Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

[DrunkleJon]

I think it's more of a blowoff tube of sorts

 

[crane]

Why do you need the spear for pressure fermenting?

The first is to have a small blow off vessel. The second is to be able to watch bubbles for a visual indication of how fermentation is going.

 

[Tegra]

If you don't mind using Fermcap you can fill almost all the way to the top and still not have any blowoff. (At least in my experience with moderate brews)

Tom

 

[crane]

If you don't mind using Fermcap you can fill almost all the way to the top and still not have any blowoff. (At least in my experience with moderate brews)

Tom

I totally agree, but it is an extra piece of insurance. I did forget the fermcap one time and this saved me from having to buy another PRV.

 

[wbarber69]

The filter_housing can be bought on amazon.



The MFL_fittings are from McMaster.



Yes I paid more for the flare fittings than I did for the filter housing. Still comes out cheaper than the filter Midwest supplies is selling (not to mention the fact that midwest screwed up the last 3 orders I placed with them so I am boycotting them from now on). I have a number of hoses for transfers, fermenting, etc. so having everything be a flare fitting is convenient for reuse of hoses.



The spear is cut down from a keg that I cut the top off for a boil kettle. I cut the spear down with a pipe cutter, which turned out to help make a good seal. The spear slides over the center part of the top that holds the filters in place. The uncut end was snug and fit well, but wasn't air tight. The first time I used it no bubbles were pushed through the water. The other end was curved in from the pipe cutter, so I used some needle nose pliers to widen it a bit and then I was able to barely fit it over the end of the center part of the top. A couple of persuasive taps with a hammer and it was bottomed out and was air tight. It works great as a pressure air lock. It saved my spunding valve on one fermentation as I had 6 gallons in a 7.5 gallon sanke and forgot to put fermcap in. A few inches of blow off made it into the airlock that time. I generally use fermcap and that does a good job of keeping the krausen from leaving the keg. I'll post a picture of it in action when I get a chance.



I have also removed the spear to use the filter housing for filtering beer and the spear is still air tight after reinstalling it. I'm sure if I remove and replace it continuously, it will eventually fail to be air tight. When that time comes I will just pay another $16 for a new filter housing.

I wasn't advocating that anyone buy from Midwest. Just noting that the filter housing model needed was no longer available for purchase off the shelf in any of the places that used to carry them. Till you posted this link to Amazon I haven't seen anywhere else to buy them other than homebrew supplies.

 

[jonofthedead]

So just wanted to say a big thank you to Mad Scientist and WortMonger and everyone else on this thread! I have my first ferment underway (which is actually my first batch in over 5 years) in two 5 gal corny's using the spunding valve from the original post.

I am following MS's pressure schedule from a bunch of posts back with a few changes due to technical difficulties getting the kegs to seal up front (i unfortunately didn't see the posts about keg lube and seal until Day2):

Day 1 (0 - 24 hours) - 0 PSI @ 72 F
Day 2 (24 -26 hours) 4 PSI
Day 2 (26 -27 hours) 5 PSI
(turned knob 3 times)
Day 2 (27 - 42 hours) 9 PSI
(turned down til 7 PSI)
Day 2 (42+) 7 PSI

Future plan
Day 3 - 7 PSI
Day 4 - 7 PSI
Day 5 - 7 PSI
Day 6 - 7 PSI
Check Gravity, if over 60% finished begin raising the pressure)
Day 7 - 12 PSI
Day 7 - 16 PSI
Day 8 - 20 PSI
Check Gravity, if over 80% finished, remove the spunding valve to being carb)
Day 10 - check pressure to release to around 20/25 PSI
check Gravity and once over 90% start crash chill

two main differences (that I planned at least) is that I am fermenting at the top temp limit for my yeast (72/73 F). From what I have read on this thread it seems the higher pressure is supposed to forgive for a higher temp (though I couldn't find an example that tried higher than normal temps on an ale) and since I didn't have my fermenting chamber up and running yet though this would be a good chance to test that.

The other difference is my finish cold crash, I think others have gotten away with only doing a few days (I have seen some talking about grain to glass in 14 days so only a day or so of cold crash). What is everyone's experience here?

If I get within 80% completion of primary by Day 8 how long should leave the fermenter "capped" before cold crash? should I wait until around 90% done before cold crash?

And then once I am cold crashing how long before counter pressure transfer to the serving keg? Is 1-2 days enough to allow for clearing or should I go longer?

Once again thanks and will keep everyone posted!

 

[crane]

So just wanted to say a big thank you to Mad Scientist and WortMonger and everyone else on this thread! I have my first ferment underway (which is actually my first batch in over 5 years) in two 5 gal corny's using the spunding valve from the original post.

I am following MS's pressure schedule from a bunch of posts back with a few changes due to technical difficulties getting the kegs to seal up front (i unfortunately didn't see the posts about keg lube and seal until Day2):

Day 1 (0 - 24 hours) - 0 PSI @ 72 F
Day 2 (24 -26 hours) 4 PSI
Day 2 (26 -27 hours) 5 PSI
(turned knob 3 times)
Day 2 (27 - 42 hours) 9 PSI
(turned down til 7 PSI)
Day 2 (42+) 7 PSI

Future plan
Day 3 - 7 PSI
Day 4 - 7 PSI
Day 5 - 7 PSI
Day 6 - 7 PSI
Check Gravity, if over 60% finished begin raising the pressure)
Day 7 - 12 PSI
Day 7 - 16 PSI
Day 8 - 20 PSI
Check Gravity, if over 80% finished, remove the spunding valve to being carb)
Day 10 - check pressure to release to around 20/25 PSI
check Gravity and once over 90% start crash chill

two main differences (that I planned at least) is that I am fermenting at the top temp limit for my yeast (72/73 F). From what I have read on this thread it seems the higher pressure is supposed to forgive for a higher temp (though I couldn't find an example that tried higher than normal temps on an ale) and since I didn't have my fermenting chamber up and running yet though this would be a good chance to test that.

The other difference is my finish cold crash, I think others have gotten away with only doing a few days (I have seen some talking about grain to glass in 14 days so only a day or so of cold crash). What is everyone's experience here?

If I get within 80% completion of primary by Day 8 how long should leave the fermenter "capped" before cold crash? should I wait until around 90% done before cold crash?

And then once I am cold crashing how long before counter pressure transfer to the serving keg? Is 1-2 days enough to allow for clearing or should I go longer?

Once again thanks and will keep everyone posted!

Here is my general schedule, but by no means is it "the way to go". I use big yeast starters a d oxygenate the wort so fermentation is usually mostly done within 3 to 4 days of pitching yeast. I start out at 3-7psi for the first 24 hours. Then bump up to 10-12 for the next 24. On day 3 depending on how many bubbles are passing through my water filter airlock, I will either bump up to 15psi for another day or go straight to 30psi.

I then let it sit for the remainder of the week until day 7, then I cold crash for a week. On day 14 I transfer to the serving kegs and start to enjoy.

If I do any dry hopping, that happens at day 7. I usually dry hop for 7 days, then cold crash.

If I am brewing a beer that will be served on nitro the max and final pressure is 8psi, so after the first 24 hours I set it to 8 and keep it there for the rest of the fermentation.

For your schedule you may be waiting too long to ramp up for final carbonation, but it depends on how big and how healthy your army of yeast is.

 

[jonofthedead]

For your schedule you may be waiting too long to ramp up for final carbonation, but it depends on how big and how healthy your army of yeast is.

Yeah, my beer is just an american pale ale, OG was 1.06 final should be around 1.014 according to brewers friend. I am using BRY-97 for the yeast pitched dry (under recommendation from my LHBS). It has been a while since I have used a dry yeast so maybe I should ramp it up and start pushing the pressure on Day 3-4?

in any case I will be checking the hydro reading tonight!

 

[Tegra]

I usually use Nottingham and it can finish quite fast especially with a lower gravity beer. After a few days the show can be over.

As soon as the fermentation begins in earnest I turn up the pressure every few hours to get to the max pressure (about 25) fairly quickly so I can "store" the co2 in the side kegs for later carbonating.

Last Centennial Blonde, I was a bit late and didn't collect enough so had to draw from the tank.

Tom

 

[jonofthedead]

Yup so Crane you were definitely right for my case, checked the hydro reading last night and I am already at 1.02 (FG should be 1.015), man that was fast!

I turned up my spunding valve to 10 PSI last night and again gave it a few turns this morning in hopes to getting to at least 15 (but really would like to make it to 20). Tonight I will pull the valve off and then let it go for a couple of days, check the reading again and then hopefully we will be cold crashing by the weekend!

 

[jonofthedead]

So checked my hydro again on my APA tonight and it appears to still be at 1.02. Since my last post I capped the fermenter and my pressure is up to about 17psi and holding.

I find it odd that my gravity reading hasn't changed at all in the day and now my pressure is holding but I am not at my final gravity (1.015)

How long should I wait on getting to my estimated (Brewers friend) FG until I chalk it up to "bad efficiency in my partial mash process" and the last .005 won't ferment?

Also should I push the psi up to get to my carb before or after cold crash?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[1MadScientist]

So checked my hydro again on my APA tonight and it appears to still be at 1.02. Since my last post I capped the fermenter and my pressure is up to about 17psi and holding.

I find it odd that my gravity reading hasn't changed at all in the day and now my pressure is holding but I am not at my final gravity (1.015)

How long should I wait on getting to my estimated (Brewers friend) FG until I chalk it up to "bad efficiency in my partial mash process" and the last .005 won't ferment?

Also should I push the psi up to get to my carb before or after cold crash?

Thanks again for the help.

From what I can tell you are only at day #4, is that right?

These days, I find myself using a fermentation schedule very similar to lamarguy.

Using this technique, my ales (< 1.070) are on a 14 day schedule but I can see a lager (< 1.060) requiring an additional 1 - 2 weeks of lagering (~45F (45 °F = 7.2 °C)) time before its flavor is "ideal". Notice that I halved the recommended lagering time based on the assumption the pressured fermented beer has a lower overall ester profile.
Realistically, 21 - 28 days for a lager but still much shorter than 2 months.

I find myself fermenting and conditioning ales for 2 - 3 weeks with a generic pressure schedule:
Day 1 - 1 PSI (1 psi = 6.89 KPa)
Day 2 - 2 PSI (2 psi = 13.8 KPa)
Day 3 - 6 PSI (6 psi = 41.4 KPa)
Day 4 - 9 PSI (9 psi = 62.1 KPa)
Day 5+ - 12 PSI (12 psi = 82.7 KPa)
The low pressure (1 - 2 PSI (2 psi = 13.8 KPa)) for the first 48 hours is to allow for normal yeast growth. After that, crank it up.

The one beer that is fixing to come out is a Dead Guy, came in low at a 1.059 OG. This schedule WAS;

Day 1 - 0 psi @ 65F
Day 2 - +28 hours 1 psi
Day 2 - +32 hours 4 psi
Day 6 - 6 psi
Day 9 - start d-rest @ house temperature
turned knob 2 turns, 72F @ 10.5 psi
Day 10 - turned knob 1 turn, 74F @ 12.5 psi
Day 10 - turned knob 1 1/2 more turns
Day 16 - 75F @ 16 psi
Day 16 - crash chill started
dropped to 55F @ 15 psi
dropped to 45F @ 13.5 psi
dropped to 33F @ 7 psi
Day 24 - past due to pressure transfer to serving keg (today 10-01-2015)


In summary, I take about 9 days at a controlled temp, then 7 days at a d-rest temp, then 7 days at 33F temp.


jonofthedead - I recommend some schedule like this for your 1.060 IPA.

MS

 

[1MadScientist]

so just wanted to say a big thank you to mad scientist and wortmonger and everyone else on this thread! ..........

..........

The other difference is my finish cold crash, i think others have gotten away with only doing a few days (i have seen some talking about grain to glass in 14 days so only a day or so of cold crash). What is everyone's experience here?

If i get within 80% completion of primary by day 8 how long should leave the fermenter "capped" before cold crash? Should i wait until around 90% done before cold crash?

And then once i am cold crashing how long before counter pressure transfer to the serving keg? Is 1-2 days enough to allow for clearing or should i go longer?

Once again thanks and will keep everyone posted!

As with all my brews (and the one referenced on page 181 and 187), I make sure I'm at final gravity before starting a crash chill.

As WortMonger states, "the pressure will drop naturally with a temperature drop, so just crash chill and let the pressure settle itself". By 48 hours your finished beer will be at a stable temp and the new lower pressure.

On post #1 here, I have summarized what I feel like are the highlights of THIS THREAD; http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1933&start=0

MS

Cheers !

 

[jonofthedead]

From what I can tell you are only at day #4, is that right?

Yeah I was on day 5 when I wrote this. Sorry looks like I need to RDWHAHB as its day 7 and I hit my FG today. Gonna give it another day or two to be sure.

Quick question, since I didn't follow the last schedule posted (I'm a total newb) I am currently at 22PSI. Do you guys think I should slowly get it down to 15PSI BEFORE crashing to prevent over carbing or should I be ok and lowering the temp should work the pressure out?

 

[1MadScientist]

At what temperature?, even at a room temperature at 22 psi, you should be fine. Just, when you are ready, crash chill it first, then see what psi it settles at.

 

[crane]

Yeah I was on day 5 when I wrote this. Sorry looks like I need to RDWHAHB as its day 7 and I hit my FG today. Gonna give it another day or two to be sure.

Quick question, since I didn't follow the last schedule posted (I'm a total newb) I am currently at 22PSI. Do you guys think I should slowly get it down to 15PSI BEFORE crashing to prevent over carbing or should I be ok and lowering the temp should work the pressure out?

No if you are at 70F then 22psi will be 2.1 volumes of CO2. This is slightly on the low side for normal carb levels.

If you drop it down to 15psi then you will need to bump up the carb level with your CO2 tank.

Either way if I do over-carb during fermentation I wait until a couple of days into cold crashing before I lower the pressure. By the end of the week of cold crashing I will be at the level I want to be.

 

[thekraken]

So the wiki article linked in the original post seems to be gone. I think I've gleaned most of the details from the thread but I just couldn't read all 2,200 posts! So I have a few questions and I apologize of these have already been discussed over and over:

1) Anyone have a link to a working wiki article or the most current methods?

2) When following a schedule, like in post #2201 just above, how do you set those pressures? It was my understanding that you initially overpressure then carefully dial back the relief valve to come *down* to the pressure you want..?

3) If we are going to carb at ferm temps we'd need >=30psi, shouldn't we get a higher capacity relief valve? like the mcmaster 0.5-60psi? Or are we most always going to just be partial carbonation using this process?

4) In the end if we push the finished beer to another serving keg, and possibly carbonating a bit more, are we still saving bottled co2 vs fully force carbing and serving from the same vessel?

 

[crane]

So the wiki article linked in the original post seems to be gone. I think I've gleaned most of the details from the thread but I just couldn't read all 2,200 posts! So I have a few questions and I apologize of these have already been discussed over and over:

1) Anyone have a link to a working wiki article or the most current methods?

2) When following a schedule, like in post #2201 just above, how do you set those pressures? It was my understanding that you initially overpressure then carefully dial back the relief valve to come *down* to the pressure you want..?

3) If we are going to carb at ferm temps we'd need >=30psi, shouldn't we get a higher capacity relief valve? like the mcmaster 0.5-60psi? Or are we most always going to just be partial carbonation using this process?

4) In the end if we push the finished beer to another serving keg, and possibly carbonating a bit more, are we still saving bottled co2 vs fully force carbing and serving from the same vessel?

2) I start with my relief valve all the way off and give it a few turns. After 6-8 hours of pitching yeast I see where it is at and dial it up to get where I want. I use the black plastic PRV from McMaster so it is about a few psi per turn of the dial.

3) yes I don't use the 0-15psi valve that you are referring to, so I am able to dial it all the way up to 30 to fully carb. I think some people with the 0-15psi PRV will disconnect the valve at the end, but that can be a little dangerous is you do this too soon and get way past 30psi.

4) I generally shoot for a little over 30psi so after cold crashing and transferring I'm at my serving pressure. Even if you have to gain a few psi from your tank you will still be saving a most of the CO2 that would be needed to fully force carb from a bottle.

 

[thekraken]

2) I start with my relief valve all the way off and give it a few turns. After 6-8 hours of pitching yeast I see where it is at and dial it up to get where I want. I use the black plastic PRV from McMaster so it is about a few psi per turn of the dial.

Okay, sounds good. Sounds like it takes a little tweaking but nothing to worry about.

3) yes I don't use the 0-15psi valve that you are referring to, so I am able to dial it all the way up to 30 to fully carb. I think some people with the 0-15psi PRV will disconnect the valve at the end, but that can be a little dangerous is you do this too soon and get way past 30psi.

I was actually referring to the 30psi valve. My thought *was* that if our max setting for the gauge was 30psi then how do we know we are really at the correct psi. I see the error in my ways now: the valve maxes out at ... you guessed it ... 30psi. I guess my mistake here stems from my general aversion to using equipment at its limits. I got antsy and already ordered the McMaster 30psi version so I guess that's what I'll be using anyway.

4) I generally shoot for a little over 30psi so after cold crashing and transferring I'm at my serving pressure. Even if you have to gain a few psi from your tank you will still be saving a most of the CO2 that would be needed to fully force carb from a bottle.

To elaborate on what I was asking which is greater:

• gas consumed to push to the serving keg under pressure
• gas consumed to force carbonate

I'm wondering what the actual trade off is here. Has anybody weighed their co2 tanks to actually see how much gas is used to serve a keg, transfer between kegs under pressure, and how much is used to force carb one?

 

[WortMonger]

I took a lot of time making that wiki article, wish they would get it working. I have tried numerous times and it's been down for years now.

 

[thekraken]

I took a lot of time making that wiki article, wish they would get it working. I have tried numerous times and it's been down for years now.

I dug this up, maybe you could use it to restore the wiki:

https://web.archive.org/web/2013052...ex.php/Closed-system_pressurized_fermentation

 

[thekraken]

I tried searching this thread but either it's never been discussed or the search function just isn't working.

How you all dry hop? I can't think of how you would do it without oxygen exposure. Would you just add the dry hops before fermentation is complete so the added oxygen can hopefully be scrubbed out?

 

[clarkpadgett]

I tried searching this thread but either it's never been discussed or the search function just isn't working.

How you all dry hop? I can't think of how you would do it without oxygen exposure. Would you just add the dry hops before fermentation is complete so the added oxygen can hopefully be scrubbed out?

I have one of those sabco fermenters with the 4" triclamp fitting on top. What I do is attach a 4" butterfly valve to the fermenter, A 6" long triclamp spool to the valve, then the cap with a ball lock valve on top of that. When I'm ready to dry hop, I close the butterfly valve, release the pressure above the valve and take the cap off. Hop pellets go in and the cap goes back on. The space above the valve is purged with co2 then pressurized back to the orignal pressure of the fermenter. Open the butterfly valve and the hop pellets fall into the beer and you're done. You should also be able to do this with a Brewhemoth.

 

[crane]

I tried searching this thread but either it's never been discussed or the search function just isn't working.

How you all dry hop? I can't think of how you would do it without oxygen exposure. Would you just add the dry hops before fermentation is complete so the added oxygen can hopefully be scrubbed out?

I bought some of those small Stainless steel screens that fits over the end of a corny liquid dip tube. After fermentation is done I add the hops to a second keg with the screen on it. Close it up and purge out the oxygen with CO2. Then I transfer from fermenting keg to dry hopping keg.

 

[acidrain]

I put the hops (in a stainless hop basket) in my serving keg, purge it with co2, then transfer under pressure to the serving keg.
I usually dry hop warm for 4 days, then chill & serve. Even if the keg lasts for weeks, I've never had an over-hopped, grassy beer. I think once you chill, the dry-hopping is slowed enough that it doesn't matter that the beer sits on the hops.

 

[traviswalken]

I just build a spunding valve to use on my 10 gal corny. I got a little over zealous transferring to the fermenter and have very little head space. I probably have a little over 9 gallons wort. I pitched the yeast (1028 London Ale) about 24 hours ago and it is actively fermenting.

I am worried about ruining my brand new spunding valve with blow off, so I added some fermcap s. I also don't have the valve attached. Instead, I am just using a blowoff.

When do you think it would be safe to attach the spunding valve? Maybe wait until fermentation starts to slow?

Thanks.

 

[Firewalker11]

I just build a spunding valve to use on my 10 gal corny. I got a little over zealous transferring to the fermenter and have very little head space. I probably have a little over 9 gallons wort. I pitched the yeast (1028 London Ale) about 24 hours ago and it is actively fermenting.

I am worried about ruining my brand new spunding valve with blow off, so I added some fermcap s. I also don't have the valve attached. Instead, I am just using a blowoff.

When do you think it would be safe to attach the spunding valve? Maybe wait until fermentation starts to slow?

Thanks.

Nah, I blew krausen out of all three of my spunding valves with no long term harm. Just take the pressure relief valve off, rinse it in hot water and dry it well. Wet pressure gauges and quick disconnects are rinsable as well.

I wait until I get past the rhino farts stage with the blow off tube to attach the spunding valve.

 

[Firewalker11]

I tried searching this thread but either it's never been discussed or the search function just isn't working.

How you all dry hop? I can't think of how you would do it without oxygen exposure. Would you just add the dry hops before fermentation is complete so the added oxygen can hopefully be scrubbed out?

I dry hop in a filter housing while I am filtering the beer under pressure from keg to keg. I dont like a lot of flavor from dry hops so this works well for me.

 

[crane]

I just build a spunding valve to use on my 10 gal corny. I got a little over zealous transferring to the fermenter and have very little head space. I probably have a little over 9 gallons wort. I pitched the yeast (1028 London Ale) about 24 hours ago and it is actively fermenting.

I am worried about ruining my brand new spunding valve with blow off, so I added some fermcap s. I also don't have the valve attached. Instead, I am just using a blowoff.

When do you think it would be safe to attach the spunding valve? Maybe wait until fermentation starts to slow?

Thanks.

What kind of valve are you using? If it's one of the brass ones then you can take it apart and clean in if it gets blow off in it.

If it's the black plastic one from McMaster then I would try to prevent anything from getting in there. I am on my second one of these valves as I forgot to add fermcap once and a bunch of blow off got in there. I tried running water through it to clean it out but I couldn't get it to hold any pressure above 10psi after that.

I would wait until you don't have any more gunk coming out of the blowoff before switching to the spunding valve.

With fermcap I don't have to use a blowoff tube at all. I start with the spunding valve on.

 

[traviswalken]

What kind of valve are you using? If it's one of the brass ones then you can take it apart and clean in if it gets blow off in it.

If it's the black plastic one from McMaster then I would try to prevent anything from getting in there. I am on my second one of these valves as I forgot to add fermcap once and a bunch of blow off got in there. I tried running water through it to clean it out but I couldn't get it to hold any pressure above 10psi after that.

I would wait until you don't have any more gunk coming out of the blowoff before switching to the spunding valve.

With fermcap I don't have to use a blowoff tube at all. I start with the spunding valve on.

Thanks. I reviewed some forum posts and was reminded of a good solution. I connected a sanitized keg between the fermenter and the spunding valve. The emplty keg will pick up blow off gunk. If it gets little or no gunk, I will use the purged keg as a serving keg for this batch.

I didn't buy the McMaster or a brass fitting. It's another option some have used from amazon. I don't know if it can be disassembled.