it should be noted that Beersmith is written for and used by actual breweries. But I suppose Brewer's Friend has been around long enough that I'm sure there are a few breweries that use it.

The dry run with water does not include the mash, that simply establishes your boil off rate. To do that, you use a trusted vessel/method to place your target pre-boil volume into the kettle. You then boil for your target time, then cool the water to ~room temp and measure the difference. You then plug those numbers into your software and you have a raw approximation of your boil off rate. That's a big help, it allows your software to figure out what your pre-boil gravity needs to be to achieve your target post-boil gravity. In turn, this allows your software to predict the amount of malt you'll need to achieve your target OG. This is good because, as a new brewer, the bulk of your inefficiencies will be found in your mash tun and it will allow you to focus your efforts toward becoming more efficient on that critical point. Going forward you're going to spend the bulk of your time trying to figure out why your pre-boil gravity/volume doesn't match your predicted pre-boil gravity/volume. Once you have that sorted, you're actually brewing. To isolate that, though, you first have to establish your boil off rate. Everything is connected and it's infuriatingly complicated--get used to it.

Regarding your strike (that is, mixing your grains with water), don't worry too much about high heat while you're striking. Yeah, you're going to kill a few enzymes, but you'll have more than enough available to get the job done. You don't need to worry about that unless you wildly overshoot your mash temp--160F+. Just keep gently stirring. The more you keep mixing the water with the grist, the more even the heat transfer will be. There's a lot more to it than that, and many more techniques, but you'll be fine if you just do it slow and keep stirring. Back in the olden days I used to heat up my strike volume to ~180F and literally just dumped it into my mash tun, then started stirring. Frankly, I'd never do that today! But I made some rather pasable beer with that butcherous technique. Just remember, the malt desperately wants to become beer and you've gotta really screw the pooch to keep that from happening. Whatever you're doing is likely perfectly fine.

Lastly, here are a few screenshots of the data I collect in my Beersmith notes tab--I appologize about any naughty language, but this is my mind while brewing. My primary concerns revolve around pH, gravity, and volume. My system is very much dialed in, so my notes are quite short. As a beginning brewer, you might have a lot more to say. Mark any questions you have, mark any frustrations you may have, and certainly congratulate yourself for any triumphs you achieve! It's a slow, frustrating hobby. Be certain to celebrate your wins, no matter how small!
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I hope you found that useful, feel free to hit me up if you have further questions.

Stick with it! It's worth it.
Thanks - I think it’s also worth mentioning I have a recirculating pump that funnels wort from the bottom back to the top and over a grain mesh that sits atop the mash tun. So that was circulating and keeping my temperatures in a fairly tight range. At times the hose got a bit clogged and it slowed but I would just stir the mash from bottom up with a spatula and that usually did the trick.
 
Unasked and probably unwanted. But I have to make my PSA for the day.

Wear shoes when working with hot liquids!
It was an 7:30-8:00am start- I rolled out of bed, changed the baby’s diaper, handed her to my wife and went to the basement to start getting the water to temp 😅 at no point did I bother putting on shoes. (And yes, I had forewarned my wife about my brew day schedule!) haha
 
Update: Hydrometer is showing 1.03 on the dot. So given I started at a 1.051 we are talking about a sub 3% beer at this point. Any suggestions?
 
Any suggestions?
If your problem was denaturing the mash enzymes because the strike water was too hot, then alpha amylase might help. And if all else fails, glucoamylase will convert every last bit of remaining complex unfermentable dextrin to fermentable simple sugars. The latter is a pretty drastic step though - you'll wind up with a FG <1.

edit - FTR, I am not convinced that you denatured the mash enzymes so exogenous enzymes might not help.
 
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While I agree that something went awry with the mash and efficiency took a major hit, I plugged the kit ingredients into my software and on a really good day with my system, it only predicts an OG of 1.060 and estimated FG of 1.017 @ 5.8% ABV. The kit predicts 1.068 and 1.018 for 6.8% ABV. I think if the OP can get the system dialed in for a desirable dough in temp things will get better. I would be very suspicious of the crush in this particular kit too. A lot of things may have happened with this brew. I don’t believe the fermentation “stalled”, the yeast just quickly ate what little sugar there was available.
 
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While I agree that something went awry with the mash and efficiency took a major hit, I plugged the kit ingredients into my software and on a really good day with my system, it only predicts an OG of 1.060 and estimated FG of 1.017 @ 5.8% ABV. The kit predicts 1.068 and 1.018 for 6.8% ABV. I think if the OP can get the system dialed in for a desirable dough in temp things will get better. I would be very suspicious of the crush in this particular kit too. A lot of things may have happened with this brew. I don’t believe the fermentation “stalled”, the yeast just quickly ate what little sugar there was available.
I still don’t think my mash temperature was far off because when I dumped the grain and put the cold basket into the strike water, it dropped to the mash temp range fairly quickly. If that few minutes killed all the potential fermentability, that’s interesting.

Curious- assuming the sugars were all fermented and this is peaked right now sub 3% ABV, would there be any way to add alcohol by putting sugar into the fermentation or anything along those lines? I took a larger sample today for the hydrometer and it looks, smells and tastes like beer. I was actually pleasantly surprised. Just not looking to bottle 2.7% beers.
 
I preheated the strike water to 172.9 I then added the non heated grain and mash tun and dropped the temp to 154 which it got to in probably 5 min or so.
I have absolutely no experience in AIO systems, but I have never heated my water above 160° and when I dough in the grains, I get to my mash temp in around 30+ seconds. “5 minutes or so” is way to long at elevated temps. Poor grain crush can also have a major impact on mash efficiency. I think there are just a lot of variables happening here that are hard to pinpoint.
 
While I agree that something went awry with the mash and efficiency took a major hit, I plugged the kit ingredients into my software and on a really good day with my system, it only predicts an OG of 1.060 and estimated FG of 1.017 @ 5.8% ABV. The kit predicts 1.068 and 1.018 for 6.8% ABV. I think if the OP can get the system dialed in for a desirable dough in temp things will get better. I would be very suspicious of the crush in this particular kit too. A lot of things may have happened with this brew. I don’t believe the fermentation “stalled”, the yeast just quickly ate what little sugar there was available.
Makes sense- thank you. I was looking up the grain size on the impact to the beer and came across this case study. Interestingly had no big impact when going from slightly more course to super fine. I posted a video of the grains a few pages back from this kit. Do you think the grains were too course?

https://brulosophy.com/2017/01/09/m...ize-on-a-moderate-og-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks!
Austin
 
It’s really hard to tell from the video what the grains looked like. It appears there could have been some whole kernels, but again, really hard to see. As a general rule, the finer the crush, the faster the conversion and the higher the efficiency with regards to BIAB (which is how I brew). I thought the AIO systems were similar, but I could be mistaken. Someone with experience with one of those will probably be able to offer better insight. A courser crush takes longer to convert. There is a way to test if mash conversion is complete using iodine, but I can’t tell you exactly how to do it.
 
It’s really hard to tell from the video what the grains looked like. It appears there could have been some whole kernels, but again, really hard to see. As a general rule, the finer the crush, the faster the conversion and the higher the efficiency with regards to BIAB (which is how I brew). I thought the AIO systems were similar, but I could be mistaken. Someone with experience with one of those will probably be able to offer better insight. A courser crush takes longer to convert. There is a way to test if mash conversion is complete using iodine, but I can’t tell you exactly how to do it.
Thanks- any ideas if it’s possible to increase the ABV in the wort fermenting? Has anyone ever added sugar or done anything incremental to try to save it?
 
Has anyone ever added sugar or done anything incremental to try to save it?
You can add sugar and (assuming that it ferments) it will increase the ABV of your beer. But it won't do anything about the 30 gravity points of (apparently) unfermentable stuff that's still in there. As I said above, you could try adding enzymes. Other members here have had success with that approach. Search the forums if you want to read about their experiences.
 
Quick update- I went and bought some Povidone Iodine and diluted it 10:1 with water. I did a bit more than a few drops to really see the result. I am left further unsure though because I noticed a little squid black inkyness when I stir it in but it turns back to the color of the beer for the most part. What would people think based on this video? Still has unfermentable starches or all good?
 

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You are getting a ton of info from many folks that are really in the know about this. I have read thru most and I will only add, keep going!!! Try it again and make a few changes. I would probably start with the mash in temp of the water. While I don't know how much anything affects anything, I once posted on another board about temps and was told by a member, who I think is very knowledgeable, that the first 15 to 20 mins is where most of the conversion happens. In my case, I got really hot towards the end of the mash and he basically said it was not a huge deal at the end, but at the start it gets a bit more concerning.

My takeaway from all of this, you are new to all of this and there are a lot of ways to make beer. Keep doing it, you will figure out what works best for you and you will find your rhythm. Once you get that, you are gold.

Rock on!!!!!!
 
Quick update- I went and bought some Povidone Iodine and diluted it 10:1 with water. I did a bit more than a few drops to really see the result. I am left further unsure though because I noticed a little squid black inkyness when I stir it in but it turns back to the color of the beer for the most part. What would people think based on this video? Still has unfermentable starches or all good?
I went and did this again with a white paper plate and less beer and it was not turning immediately black. Tried different dilution levels to the Iodine and still just blended in. I almost was hoping it HAD turned black because atleast then I could point to a poor mash as the reason for the high FG. I am lost now… two packs of yeast pitched. No starches present. Very odd that it has stalled at 1.03 SG from a 1.051 OG. At this point, only thing I can think of to get the ABV up would be to add sugar. The enzyme suggestion seems like it wouldn’t help given the iodine test.

Open to other suggestions! Thanks for all the help this far!
 
The enzyme suggestion seems like it wouldn’t help given the iodine test.
The iodine test, even if you did it at the right time, only tells you that the starches have been converted. It doesn't tell you exactly what they've been converted to. IOW, it doesn't tell you how fermentable your wort is. Most beer and ale yeasts can only ferment glucose, fructose, sucrose, maltose, and maltotriose, and some strains aren't very good at fermenting maltotriose. Except for diastatic strains, they can't ferment dextrins (carbohydrates with more than three sugar units). Mashing at higher temperatures tends to produce more dextrins and therefore less fermentable wort.
 
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The iodine test, even if you did it at the right time, only tells you that the starches have been converted. It doesn't tell you exactly what they've been converted to. IOW, it doesn't tell you how fermentable your wort is. Most beer and ale yeasts can only ferment glucose, fructose, sucrose, maltose, and maltotriose, and some strains aren't very good at fermenting maltotiose. Except for diastatic strains, they can't ferment dextrins (carbohydrates with more than three sugar units). Mashing at higher temperatures tends to produce more dextrins and therefore less fermentable wort.
Understood- I will give the Enzymes a shot as last effort. Would adding Enzymes 10 days in be too late?
 
Not too late - you will still have lots of active yeast.

But IMO, wait for the hydrometer test.

edit: missed 1.030 result.

You can choose to let it be a little thick/sweet, or try the enzyme. I'd personally just let it be what it is and experience what a high FG normal ABV beer is like.
 
Not too late - you will still have lots of active yeast.

But IMO, wait for the hydrometer test.
I posted above- hydrometer came yesterday and I got a 1.03 reading even. So I’m way off FG target and diff between gravities is only .021
 
I suppose that if you had two fermenters you could try splitting the batch - add half a pound of sugar to one half and a quarter teaspoon of alpha amylase to the other half. You know, for science.
 
I suppose that if you had two fermenters you could try splitting the batch - add half a pound of sugar to one half and a quarter teaspoon of alpha amylase to the other half. You know, for science.
Haha I’m not opposed to finding a bucket to makeshift as a fermenter but I’ll hold off on buying another Anvil until I get going a little longer. With the Alpha Amylase won’t I likely know within 48 hours if SG drops? And if it doesn’t, then it wouldn’t be too late to still add sugar, correct?

Is 1lb per 5 gallons usually the right dosing? What is the conversion factor for 1lb to ABV or Gravity points?
 
A pound of table sugar in five gallons would add about 9 points to the gravity and about 1.2% ABV to the beer after it's fermented. But as mentioned, it is not likely to change the final gravity. So your SG would go up from 1.03 to about 1.04 and then come back down to 1.03. You can use the brewer's friend recipe calculator to confirm that. Its major virtue compared to other (possibly better) software is that it's free for you to use online right now.
 
A pound of table sugar in five gallons would add about 9 points to the gravity and about 1.2% ABV to the beer after it's fermented. But as mentioned, it is not likely to change the final gravity. So your SG would go up from 1.03 to about 1.04 and then come back down to 1.03. You can use the brewer's friend recipe calculator to confirm that. Its major virtue compared to other (possibly better) software is that it's free for you to use online right now.
Thank you! So really best case- I’m maybe getting this thing to a 4% hazy ipa with potentially off flavors with the table sugar added. Might go the enzyme route first and cross my fingers
 
Not too late - you will still have lots of active yeast.

But IMO, wait for the hydrometer test.

edit: missed 1.030 result.

You can choose to let it be a little thick/sweet, or try the enzyme. I'd personally just let it be what it is and experience what a high FG normal ABV beer is like.
I mean- a 2.7% ish beer is barely a beer. Not sure that is worth having 50 bottles of.
 
You do realize that some people go to great lengths to do that on purpose, right? Just generally not at 1.030 FG.
I didn’t, no. I don’t think I’ve ever found a commercial beer under 4% really. Besides a few advertising that way. Especially if it has the character of a hazy IPA, ideally would like to aim for higher. I just ordered some enzymes so will see if that kick starts the fermentation tomorrow. If not, will sit on it and see how it tastes at the two week mark either way. Thanks all!
 
I didn’t, no. I don’t think I’ve ever found a commercial beer under 4% really. Besides a few advertising that way. Especially if it has the character of a hazy IPA, ideally would like to aim for higher. I just ordered some enzymes so will see if that kick starts the fermentation tomorrow. If not, will sit on it and see how it tastes at the two week mark either way. Thanks all!
There are tons of commercial beers under 4%. The lowest I think I've found for a hazy IPA was around 3.5% ABV, but I've seen commercial IPAs at 3% ABV and 3.3% ABV. If we get to styles that are traditionally under 4%, the English style of beer called "mild" is generally under 4% alcohol. The BJCP puts the alcohol range for a mild at 2.8% to 4.5% ABV, but most of the ones I see are in between 3% and 3.6%.

https://www.bjcp.org/beer-styles/11a-mild/

Then there are also traditional sour styles like Berliner Weisse that the BJCP puts the alcohol range at 2.8% to 3.8% ABV.

https://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/23/23A/berliner-weisse/

Or if you're more interested in a super famous, widely sold IPA that's under 4%, BrewDog's Dead Pony Club is 3.8% ABV.
 
As a quick update- 11/20 at 415pm I put a teaspoon of Amylase Enzyme powder into my 5 gallon fermenter. I did a quick test today and didn’t see any changes yet from spigot sample (didn’t open lid for hydrometer test). After researching a bit more, I am reading that Alpha Amylase won’t necessarily have much impact as it only breaks down starches into long chain sugars which still need to sometimes be broken down further for fermentation. If this is true, should I have used beta amylase enzyme? Rookie mistake probably but I bought whatever the person had linked earlier in this thread which was indeed alpha.

And yes… I realize at this point my beer is likely not even going to taste good but it’s all in the name of science and a learning experience for me!
 
It probably will have been good enough if you just accepted what you got. Or at least you'd know whether or not you initial mistakes made it a terrible beer or not. Now you won't really know whether it was going to be yuck from the start. Or if it was all the mucking around with it after the fact that made it good or bad tasting beer.

Alcohol only plays a small part in the taste and aroma of beer. You can have a enjoyable to drink beer at most any ABV level. May not be the beer you wanted it to be like, but it'd be beer.

I prefer not to muck around with beer once it's in the FV. That way I don't have the stuff I did to try and save it having to be included in the possible things that may have made it bad beer. And I can more easily fix the things I did wrong or poorly during the brewing of the future batches of beer.

It takes a while to get it all correct. Maybe even a half dozen of more brews to quit making the silly mistakes. And during that time you might change methods to one that more suits you instead of doing the methods another find easier for their circumstances.

If you ask us all how we do our mash, you'd probably get some significant differences. But we all claim to have brewed beer we like.
 
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I did a quick test today and didn’t see any changes yet from spigot sample (didn’t open lid for hydrometer test).
Stop opening the lid. You should be able to get enough for a hydrometer sample from the spigot.
After researching a bit more, I am reading that Alpha Amylase won’t necessarily have much impact as it only breaks down starches into long chain sugars which still need to sometimes be broken down further for fermentation.
This is not correct. Alpha amylase breaks (1→4)-α-D-glucosidic linkages in polysaccharides containing three or more (1→4)-α-linked D-glucose units. So it converts dextrins into things like glucose, maltose and maltotriose. All of those are fermentable. It can even convert maltotriose into glucose and maltose.

edit - try to just leave it alone for at least a week.
 
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It probably will have been good enough if you just accepted what you got. Or at least you'd know whether or not you initial mistakes made it a terrible beer or not. Now you won't really know whether it was going to be yuck from the start. Or if it was all the mucking around with it after the fact that made it good or bad tasting beer.

Alcohol only plays a small part in the taste and aroma of beer. You can have a enjoyable to drink beer at most any ABV level. May not be the beer you wanted it to be like, but it'd be beer.

I prefer not to muck around with beer once it's in the FV. That way I don't have the stuff I did to try and save it having to be included in the possible things that may have made it bad beer. And I can more easily fix the things I did wrong or poorly during the brewing of the future batches of beer.

It takes a while to get it all correct. Maybe even a half dozen of more brews to quit making the silly mistakes. And during that time you might change methods to one that more suits you instead of doing the methods another find easier for their circumstances.

If you ask us all how we do our mash, you'd probably get some significant differences. But we all claim to have brewed beer we like.
Yea- I did taste the beer a few days ago at the one week mark and it wasn’t half bad! I wouldn’t say it was a home run but bit of a watered down hazy ipa. I didn’t feel super confident on taste profile to bottle it up at 2.7% ABV and for me, I do prefer a bit of a stronger ABV. To each their own though.
 
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