Cider Yeast Selection

[AzOr]

Anyone try Enoferm M2 by Lallemand? (Doesn't seem to be widely available)

Dude in this article digs it:
https://byo.com/article/yeast-selection-for-cider/

I have not tried this yeast. However, I’m a big fan of Mangrove Jack’s M-02. I read somewhere that they are the same but can’t confirm.
The M-02 leaves lots of apple flavor and body compared to other yeast I’ve tried. Ferments fast and clean. I do use nutrients with all my ciders.

 

[SirHC_]

I'll second the M02.
I've only done a 1 gallon batch but was my best by far. Didn't add any sugar so it a relatively low abv. Left some light sweetness and lots of apple.
Better in cider than beer imho but needs some ageing. Just like a month or two.

 

[Albionwood]

I used M02 one year and made some good cider with it. My favorite though continues to be Lallemand D47, which creates a nice mouthfeel and doesn't strip out all the fruit character. It also tends to clear up well, unlike my other favorite, 71B (which partially metabolizes malic acid, rounding off some of the sharpness).

 

[wasully]

Bump.

I'm planning to make some 1-gal batches using various store-bought juices. I've done a bunch of EdWort's Apfelwein with Montrachet and found it to be much like a white wine, with little apple flavor, and bone dry. Now I want to make cider (will be my first attempt), and have it not end up too dry. Would like a yeast that naturally finishes with a little sweetness and retains good apple flavor. @RPh_Guy, how does Premier Cuvee compare with S-04 or Notty in that regard?

Cider is all simple, easily fermentable sugars. It always turns out dry unless you're trying really hard and do a lot more than just pitch some yeast and walk away.

To get a sweet cider, you have to chemically stabilize and/or pasteurize when dry. Then backsweeten.

Perceived sweetness can vary with apple variety and yeast choice, but I'm not an expert there.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It always turns out dry unless you're trying really hard and do a lot more than just pitch some yeast and walk away.

I figured you were going to start taking about keeving

Besides the methods you mention (stabilizing/pasteurizing/filtering & then sweetening) and keeving, you could also bottle pasteurize (sweeten, carbonate, and then pasteurize), exceed the alcohol tolerance of the yeast (i.e. apple wine or ice cider), or use a non-fermentable sweetener. You could also just cold crash and drink before fermentation completes.
Besides keeving these are all pretty simple methods.
Oh, and there's the méthode champenoise (bottle carbonate dry, and then stabilize and sweeten in the bottle), another advanced method.

Lots of ways to do things. You could even add sugar/sweetener at the time you drink it.

FYI Sorbitol is a non-fermentable sugar in apple juice; that's why it doesn't typically ferment bone dry and why sweetness varies.

 

[wasully]

I figured you were going to start taking about keeving

Well, I thought about it. I wrote a couple sentences about it, but then decided it was way out of scope for this thread and started over. I also don't know what I'm doing there. I should plant some french bittersweets.

I should get some land first.

FYI Sorbitol is a non-fermentable sugar in apple juice; that's why it doesn't typically ferment bone dry and why sweetness varies.

True, but there is little enough in it that cider will typically ferment all way to 1.000 or even less. Give or take a couple points. Pears have a ton more.

Although it'd be neat if there was varietal testing with that data. Maybe I'll do that when I have more money than sense(which will run hand in hand with having an orchard with an absurd number of fruit varieties). Maybe the Mt. Vernon Ag Station will start doing it if we ask nicely enough. By which I mean, if we bribe them. Excuse me, fund a research grant.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fermenting to 1.000 at 6-7% ABV means there is substantial residual sugar.

 

[Maylar]

Cider is all simple, easily fermentable sugars. It always turns out dry unless you're trying really hard and do a lot more than just pitch some yeast and walk away.

To get a sweet cider, you have to chemically stabilize and/or pasteurize when dry. Then backsweeten.

French cider makers use late season apples that are low in nitrogen, ferment cold with wild yeast, and allow it to stall from lack of nutrients. Semi sweet cider with no fuss.

Jolicoeur uses EC1118 at 50 degrees and racks off the lees a few times to slow down the ferment. His cider takes about 5 months to make and finishes off-dry.

S-04 at 60° will finish at 1.004.

 

[wasully]

Keeving and Jolicoeur's method were what I was talking about with "a lot more than just pitch some yeast and walk away."

Given how many keeves fail I dunno if I'd call it "no fuss". Both methods are pretty interventionist.

 

[venatorscribe]

I back sweeten my ciders and sparkling wines using Erythritol. Worth considering as it has fewer gut related issues.

 

[MiBeerMan]

was just watching a youtube with Michael of moonlight meadery. He mentions that he uses 71B for both his meads and ciders. I use it for my meads and wine but never for ciders. I currently have one on my cyser but would love to try it on my next cider. One thing he says homebrewers get wrong is fermenting at high temps. He said try to get must temp at 64 if at all possible. Anything around 72 and higher will produce the hotter taste

 

[DIYer]

I like Belle Saison for cider, but last week when I bottled my first batch of beer, I decided to throw some apple juice and FAJC on that yeast and see how it turns out. The yeast is Munich Classic (a top fermenter), and the cider has a nice krausen on it now.

Edited to add picture:

 

[Blacksmith1]

@DIYer is your avatar one of your brews?

 

[DIYer]

@DIYer is your avatar one of your brews?

Sadly, no. I have only done one batch of beer so far, and it is still carbing in bottles. The avatar photo is from a trip to Germany a few years ago. When I have some nice photos of my own brews, I will update my avatar.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Still looks very tasty

 

[AzOr]

I like Belle Saison for cider, but last week when I bottled my first batch of beer, I decided to throw some apple juice and FAJC on that yeast and see how it turns out. The yeast is Munich Classic (a top fermenter), and the cider has a nice krausen on it now.

Edited to add picture:

View attachment 630320

I've used that yeast twice. I was expecting a bit of character and didn't get. However, it made a pretty clean and tasty cider. I fermented on the lower end, prob low 70's.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've used that yeast twice. I was expecting a bit of character and didn't get. However, it made a pretty clean and tasty cider. I fermented on the lower end, prob low 70's.

Belle or Munich Classic?

 

[DIYer]

I've used that yeast twice. I was expecting a bit of character and didn't get. However, it made a pretty clean and tasty cider. I fermented on the lower end, prob low 70's.

Same question--which of the 2 yeasts I mentioned do you mean? And what do you mean by "character"? With Belle Saison, it's kept a nice hint of apple, and those were fermented at room temp--mid to upper 70s. The one I'm trying with Munich Classic now has been at 68-70 during the main ferment period. It's been a week, so I am going to test SG today (and taste it).

 

[AzOr]

Belle Saison.
It fermented really clean with plenty of apple character left.
One batch was blackberry with store bought AJ. The other was plain cider with pressed apples from Gravensteins and random neighbor apples.
Bc both were different styles it’s hard to compare to other strains of yeast I’ve used.
I initially used that yeast because my ferm chamber was being used for beer and I wanted a strain that could I leave in garage. The outside temps ended up being cooler than I expected.

 

[Jason Flair]

My go to cider yeast is WB-06.
It ferments clean and fast with no Sulphur.
It is also rated to 11% ABV so I also use it for my Cysers.
I just racked a Fuji/Gala Cyser and it went from 1.080-1.001. I will back sweeten it a little with honey, but I like them dry.
It leaves a nice apple flavor, even when it is dry.
If you want a sweet cider with that yeast, you need to stop it somehow or it will chew though it all.

 

[CatsCradle]

I was recently reading about how to make mead and read that some people use go-Ferm in conjunction with their dry yeast and additionally add Fermaid k and dap nutrients during specific points in the fermentation process. Is any of this required or recommended for cider?

 

[z-bob]

I was recently reading about how to make mead and read that some people use go-Ferm in conjunction with their dry yeast and additionally add Fermaid k and dap nutrients during specific points in the fermentation process. Is any of this required or recommended for cider?

Not required unless you are adding a ton of sugar. I usually add a little bit of nutrients (Fermax) and not much sugar at all, and it works well. The last batch I made, I didn't add any sugar and it turned out good too, just a little lower ABV.

 

[CatsCradle]

Not required unless you are adding a ton of sugar. I usually add a little bit of nutrients (Fermax) and not much sugar at all, and it works well. The last batch I made, I didn't add any sugar and it turned out good too, just a little lower ABV.

Ok sounds good! Another question I had was about Camden tablets. I’ve read that if someone were to use unpasteurized apple juice it’s a good idea to throw in a campden tablet prior to fermentation to kill wild/ unwanted yeast strains. I’ve also heard that campden tablets are used to backsweeten post fermentation. If I wanted to do a experimental 1 gal batch that was backsweetened would I put two tablets in one prior to fermentation then one post fermentation?

 

[doublejef]

Great thread, thanks for repoped it.
Sadly I Don't see much feedback about Lallemand M2 which seems to be a must try. Quite hard to find around here so if someone tasted it I would really appreciate to know if it worth to did until I get it.

 

[z-bob]

I just started some cider yesterday using Voss kveik yeast. I transferred a beer from a bucket to a carboy, ladled the trub into a mason jar and put it in the fridge, then poured 3 gallons of apple juice in the dirty bucket. It was visibly fermenting within 2 hours. (then I added a teaspoon of yeast nutrient, half a pound of sugar, and a gallon of cheap cranberry juice cocktail after checking to make sure it doesnt contain sorbate or benzoate) Our house is pretty hot, so it could be ready to bottle in a week or two. I'll move it to a carboy as soon as the foam dies down and the yeast starts to settle.

 

[AzOr]

Great thread, thanks for repoped it.
Sadly I Don't see much feedback about Lallemand M2 which seems to be a must try. Quite hard to find around here so if someone tasted it I would really appreciate to know if it worth to did until I get it.

I've been using Mangrove Jack's M2 with great results. I don't know if it is the same strain as you mentioned but I have heard it is. Maybe someone can chime in who knows.
MJ M2 has been my go to for 3 or 4 years and I love it. It produces a clean cider and the "appleness" isn't stripped away like other yeasts.

 

[AzOr]

I just started some cider yesterday using Voss kveik yeast. I transferred a beer from a bucket to a carboy, ladled the trub into a mason jar and put it in the fridge, then poured 3 gallons of apple juice in the dirty bucket. It was visibly fermenting within 2 hours. (then I added a teaspoon of yeast nutrient, half a pound of sugar, and a gallon of cheap cranberry juice cocktail after checking to make sure it doesnt contain sorbate or benzoate) Our house is pretty hot, so it could be ready to bottle in a week or two. I'll move it to a carboy as soon as the foam dies down and the yeast starts to settle.

Please keep us posted. I've been curious about kveik for both beer and cider. I think I'm the only beer brewer on this forum who hasn't tried a kveik strain yet.

Last season was my first for pressing my own apples and I primarily used Mangrove Jack's but I also experimented with Imperial Napoleon. So far I'm really digging this yeast. Within about two weeks it had dropped fairly clear and the taste was delicious. I noticed it had a more pronounced apple aroma and a little tropicallness to the taste. Also, it had a very complex finish. It's almost as if you put a drop of vinegar in a pint of cider. I'm pretty sure it wasn't infected but it did add to they complexity. I'll definitely be fermenting with it again this season.

In my experience with other yeasts, cider is very flabby and bland the first few months. Not with Napoleon. If I'm ever rushed to pump out a batch of cider in a few weeks, this would be my choice.

 

[z-bob]

I have used kveik yeast before in cider, and I don't remember much about it other than it worked well and was fast. I tend to remember what works and what doesn't, but don't remember things like "tasting notes" because I'm too stupid to write that stuff down. I always think I will remember it, but I don't

I had a carboy full of cider that should have been bottled in March (Cote des Blanc yeast, I *think*) but I was stuck out of state for a couple of months because covid; I finally bottled it last week. I didn't think it would have enough yeast left to carbonate, so I put a teaspoon of kveik trub in a half gallon of juice, and put it on a stirplate for a couple of days, with an airlock to keep it from getting too oxidized. The stirplate was just to keep the yeast in suspension. It quickly looked like cloudy orange juice from all the yeast. I turned it off for a few hours to settle, then poured the liquid into my cider and bottled it. It was carbonated in 2 days and I'm drinking it now. There is a lot of yeast in the bottles because that was way too much yeast, but they are plastic bottles and the yeast sticks to the plastic; it's easy to get a clean pour. (it might stick to glass too, I don't know.)

 

[doublejef]

I've been using Mangrove Jack's M2 with great results. I don't know if it is the same strain as you mentioned but I have heard it is. Maybe someone can chime in who knows.
MJ M2 has been my go to for 3 or 4 years and I love it. It produces a clean cider and the "appleness" isn't stripped away like other yeasts.

I made a quick search but It doesn't seems to be the same yeast.
M02 Mangrove Jack :
This cider yeast is a high ester-producing strain, imparting wonderful flavour depth, revealing the full fruit potential of the juice. Ciders fermented using this strain are exceptionally crisp, flavoursome and refreshing in taste. This highly robust yeast has good fructose assimilation and is capable of fermenting under challenging conditions and over a wide temperature range.


M2 Lallemand Enoferm :
Enoferm M2™ was isolated in Stellenbosch, South Africa and is from the Massey University culture collection (New Zealand), Culture No. M182. Neutral to low aroma production and does not dominate varietal character.
A general purpose yeast for both red and white wines. In white wines it can contribute significant mouthfeel, not attributed to glycerol production. R&D benchmarking showed that, Enoferm M2™ had a moderate production of succinic acid. However, winery feedback has revealed that it can, under certain conditions (currently unknown), produce high levels of succinic acid.

Sadly, tt seems to be nearly impossible to buy M2 from Lallemand in Central Europe.
FWIW, I already tryed M02 MJ but it was dry as hell and not very good. Crazy to see how different things can turn out depending of the people and the apples.

 

[wasully]

I was recently reading about how to make mead and read that some people use go-Ferm in conjunction with their dry yeast and additionally add Fermaid k and dap nutrients during specific points in the fermentation process. Is any of this required or recommended for cider?

Honey does not really contain any nutrients for the yeast. So mead will ferment a lot faster/healthier with some added nutrients. Considering just about every cider will ferment dry naturally, even low nutrient apples have enough nutrient. That doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't benefit from more, but it's also a widely reported rule of thumb that low nutrient, slow fermenting apples make the best cider.

Conversely, I have read that fermaid O(I think it was, maybe K) will recude the rhino farts some ciders give off.

Between the cost of honey and aging time, I feel like mead people have explored nutrients a lot more than other fermenting disciplines because dumping a batch hurts more. So, at least on the homebrew scale, they're the most devoted to babying the yeast for a consistently favorable product. Especially since adding nutrients is also supposed to reduce aging time.