Cider Yeast Selection

[MarkKF]

I just kegged 5 gal. fresh pressed Apple juice/71b-1122. 2 weeks primary. 2 months secondary. Finished at 1.004 stabilized and backsweetened with 1 lb. orange blossom honey to 1.010

 

[hethacker]

Hey, nice thread, I have been making ciders, meads, and cysers for several years and I have always monitored the sugar level to taste and stopped fermentation through cold crashing, although I have let a few go all the way to 0.998, those being Montrachet, D-47, EC-118 in the past.

They were all cysers but the D-47 had the best blend of honey and apples,

EC-118 dried the cyser out completely, but I aged it for 4 months on elderberries and it turned out very smooth with a soft dark fruit fllavor and slight apple flavor.

Montrachet also dried out the apple flavor completely bringing out a stronger honey flavor from the cyser. I also added additional strawberries and mango to one of the Montrachet batches and that stood out over both the honey and the apple.

That being said, I normally stop my wines at around 1.008-1.012 through crashing and am currently experimenting on 71B-1122 and BM 4x4.

Again, These are ALL cyser recipes so other styles of cider or mead can vary the yeast profile:

The 71B-1122 is nice, florally finish that accentuates the apple flavor. The mouthfeel is smooth and close to water, so very quaffable. A very light, champagne like mouthfeel when carbonated. Final gravity is 1.009.

The BM 4x4 was even more interesting; I immediately had sulfur smells coming from this one, I read an article and added some more nutrients and the smell mostly went away. After about 8 days, and 2 days kegged, the sulfur smell went away completely. The flavor was about the same as 71B-1122 although a little less floral flavor and more towards a fruity flavor. The mouthfeel is rounded and balanced, and feels like there is something there that counteracts the tartness of the apples.

 

[MarkKF]

I had to look this up... quaffable. Adjective. (comparative more quaffable, superlative most quaffable) (informal, usually referring to wine) Easy to drink.

 

[bmd2k1]

I had to look this up... quaffable. Adjective. (comparative more quaffable, superlative most quaffable) (informal, usually referring to wine) Easy to drink.

Used to use quaf all the time when playing quarter bounce...since someone always made rule.... Couldn't say drink, drank, drunk [emoji111]

 

[bmd2k1]

Anyone try Enoferm M2 by Lallemand? (Doesn't seem to be widely available)

Dude in this article digs it:
https://byo.com/article/yeast-selection-for-cider/

 

[diyHardCider]

I just kegged 5 gal. fresh pressed Apple juice/71b-1122. 2 weeks primary. 2 months secondary. Finished at 1.004 stabilized and backsweetened with 1 lb. orange blossom honey to 1.010

@MarkKF And? How is it?

 

[MarkKF]

Still in the keg!

 

[deadwolfbones]

Making a sort of off-the-cuff cider with 2.5 gal preservative-free but filtered and pasteurized store-bought apple juice. Used the Crossmyloof Lille Saison, which has been presumed to be similar to Belle Saison, but may not be after all. Got a ton of sulfur during active fermentation, which seems to be tapering off now. Gravity is down from 1.048 to 1.003 or so after a week. Will give it a few more weeks to clean up before dry hopping with Apple Crisp & Huell Melon and bottling.

 

[johnnyseko]

So these are all bottled finally.

I'll update the final results once we line them up and taste, probably April.

Chilled and tasted, I'll have to try this whole thing over. I ran into a sulfur problem - which I've never had before. When I purchased the juice there was a delay with the yeast being delivered and I had to treat the cider before pitching because the cider sat for so long. Not sure if that assisted in the off flavors, but it didn't help. Maybe if I aged these a bit longer..... but I wanted to see what these would be as a quick turbo cider.

The Cotes yeast was clearly the best. The wild ferment second - although I think if I used Cotes yeast with the blend of apples on that batch it would be awesome. Cotes is clearly more of a wine result but taste was amazing. The other Ale yeasts might be better off aging for some time. I'll have to experiment further with these. Sorry this was a bust.

As far as aging goes - during this tasting we also tried a 6 month old gallon of 'Grahams English Cider' recipe made with Nottingham. I had notes from 3 months young that said it was trash....but now.....it might be one of the best I've made. Crazy. The experiments continue.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was slightly rushed on bottling day and completely forgot to save the yeast from the 'wild' ferment. Bummed, I pressed and blended my own apples with intent on saving the yeast if the result was good.

It's believed that a fair portion of flavor from wild cider fermentation comes from wild yeast Kloeckera spp. and possibly wild bacteria as well, very early in fermentation. These microbes do not survive the alcohol produced by Saccharomyces, so reusing the cake might not be that useful.

If you wanted to give it a try anyway, just use the bottle dregs to step up a culture... Your dominant Sacc strain should be fairly easy to wrangle.

 

[jinjorge]

I've tried T-58 which is supposedly the same strain as 3711 French Saison and Belle Saison and the result was very sulfury, but eventually became drinkable after some venting with CO2 and dropping in a piece of copper pipe for 2 days. Assuming Belle Saison is the same as T-58, then I would add a little yeast nutrient to avoid sulfurous odors from nutrient limitation.

Belle saison is known for producing a high level of glycerol during fermentation which adds to mouth feel. This would be beneficial in cider.

This turned out to be a hit for both the sweet cider and dry cider crowd. It was dry yet sweet on the backend from the pineapple juice. Lots of compliments, will definitely make again for the summer or late summer.

 

[z-bob]

This turned out to be a hit for both the sweet cider and dry cider crowd. It was dry yet sweet on the backend from the pineapple juice. Lots of compliments, will definitely make again for the summer or late summer.

What "this", the T-58 or Belle Saison?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've tried T-58 which is supposedly the same strain as 3711 French Saison and Belle Saison and the result was very sulfury, but eventually became drinkable after some venting with CO2 and dropping in a piece of copper pipe for 2 days. Assuming Belle Saison is the same as T-58

Assuming Belle and WLP590 are very close cousins - they're both diastaticus - then Belle is not even closely related to T-58, which the latest sequencing work puts in a completely different family of yeast along with the bread yeasts and some distilling yeasts. It's probably best to think of T-58 as a "Belgian" (POF+) cousin of Windsor and S-33. It does seem good for biotransformation, but at the cost of some overall hoppiness.

Oh, and it turns out WLP051 mentioned above is actually a lager yeast!

 

[dmtaylor]

Assuming Belle and WLP590 are very close cousins - they're both diastaticus - then Belle is not even closely related to T-58, which the latest sequencing work puts in a completely different family of yeast along with the bread yeasts and some distilling yeasts. It's probably best to think of T-58 as a "Belgian" (POF+) cousin of Windsor and S-33. It does seem good for biotransformation, but at the cost of some overall hoppiness.

Oh, and it turns out WLP051 mentioned above is actually a lager yeast!

T-58 is a bottle conditioning yeast. It was probably never intended as a full-fledged fermentation yeast.

I have serious doubts about WLP051 being a lager.

But we digress.

 

[z-bob]

T-58 is a bottle conditioning yeast. It was probably never intended as a full-fledged fermentation yeast.

I've never heard that before! It kind of makes sense tho'; high alcohol tolerance, low attenuation, and the POF+ wouldn't matter at that point.

I like T-58. But I have never tried it in cider. (I will try it someday) The only time I've had a cider with a farty fermentation (don't remember which yeast but I think it was a wine yeast) that went away almost immediately when I added a half dose of yeast nutrient.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

T-58 is meant to be used as the main production yeast at de Struise who make some world-class beers, the whole concept of specific bottling yeasts is a bit moot anyway, as they all started as production yeasts somewhere along the line. But it's genetically very different to the Group 2 wine yeasts that are generally used as bottling yeasts.

As for WLP051, this is what the latest White Labs catalogue says :

Typically leaves some residual, lager-like sulfur compounds in finished beer. Recent sequencing studies show that WLP051 belongs to Saccharomyces pastorianus species, the same hybrid species as most lager strains. However, this strain has been used to make ales for decades and was previously categorized as belonging to Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

It makes sense historically - BRY-96 (parent of Chico, a known ale strain) and BRY-97 (supposedly the origin of WLP051) both came from Ballantine's who had separate ale and lager breweries.

 

[jinjorge]

What "this", the T-58 or Belle Saison?

"this" was referring to Belle Saison. should have been clearer in the post.....

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeasts mentioned on this thread as of June 8 2018

WLP775 - English Cider Yeast
"My favorite so far is WLP775.... left it with more body and apple flavor. It does have a stronger sulfur smell when it's fermenting, but it's not overwhelming." - ericbw
"excellent dry cider, drops out for a brilliantly clear beverage." - DaleP
"not a fan" - MarkKF
"This WLP775 is finishing low but the apple goodness is remaining. I am onboard with this strain for sure." - Morrey
"775...not a fan" - bmd2k1
"775 = Tastes like plastic." - paneubert

Wyeast 4766 - Cider
"excellent dry cider, drops out for a brilliantly clear beverage." - DaleP

Red Star Premier Cuvee
Leaves abundant apple flavor fermented at 68F. Finishes dry to semi-dry and very clean and neutral. Very well-behaved -- starter and/or blowoff unnecessary - RPh_Guy

Red Star Cotes de Blanc
"My favorite so far is Côte des Blancs." - z-bob
"Not only did it finish below 1.000, the apple goodness was basically gone." - Morrey
"strips out the apple character and doesn't impart any fruit character itself" - Albionwood
"I've tried nearly a dozen yeasts. Cote des Blancs is the best there is. It ferments slowly and preserves the apple character and some residual sweetness around 0.998, as opposed to many other yeasts that ferment fast and bone-dry down to 0.992." - dmtaylor
"The Cotes yeast was clearly the best. .... Cotes is clearly more of a wine result but taste was amazing." - johnnyseko

Vintner's Harvest - AW4
"The AW4 tasted and smelled like banana juice at bottling time, but that went away after a few weeks in the bottle; left a nice spicy apple flavor with just a little residual banana esters." - z-bob

Lalvin DV10

Lalvin R-HST (for ice cider)

Lalvin D47
"preserves the natural apple fruit character. fermented cold (<60F)" - Albionwood
"retains apple flavor, ferments well cold (48-52F) and produces a very high level of glycerol (for mouthfeel) compared to other wine yeasts. A good yeast for extended aging on lees, imparts complexity without off-flavors when aged cold." - ten80
"They were all cysers but the D-47 had the best blend of honey and apples" - hethacker

WLP Scottish Cider Yeast Blend
"The best yeast I have used to date is White Labs Scottish Cider yeast." - Drewed

Danstar Nottingham
"good" - MarkKF
"Nottingham is my goto yeast for cider." - gratus fermentatio
"tried a 6 month old gallon of 'Grahams English Cider' recipe made with Nottingham. I had notes from 3 months young that said it was trash....but now.....it might be one of the best I've made." - johnnyseko

EC-1118
"too dry" - MarkKF
"too dry (sub 0.999 FG) and strips some apple flavor" - ten80
"EC-118 dried the cyser out completely, but I aged it for 4 months on elderberries and it turned out very smooth with a soft dark fruit fllavor and slight apple flavor." - hethacker

S-04
"good" - MarkKF
"good for quick-finishing ciders that retain a clean, crisp, if perhaps tart flavor. Doesn't impart any beneficial fruity esters like D47. Ferments juice nicely at 50-55F once it gets started. May take 2-3 days to start in juice with a pH below 3.5." - ten80

71B
"pretty good" - MarkKF
"Stronger fermentor than D47, will ferment as cold as 46 F. Good for cysers and ciders with added sugars. Retains apple flavor maybe as well as D47. Attenuates to 1.000 or slightly below with most ciders." - ten80
"It should be noted that 71B has some Malic acid converting properties. Not as much as malolactic bacteria or anything, but some. This will produce a dry, but less acidic or slightly less tart cider." - smarch0
"It's good for reducing the acid level in "high acid" musts. But cider needs a bit of malic acid bite, along with tannins, for balance. The one time I used it in cider I was left with a flabby bland product that needed to have some acid put back in at bottling time. Kinda counter productive." - Maylar
"The 71B-1122 is nice, florally finish that accentuates the apple flavor. The mouthfeel is smooth and close to water, so very quaffable. A very light, champagne like mouthfeel when carbonated" - hethacker

Safcider
"very good results" - MarkKF

Brewer's Best Cider House select
"very good results" - MarkKF

S-33 Saflager
"my favorite has been S-33 Saflager yeast m very apple forward off dry cider" - wuyi_wulf
"tastes good, but the bottles aren't carbing. Maybe I let it clear *too* much." - z-bob

WLP720 Sweet Mead
"a great semi-sweet cider yeast. very clean cider with tons of apple character and enough residual sweetness (0.998 FG) to where my wife (who prefers sweet-sweet cider) loves it -- she drinks it more than I do, actually . Not nearly as active as [WLP002], but with some patience it will produce a wonderful (and clear!) cider." - jacobelong

US-05
"It is quite good." - dmtaylor
"US-05 - I like it." - jinjorge

WY1450
"I've tried a bunch of different yeast for cider over the last 20 years. Ale yeasts, wine yeasts, cider yeasts...my favorite after all of that is WY1450. Makes a very dry cider but leaves a bit of apple flavor behind." - Denny

WLP028
"I thought it was good, but not as good as Cote des Blancs." - dmtaylor

 

[RPh_Guy]

WLP002 (English Ale)
"very dry and left a strong yeast-bread flavor which I found quite unpleasant. I prefer my cider on the off-dry / semi-sweet side, though." - jacobelong
Winner of White Labs strain comparison. See here.
"002 = Good, maybe honey notes?" - paneubert

Red Star Montrachet
"strips out the apple character and doesn't impart any fruit character itself" - Albionwood
"I've tried Red Star Montrachet on my first cider - not a fan" - jinjorge
"Montrachet also dried out the apple flavor completely bringing out a stronger honey flavor from the cyser." - hethacker

Red Star Premier Blanc (Champagne Yeast)
"I've only done a few batches with premier blanc but have to give the thumbs down so far." - johnnyseko

Safale T-58
"Made a horribly sulfurous cider which a year later I am still trying to save. I fermented it around 65f which may have been too warm." - ten80

Belle Saison
"This turned out to be a hit for both the sweet cider and dry cider crowd. It was dry yet sweet on the backend from the pineapple juice." - jinjorge

R4600 wine yeast
"....nice pear-like esters in the finish. No H2S or other off flavors. I think this has potential...." - ten80

Q23 wine yeast
"...Nice crisp apple notes with light white wine-like esters. Cider is not thin, likely to due high glycerol production from the yeast. Finish is very pleasant and not overly-dry." - ten80

BM 4x4
"The BM 4x4 was even more interesting; I immediately had sulfur smells coming from this one, I read an article and added some more nutrients and the smell mostly went away. After about 8 days, and 2 days kegged, the sulfur smell went away completely. The flavor was about the same as 71B-1122 although a little less floral flavor and more towards a fruity flavor. The mouthfeel is rounded and balanced, and feels like there is something there that counteracts the tartness of the apples." - hethacker

 

[RPh_Guy]

Did anyone notice in that White Labs yeast comparison, they fermented (the winning) WLP002 yeast at 74-76F ... That must be a typo??

Also, I just recently bottled a batch made with 720. It was a burnt match sulfide mess that was probably my fault. It actually turned out fine with some aging and dropped clear, though the finish is a bit rough. I added blackberry flavor to a portion of it and that came out very good, surprisingly.
I'd give it another try with nutrients next time.

 

[Bryceshu]

This is a great thread. Loving the info. Im new to this forum and new to cider making. Iv got a 3 gallon batch going in secondary with Mangrove M02 yeast, a 1 gallon with ec-1118 in secondary- tastes very dry right now.. also have two 1 gallon batches going with Safale-04. They have only been in primary for 6 days and are bubbling away nicely and already look super clear.. but honestly I don't care about a hazy cider..(my favorite cider is the DownEast cider from Cambridge mass and they do an incredible unfiltered cider) I cant wait to taste those. Will update you guys once these batches are finished.

 

[z-bob]

I've made a second batch with S-33 (poured the apple juice onto the yeast cake in a beer secondary that didn't really have a lot of sediment) It worked very well, and it carbed just fine. Going to try T-58 next -- with yeast nutrient to avoid the sulfur problems ten80 reported; I think that was the problem rather than the temperature.

 

[VasDeferensly]

I've had good experience with K1-V1116 as it went very dry but kept a lot of apple flavor, it also dropped very clear. It tasted a bit sharp early on, but after about 4 months of age it really mellowed out. I didn't have temperature control at the time, and regretfully won't for this years pressing, but once I move in December I should be good to go. Ale yeasts haven't cleared as well as wine yeasts for me, and when they don't I definitely get some bready/yeasty flavors. I still like S-04 though for basic ciders. Montrachet and T-58 are both in the "never doing that again" category.

 

[venatorscribe]

I&#8217;ve had great luck with Mangrove Jack&#8217;s cider yeast. Great apple flavor and a touch of sweetness remains. I rarely backsweeten with fajc. I will sometimes add a touch of honey to backsweeten.
I&#8217;ve tried several dry wine yeasts and Notty and was not pleased with results (I&#8217;ll have to check my notes to see which). Last time I used Notty, the flavor and color were stripped away. It took a lot of fajc to tast decent.

Very much agree regarding your comment on Mangrove Jacks MO2 cider yeast. It ferments dry with a hint of sweetness remaining. It does throw out a strong sulfite odour. But it preserves the basic quality and taste of your fruit. It is an absolute work horse, having used it to ferment a number of different fruits. Pears, crab apples, quince and an unknown red grape. Have found it very reliable. As opposed to EC-1118 which strips out flavour and is more stinky. I have a strong suspicion that MO2 might be a rebrand of the White Labs P775 English cider yeast.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Lallemand Nottingham is the best yeast I've tried so far. Makes a nice quaffable cider.
Safale S-04 is quite good, but creates a bit lighter feel.

Both work well with Costco's Kirkland Signature not-from-concentrate juice.

 

[dinnerwitharturo]

Mangrove Jack M02 was mentioned awhile back but not making your list.
It should be #1.
Great apple flavor and delicious esters.
For the cider enthusiasts (not purists) I wanted to mention that I am having great results flavoring with this https://amoretti.com/collections/natural-artisan-flavors
Particularly the pineapple.
I've used 4 Oz per 5 gallons after primary fermentation ended, it started up for about a week longer then finished. You just can't get flavor like this messing with frozen fruit, concentrate etc.
Also used 4 Oz back sweetening one batch. Much prefer the secondary ferment method, with the Mangrove Jack's.

 

[bmd2k1]

Mangrove Jack M02 was mentioned awhile back but not making your list.
It should be #1.
Great apple flavor and delicious esters.
For the cider enthusiasts (not purists) I wanted to mention that I am having great results flavoring with this https://amoretti.com/collections/natural-artisan-flavors
Particularly the pineapple.
I've used 4 Oz per 5 gallons after primary fermentation ended, it started up for about a week longer then finished. You just can't get flavor like this messing with frozen fruit, concentrate etc.
Also used 4 Oz back sweetening one batch. Much prefer the secondary ferment method, with the Mangrove Jack's.

Curious....how well does it cold crash? How are the lees? Typical ferment days? Clarity?

Cheers! [emoji111][emoji111]

 

[dinnerwitharturo]

It's a super high flocculator.
Drops real clear in old crash. No gelatin necessary.
Pretty quick fermenter.
Just came back with a packet. Was gonna try something different, that's why I was looking on this thread.
But I can't complain about this yeast.
I recently brewed a Belgian wit with their wit yeast and it was a big hit.
Packet says made in UK. It's a NZ company.

 

[venatorscribe]

It's a super high flocculator.
Drops real clear in old crash. No gelatin necessary.
Pretty quick fermenter.
Just came back with a packet. Was gonna try something different, that's why I was looking on this thread.
But I can't complain about this yeast.
I recently brewed a Belgian wit with their wit yeast and it was a big hit.
Packet says made in UK. It's a NZ company.

I have to agree with you re MO2 cider yeast. I've been using it for a number of fruit and botanical wines and ciders. I suppose it has become my 'go to' yeast when I can't quite figure what style. I similarly have been trialling the Mangrove Jacks Belgian Tripel and French Saison yeast for the appropriate beers. And even used the Belgian Tripel yeast with a feijoa cider. I highly suspect they are picking the eyes out of the better known yeasts in the market and are rebranding. Only a suspicion - as I have on two occasions asked a couple of technical questions and the replies not only take for ever but are very scant on knowledge. But yes - I agree - their product is pretty pretty good, fresh and reliable.

 

[dinnerwitharturo]

I have to agree with you re MO2 cider yeast. I've been using it for a number of fruit and botanical wines and ciders. I suppose it has become my 'go to' yeast when I can't quite figure what style. I similarly have been trialling the Mangrove Jacks Belgian Tripel and French Saison yeast for the appropriate beers. And even used the Belgian Tripel yeast with a feijoa cider. I highly suspect they are picking the eyes out of the better known yeasts in the market and are rebranding. Only a suspicion - as I have on two occasions asked a couple of technical questions and the replies not only take for ever but are very scant on knowledge. But yes - I agree - their product is pretty pretty good, fresh and reliable.

I gotta credit my LHBS guy for turning me on to it.
In turn I introduced him to Amoretti.
My pineapple ciders have been preferred in blind tastings over Ace and Reverend Nats.
And I'm not using any fancy juice either.
It's the yeast.